Steel or engine mounts with more flex for KTM SXF 450 2019?

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6/12/2019 1:16 PM

Does anyone know if there exists engine mounts with more flex then stock aluminum?

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6/12/2019 2:41 PM
Edited Date/Time: 6/12/2019 2:41 PM

aees wrote:

Does anyone know if there exists engine mounts with more flex then stock aluminum?

Ml512 has co-started a company making alternative mounts. Contact him

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6/12/2019 9:17 PM

They are working on a set, here’s the Instagram link:
https://instagram.com/workschassislab?igshid=1wo5swhtcwt7z

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6/13/2019 3:54 PM

aees wrote:

Does anyone know if there exists engine mounts with more flex then stock aluminum?

You can drill holes in them like you see done on the Hondas...or you can reduce the bolt torque a little to give the mounts more flex (you'd have to check the torque every ride if you do that though)

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Many thanks to everyone helping me out this GNCC season: SRT Offroad, Acerbis, FCR Suspension, O'Neal Racing, Evans Waterless Coolants, Rekluse, Twin Air, Braking Brakes, Carbsport

Profile image credit Ken Hill Photography

6/27/2019 3:42 AM

Anyone running these yet? Reviews? Will the 2020 mounts have more flex? I only have 4 hrs on my 19 but, coming from a 16.5 the new chassis does seem a little stiffer.

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6/27/2019 6:07 AM

2020 is the same. Works Chassis said the KTM 450 mounts should be done soon.

I’ve put a small thing suspension shim between my mount and engine to let it slide a little better. Makes it feel a bit softer. Also went -2nm on the torque setting.

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6/27/2019 6:09 AM

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6/27/2019 9:20 AM

All that precision fine tuning....and yet the chains not even hooked up whistling whistling

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Tomac and/or Anderson for 2020.....

6/27/2019 11:16 AM

CarlinoJoeVideo wrote:

2020 is the same. Works Chassis said the KTM 450 mounts should be done soon.

I’ve put a small thing suspension shim between ...more

If the mounts are actually sliding, the bolt isn't doing its job, you may as well take the engine mount off as the bolt's going to loosen up soon enough as the bolt hole goes egg shaped.

And the actual resultant bolt tension from decreasing 2Nm will vary wildly depending if there's lube, loctite, anything else on the threads/bolt head, a new or used bolt, etc. etc.

The ENTIRE bike is flexing, from rear tire knobby all the way to front tire knobby, and everything in between.

I mean just about everything: Tire, tube, rim, spokes, hub, bearings, axle, swingarm, swingarm bolt, chassis, engine mounts, engine, steering bearings, steering stem, triple clamps, fork uppers, fork bushings, fork lowers, all through the front wheel again to the ground, all the bolts in the way along that path, and much more. And don't forget the suspension. Changing your tire pressure 1/10 of a psi will result in dramatically more flex change than adding a washer to the engine mount.

Not trying to pick on you, so please don't take it that way. But the placebo effect can be very strong, particularly with "flex" in rather small parts of the bike... When people make change that they believe will do this or that, they'll almost certainly come back from riding believing it worked. As a mechanical engineer, all this talk about flex drives me insane. laughing

Will a motor mount made from a different material and a big hole in it make a difference? Yes, but not a whole lot. You're talking on the order of a couple percent difference in a static sense when you take into account the stackup of everything that flexes on the entire bike. Now the loading is transient, so the flex comes at different times in different magnitudes from different areas of the bike, so things get a little blurry considering that. Which is likely why the motor mounts might make a noticable difference.

For a reference datapoint, our KTM triple clamps are 33% stiffer vertically (bump direction) alone. But when you consider the stackup from only the fork lower tubes through the forks to the chassis, that drops to only an 11% difference. And that doesn't include the fork lugs, hub, axle, spokes, rim tire/tube, chassis, and the entire rest of the bike's deflections. Or the suspension itself. Can you feel the difference? Yes. But not because it's stiffer in a "flex feel" sense, but because it better keeps the fork tubes aligned resulting is less binding throughout the stroke, and an overall softer feel.

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Billy Wight
Luxon MX
@LuxonMX
https://luxonmx.com
Motocross Components Engineered for Performance

6/27/2019 12:53 PM

This whole flex stuff cracks me up.... if you really want to see if you can notice a difference, take a friend and have him randomly swap out motor mounts in between motos... have them cover with duct tape so the rider cannot see what mounts are being used.

repeat for 4 motos, then do the same time at different tracks- have the friend take a log book where the rider is blind from the mount being used and note down the handling differences and get back to us with the unblinded data. LOL.

I once read at the peak of the Festina cycling team doping, Richard Virenuque heard about this new wonder drug for elite performance.... he complained to his trainers they wernt using it, so the trainers said they found some and gave him some vitamin pills. Of course, he was convinced with the new drug he would win, and of course he went out and blew the doors off everyone!

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6/28/2019 8:49 PM

Well, well... I just put my bike back together and for the head stays, I used blue lock tite and cranked the bolts with out a torque wrench... does this mean I won't win vet practice tomorrow????

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6/28/2019 9:14 PM

CarlinoJoeVideo wrote:

2020 is the same. Works Chassis said the KTM 450 mounts should be done soon.

I’ve put a small thing suspension shim between ...more

Luxon MX wrote:

If the mounts are actually sliding, the bolt isn't doing its job, you may as well take the engine mount off as the bolt's ...more

Between your comment and what Bruce372 wrote, you summed up my thoughts very well.

The average novice guy who rides every other weekend doesn't even check his sag but once or twice a year and many of them don't check their tire pressure before every moto, if they do at all when they get to the track.

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6/28/2019 11:03 PM

Apologies if I was coming across as a dick. I've become very skeptical in life lol

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6/28/2019 11:41 PM

CarlinoJoeVideo wrote:

2020 is the same. Works Chassis said the KTM 450 mounts should be done soon.

I’ve put a small thing suspension shim between ...more

Luxon MX wrote:

If the mounts are actually sliding, the bolt isn't doing its job, you may as well take the engine mount off as the bolt's ...more

The mounts come from the factory with egg shape hole on the end that mounts to the engine, I imagine this is to give it front to back movement. You can see the friction wear in the photo I posted. So maybe “flex” isn’t the correct word, I add the shim to let the mount slide easier, giving me the effect of a softer feel.

Placebo or not if it feels better then it’s working the rider.

Shims, engine mounts and torque settings... Don’t knock it till you try it. I’ve been very surprised on little things that change the feel of the bike.

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6/29/2019 10:41 AM

I just read Keifers test report, he stated the chassis takes about 10hrs to loosen up some....I have 5hrs on my bike, definitely feels stiffer than my 16.5 but I”m coming off a broken leg & 250 2t , so I”m a bit out of shape...I check/adjust my tire pressure all throughout the day when a I ride....I was having a hard time getting the bike to settle in tight rutted turns, sag at 105mm and cone valve forks set at 2nd line in clamps, I always ran these forks on the first line on my 16.5, so I slid the forks down to the first line and it seemed to handle the rutted turns better...that is the opposite of what I thought it would do.......

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6/29/2019 1:07 PM

sandman768 wrote:

I just read Keifers test report, he stated the chassis takes about 10hrs to loosen up some....I have 5hrs on my bike, ...more

Keefer is a very good rider and in general a great tester. That said, he has some interesting opinions not based in reality... Key examples are a chassis somehow "loosening up" after a few hours. And the "floating" axle vs fixed axle concept (no one is feeling that difference and there's no "floating" involved). The whole bike will break in over the course of a few hours - bushings seating in, etc., but the chassis itself certainly isn't.

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Billy Wight
Luxon MX
@LuxonMX
https://luxonmx.com
Motocross Components Engineered for Performance

6/29/2019 1:25 PM

CarlinoJoeVideo wrote:

The mounts come from the factory with egg shape hole on the end that mounts to the engine, I imagine this is to give it front ...more

I would hope the factory mounts have ovalized holes to account for tolerance variations, not to allow for movement as the implementation otherwise is garbage (aluminum on aluminum is a horrific bearing, bolt torque vs axial tension is all over the place, etc.). Your shim washers would certainly help that, and I don't doubt that if your bolts are loose enough to allow slippage that you'll feel it, but that's a VERY inconsistent method af achieving compliance in the chassis. There will be massive hysteresis due to all the friction involved shims or not.

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Billy Wight
Luxon MX
@LuxonMX
https://luxonmx.com
Motocross Components Engineered for Performance

6/29/2019 3:55 PM

Luxon MX wrote:

I would hope the factory mounts have ovalized holes to account for tolerance variations, not to allow for movement as the ...more

I agree 100%. Most bikes have used oval holes for engine/head mounts for decades. Solid mounts are solid mounts....There should be no “slippage” in between parts.

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Tomac and/or Anderson for 2020.....

6/29/2019 4:59 PM

CarlinoJoeVideo wrote:

The mounts come from the factory with egg shape hole on the end that mounts to the engine, I imagine this is to give it front ...more

Luxon MX wrote:

I would hope the factory mounts have ovalized holes to account for tolerance variations, not to allow for movement as the ...more

BobPA wrote:

I agree 100%. Most bikes have used oval holes for engine/head mounts for decades. Solid mounts are solid mounts....There ...more

Maybe my terminology is not correct.

I was offering the OP an option to gain comfort on the 19/20 frame, since there’s no mounts available. Give it a shot and let us know if you feel a change.

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6/30/2019 1:43 PM
Edited Date/Time: 6/30/2019 1:44 PM

They are oval because with time the frame stretches, a lot. We are talking several mm in terms of fixation point. And of course frames will feel better with time. It is partly the material softening and partly fixation points (holes incl bolts) that gets rubbed in.

Went through a book from a multi time world champion, when he was racing for a factory team at one point they suddenly could not close the door to his van when a practise bike was loaded up to be taken to the workshop. The new bike went in fine but not the practice bike. They took a part the bike and measured the frame and it was if I remember correctly 10mm longer, the frame itself just.

Steve mattes has mentioned that the Yamaha frames stretched around 6mm in first couple of rides when he was wrenching back in 2000.

I know for myself when I move parts between a new and old bike from same generation that it can be quiet tricky to fit certain parts. Typically one place you see it after 100h+ is that the gap for the exhaust pipe does not close down as it does when it is new (right around the shock). 3-4mm difference. Take a new pipe and same problem. Mount old pipe on new bike, no gap.

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6/30/2019 4:15 PM

sandman768 wrote:

I just read Keifers test report, he stated the chassis takes about 10hrs to loosen up some....I have 5hrs on my bike, ...more

2 things helped my bike with ruts. Ride engineering performance link and sag set to 103 made a good improvement. The showa steering damper made the biggest improvement though. Either the bolt on deal from RE or weld a bung to the frame for it.

On topic of mounts, do carbon fiber mounts let it flex more or less? They are pretty simple on my bike and was thinking about making a set of carbon ones for it.

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2018 KTM 250sx
Instagram CamaroAJ

6/30/2019 11:48 PM

sandman768 wrote:

I just read Keifers test report, he stated the chassis takes about 10hrs to loosen up some....I have 5hrs on my bike, ...more

AJ565 wrote:

2 things helped my bike with ruts. Ride engineering performance link and sag set to 103 made a good improvement. The showa ...more

With the carbon mounts it depends how thick you make it. There’s a euro company who has them and right now they have them stiffer then stock. I emailed them and they can make any thickness you’d like.

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7/1/2019 8:21 AM

AJ565 wrote:

2 things helped my bike with ruts. Ride engineering performance link and sag set to 103 made a good improvement. The showa ...more

As already stated, thickness makes a big difference. But that's true of any material, not just carbon fiber. And so does the overall geometry. You can make an aluminum engine mount way stiffer than steel by changing the thickness and geometry. You can also alter the stiffness in different directions.

Any real change in feel is going to be altered by three primary modes of flex in the engine mounts - longitudinal bending, lateral bending, and torsional bending. The latter being the most important, or at least the one being the most addressed, which is evident by looking at the mount geometries (stock and aftermarket). By changing the geometry, you can easily reduce stiffness in torsion and lateral directions while increasing it in the longitudinal direction. So it's not as straight-forward as saying one mount is stiffer than the other since there's direction involved.

Now something that's carbon fiber specific is the importance of fiber orientation. This seems to be overlooked in the motocross industry, which is a bit silly really. It speaks to the rather basic level of engineering being applied in the moto world relative to things like auto racing, aerospace, and even bicycles.

Most people are familiar with the "standard" 1x1 plain carbon fiber weave. It's the generic look to carbon that everyone seems to think is really cool. Pretty much any carbon motocross part is using this weave. But the beauty of carbon is the availability of different fiber patterns that can be used to tune stiffness in different directions. Different weaves are available holding the fibers in different direction and a unidirectional "weave" is all the fibers oriented in one direction. With carbon it's possible to make a part incredibly stiff in one direction and rather flexible in another. When companies catch on to this and actually understand it, performance will improve rapidly.

But for now, particularly with engine mounts, I have yet to see any real engineering applied. It's copy stock, make a big hole in it, maybe change the fronts to titanium, and most importantly anodize everything a cool color. They're certainly testing different versions and iterating based on that, which is an engineering process. But there seems to be a lack of engineering fundamentals being understood. Stiffness is certainly changed, but in what direction? How much? How do these changes affect the ride of the bike?

Makes me want to make some engine mounts... But I've got too much on my plate as it is!

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Billy Wight
Luxon MX
@LuxonMX
https://luxonmx.com
Motocross Components Engineered for Performance

7/1/2019 10:02 AM

sandman768 wrote:

I just read Keifers test report, he stated the chassis takes about 10hrs to loosen up some....I have 5hrs on my bike, ...more

AJ565 wrote:

2 things helped my bike with ruts. Ride engineering performance link and sag set to 103 made a good improvement. The showa ...more

Luxon MX wrote:

As already stated, thickness makes a big difference. But that's true of any material, not just carbon fiber. And so does the ...more

Good information. I was planning on making a copy of my stock steel ones in terms of shape and thickness out of some carbon I have from building my rear bumper for my Camaro. I have 2x2 3k and plain weave 12k along with 2mm core material. I was going to layer the 12k in alternating directions 45*'s from the previous layer and sandwich it in the 2x2 3k. I think it will take about 10 layers to get close to the thickness (rough guessing based off the thickness and layers I used in my bumper. That thick and as small as they are I'd just wet out each layer and clamp them between mold board instead of vacuum infusing. Also keep in mind that I have a 2 stroke so the mounts are a little longer and flatter than the 4 stroke.

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2018 KTM 250sx
Instagram CamaroAJ

8/16/2019 8:54 PM

Bruce372 wrote:

Well, well... I just put my bike back together and for the head stays, I used blue lock tite and cranked the bolts with out a ...more

It means you may struggle at first so what you should do is wildly adjust your clickers in ways that make no sense and go back out and ride your first Pro Vet Practice moto without finding put how the changes will affect the bike .
..make sure you get the holeshot or a good start at least so you can fade drastically in practice moto 1.
If anyone asks you what happened...... blame it on setup setup setup...

Before practice moto 2 ....(this is key) make sure NOBODY is watching you and secretly go back to your base setting "Home Base" as MC used to call it. Make sure you don't tell anyone! (Also key) I mean you're trying to win practice moto here so don't give away secrets ........yet.
Line up for Vet PRO Practice moto 2 which starts whenever you're done recovering and telling lies back at the truck usually...... get yourself a top 5 start, put your head down (but still look ahead) and charge to the end of practice moto 2 which varies between 2-10 laps depending on physical conditioning. When it's over....look around and do a fist pump because you won! When you get back to the truck .....proceed to tell anyone that you can, "I went back to my base setting and it made all the difference"

This is the key to winning Pr Vet Practice moto racing. laughing laughing

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8/16/2019 9:24 PM

Bruce372 wrote:

Well, well... I just put my bike back together and for the head stays, I used blue lock tite and cranked the bolts with out a ...more

Lightning78 wrote:

It means you may struggle at first so what you should do is wildly adjust your clickers in ways that make no sense and go back ...more

😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂

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3/5/2020 10:56 AM

We developed these for this application:
A1 "EXC Soft" & "A2-EXC-R Intermediate Flex"
https://www.cdgtech.com/product/ktm-engine-hangers/

And we've developed some VERY stiff mounts for the likes of BB4...'cuase, he get's what he wants! (A4 & A5)


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Nobody ever told me, I found out for myself. You've got to believe in foolish miracles. It's not how you play the game, it's if you win or lose. You can choose. Don't confuse. Win or lose. It's up to you!

3/5/2020 11:03 AM

Here’s a set of A5s mounted on Blake’s bike at San Diego
Photo

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Nobody ever told me, I found out for myself. You've got to believe in foolish miracles. It's not how you play the game, it's if you win or lose. You can choose. Don't confuse. Win or lose. It's up to you!

3/5/2020 1:31 PM

I tested the 2016 steel mounts on my 2018 sxf 450, and fuck, the bike got way to harsh. Every little braking bumps felt twice as sharp and big.

Would love to try stiffer than the aluminum ones.

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3/6/2020 1:05 AM

I can notice a flat tire, after a few corners.
smile

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