KYB insert vs Cone Valve

dbdad
Posts
5
Joined
12/27/2019
Location
Franklinton, NC US
5/30/2022 5:34pm
Just read a thread elsewhere that said the Dal Saggio spring conversion kit is 2.5lbs (!!!!) heavier than the MX Tech Lucky Gen 1 kit. Wonder...
Just read a thread elsewhere that said the Dal Saggio spring conversion kit is 2.5lbs (!!!!) heavier than the MX Tech Lucky Gen 1 kit. Wonder what the KYB conversion weighs in at? All coil/oil will be heavier than a stock AER, and adding weight in the forks can really impact feel and handling.
Yep and I realize this thread is 2 years old but the topic is still relevant. While I realize most love the KYB kit, after riding my 22 350 SX-F with the KYB kit I realized those 2.8 pounds of added weight is not something I can get used to nor do I like the stiffness in certain situations. What’s odd is that I absolutely love KYB on my 22 YZ250F (and did on my 2019 YZ250F) as it feels like I’m riding on clouds in all jumps or chop. I wanted to love the KYB kit but to be honest the 22 WP fork isn’t bad and I loved how light it feels. While not a pro, the added weight of the spring fork on the KTM was noticeable to me. Maybe I just liked the way the front end felt when lighter but one things for sure KYB on the KTM will never feel as good as KYB on the Yamaha IMO.
AJ565
Posts
2075
Joined
3/12/2012
Location
San Antonio, TX US
5/30/2022 6:14pm
Just read a thread elsewhere that said the Dal Saggio spring conversion kit is 2.5lbs (!!!!) heavier than the MX Tech Lucky Gen 1 kit. Wonder...
Just read a thread elsewhere that said the Dal Saggio spring conversion kit is 2.5lbs (!!!!) heavier than the MX Tech Lucky Gen 1 kit. Wonder what the KYB conversion weighs in at? All coil/oil will be heavier than a stock AER, and adding weight in the forks can really impact feel and handling.
dbdad wrote:
Yep and I realize this thread is 2 years old but the topic is still relevant. While I realize most love the KYB kit, after riding...
Yep and I realize this thread is 2 years old but the topic is still relevant. While I realize most love the KYB kit, after riding my 22 350 SX-F with the KYB kit I realized those 2.8 pounds of added weight is not something I can get used to nor do I like the stiffness in certain situations. What’s odd is that I absolutely love KYB on my 22 YZ250F (and did on my 2019 YZ250F) as it feels like I’m riding on clouds in all jumps or chop. I wanted to love the KYB kit but to be honest the 22 WP fork isn’t bad and I loved how light it feels. While not a pro, the added weight of the spring fork on the KTM was noticeable to me. Maybe I just liked the way the front end felt when lighter but one things for sure KYB on the KTM will never feel as good as KYB on the Yamaha IMO.
I love the cones on the front of my ‘22 350. In terms of feeling stiff retorque the lower clamp bolts to 9nm instead of the factor 12nm spec and you’ll feel a difference.
2
bvm111
Posts
9283
Joined
7/1/2008
Location
Las Vegas, NV US
6/2/2022 10:03pm
Just read a thread elsewhere that said the Dal Saggio spring conversion kit is 2.5lbs (!!!!) heavier than the MX Tech Lucky Gen 1 kit. Wonder...
Just read a thread elsewhere that said the Dal Saggio spring conversion kit is 2.5lbs (!!!!) heavier than the MX Tech Lucky Gen 1 kit. Wonder what the KYB conversion weighs in at? All coil/oil will be heavier than a stock AER, and adding weight in the forks can really impact feel and handling.
dbdad wrote:
Yep and I realize this thread is 2 years old but the topic is still relevant. While I realize most love the KYB kit, after riding...
Yep and I realize this thread is 2 years old but the topic is still relevant. While I realize most love the KYB kit, after riding my 22 350 SX-F with the KYB kit I realized those 2.8 pounds of added weight is not something I can get used to nor do I like the stiffness in certain situations. What’s odd is that I absolutely love KYB on my 22 YZ250F (and did on my 2019 YZ250F) as it feels like I’m riding on clouds in all jumps or chop. I wanted to love the KYB kit but to be honest the 22 WP fork isn’t bad and I loved how light it feels. While not a pro, the added weight of the spring fork on the KTM was noticeable to me. Maybe I just liked the way the front end felt when lighter but one things for sure KYB on the KTM will never feel as good as KYB on the Yamaha IMO.
AJ565 wrote:
I love the cones on the front of my ‘22 350. In terms of feeling stiff retorque the lower clamp bolts to 9nm instead of the...
I love the cones on the front of my ‘22 350. In terms of feeling stiff retorque the lower clamp bolts to 9nm instead of the factor 12nm spec and you’ll feel a difference.
I went down to 10Nm on my WP lower clamps and it felt a little vague in some corners so I bumped up to 11Nm and that has been great for me. I did find it wise to check/re-torque before every ride day after finding inconsistent readings when checking following my rides… i have a quick sequence now where i hit all my front end 10mm bolts so it takes like 2 minutes!
1
Rider 5280
Posts
2006
Joined
11/9/2011
Location
Denver Metro, CO US
6/2/2022 11:33pm
dbdad wrote:
Yep and I realize this thread is 2 years old but the topic is still relevant. While I realize most love the KYB kit, after riding...
Yep and I realize this thread is 2 years old but the topic is still relevant. While I realize most love the KYB kit, after riding my 22 350 SX-F with the KYB kit I realized those 2.8 pounds of added weight is not something I can get used to nor do I like the stiffness in certain situations. What’s odd is that I absolutely love KYB on my 22 YZ250F (and did on my 2019 YZ250F) as it feels like I’m riding on clouds in all jumps or chop. I wanted to love the KYB kit but to be honest the 22 WP fork isn’t bad and I loved how light it feels. While not a pro, the added weight of the spring fork on the KTM was noticeable to me. Maybe I just liked the way the front end felt when lighter but one things for sure KYB on the KTM will never feel as good as KYB on the Yamaha IMO.
AJ565 wrote:
I love the cones on the front of my ‘22 350. In terms of feeling stiff retorque the lower clamp bolts to 9nm instead of the...
I love the cones on the front of my ‘22 350. In terms of feeling stiff retorque the lower clamp bolts to 9nm instead of the factor 12nm spec and you’ll feel a difference.
bvm111 wrote:
I went down to 10Nm on my WP lower clamps and it felt a little vague in some corners so I bumped up to 11Nm and...
I went down to 10Nm on my WP lower clamps and it felt a little vague in some corners so I bumped up to 11Nm and that has been great for me. I did find it wise to check/re-torque before every ride day after finding inconsistent readings when checking following my rides… i have a quick sequence now where i hit all my front end 10mm bolts so it takes like 2 minutes!
And how often are the bolts needing additional torque after you check them?

The Shop

AJ565
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2075
Joined
3/12/2012
Location
San Antonio, TX US
6/3/2022 12:35pm
bvm111 wrote:
I went down to 10Nm on my WP lower clamps and it felt a little vague in some corners so I bumped up to 11Nm and...
I went down to 10Nm on my WP lower clamps and it felt a little vague in some corners so I bumped up to 11Nm and that has been great for me. I did find it wise to check/re-torque before every ride day after finding inconsistent readings when checking following my rides… i have a quick sequence now where i hit all my front end 10mm bolts so it takes like 2 minutes!
That low of torque we can talk about calibration of the torque wrench it’s self. We’re talking 27in. Lbs. different between 9nm and 12nm which isn’t a lot so how old the wench is, when was it calibrated last, how it’s stored and handled all can change that. So there is a chance that your 11nm is 9nm or even 15nm. With that logic maybe when Keefer tested the 9nm his wrench was actually torquing 10 or 11nm.

I do know when Reed was on KTM with the KYB internals in the WP tubes they bumped up the torque a lot to try and stiffen the front end up so the torque for sure plays into the feel.
1
FGR01
Posts
5089
Joined
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Location
AZ US
Fantasy
1334th
6/3/2022 12:59pm
bvm111 wrote:
I went down to 10Nm on my WP lower clamps and it felt a little vague in some corners so I bumped up to 11Nm and...
I went down to 10Nm on my WP lower clamps and it felt a little vague in some corners so I bumped up to 11Nm and that has been great for me. I did find it wise to check/re-torque before every ride day after finding inconsistent readings when checking following my rides… i have a quick sequence now where i hit all my front end 10mm bolts so it takes like 2 minutes!
AJ565 wrote:
That low of torque we can talk about calibration of the torque wrench it’s self. We’re talking 27in. Lbs. different between 9nm and 12nm which isn’t...
That low of torque we can talk about calibration of the torque wrench it’s self. We’re talking 27in. Lbs. different between 9nm and 12nm which isn’t a lot so how old the wench is, when was it calibrated last, how it’s stored and handled all can change that. So there is a chance that your 11nm is 9nm or even 15nm. With that logic maybe when Keefer tested the 9nm his wrench was actually torquing 10 or 11nm.

I do know when Reed was on KTM with the KYB internals in the WP tubes they bumped up the torque a lot to try and stiffen the front end up so the torque for sure plays into the feel.
Not to mention temperature. At those low of values, the temp of the wrench and the components must come into play. For example, let that torque wrench in a hot van or in the sun here in the SW and the heat has to affect the mechanical function and value of the readings. Would be interesting to do comparisons back to back between a wrench taken out of the fridge (typical north US fall temps) and one left in the sun in AZ where you can barely touch the thing.
3
AJ565
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2075
Joined
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Location
San Antonio, TX US
6/3/2022 4:13pm Edited Date/Time 6/3/2022 4:14pm
bvm111 wrote:
I went down to 10Nm on my WP lower clamps and it felt a little vague in some corners so I bumped up to 11Nm and...
I went down to 10Nm on my WP lower clamps and it felt a little vague in some corners so I bumped up to 11Nm and that has been great for me. I did find it wise to check/re-torque before every ride day after finding inconsistent readings when checking following my rides… i have a quick sequence now where i hit all my front end 10mm bolts so it takes like 2 minutes!
AJ565 wrote:
That low of torque we can talk about calibration of the torque wrench it’s self. We’re talking 27in. Lbs. different between 9nm and 12nm which isn’t...
That low of torque we can talk about calibration of the torque wrench it’s self. We’re talking 27in. Lbs. different between 9nm and 12nm which isn’t a lot so how old the wench is, when was it calibrated last, how it’s stored and handled all can change that. So there is a chance that your 11nm is 9nm or even 15nm. With that logic maybe when Keefer tested the 9nm his wrench was actually torquing 10 or 11nm.

I do know when Reed was on KTM with the KYB internals in the WP tubes they bumped up the torque a lot to try and stiffen the front end up so the torque for sure plays into the feel.
FGR01 wrote:
Not to mention temperature. At those low of values, the temp of the wrench and the components must come into play. For example, let that torque...
Not to mention temperature. At those low of values, the temp of the wrench and the components must come into play. For example, let that torque wrench in a hot van or in the sun here in the SW and the heat has to affect the mechanical function and value of the readings. Would be interesting to do comparisons back to back between a wrench taken out of the fridge (typical north US fall temps) and one left in the sun in AZ where you can barely touch the thing.
I wonder how that effects the digital ones. All of my torque wrenches are snap on. Of my two 3/8” wrenches one does torque and one does torque plus degrees. I’ll have to remember to bring the other one home and see how they stack against each other.
FGR01
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6/3/2022 6:48pm
AJ565 wrote:
That low of torque we can talk about calibration of the torque wrench it’s self. We’re talking 27in. Lbs. different between 9nm and 12nm which isn’t...
That low of torque we can talk about calibration of the torque wrench it’s self. We’re talking 27in. Lbs. different between 9nm and 12nm which isn’t a lot so how old the wench is, when was it calibrated last, how it’s stored and handled all can change that. So there is a chance that your 11nm is 9nm or even 15nm. With that logic maybe when Keefer tested the 9nm his wrench was actually torquing 10 or 11nm.

I do know when Reed was on KTM with the KYB internals in the WP tubes they bumped up the torque a lot to try and stiffen the front end up so the torque for sure plays into the feel.
FGR01 wrote:
Not to mention temperature. At those low of values, the temp of the wrench and the components must come into play. For example, let that torque...
Not to mention temperature. At those low of values, the temp of the wrench and the components must come into play. For example, let that torque wrench in a hot van or in the sun here in the SW and the heat has to affect the mechanical function and value of the readings. Would be interesting to do comparisons back to back between a wrench taken out of the fridge (typical north US fall temps) and one left in the sun in AZ where you can barely touch the thing.
AJ565 wrote:
I wonder how that effects the digital ones. All of my torque wrenches are snap on. Of my two 3/8” wrenches one does torque and one...
I wonder how that effects the digital ones. All of my torque wrenches are snap on. Of my two 3/8” wrenches one does torque and one does torque plus degrees. I’ll have to remember to bring the other one home and see how they stack against each other.
I just did some googling about Torque wrenches and temperature. A good rabbit hole to run down on a friday night if you want some crazy techno geek talk! Let's just say, how many MX'ers are "exercising" their torque wrench at least 10 times before taking every reading? HA!
3
Leeham
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Rochester, WA US
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6/4/2022 12:31am
I try not to get to wrapped up in torque values of bolts for chassis feel. That shit would have me in the pits way too long/often instead out on the track actually putting in time. If I can hit bumps, turn, and go as fast as I am willing. Then thats all that matters. HOWEVER, I do like different engine mounts. Tried them on my last bike. Pretty cool.
bvm111
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Las Vegas, NV US
6/9/2022 11:48pm
AJ565 wrote:
I love the cones on the front of my ‘22 350. In terms of feeling stiff retorque the lower clamp bolts to 9nm instead of the...
I love the cones on the front of my ‘22 350. In terms of feeling stiff retorque the lower clamp bolts to 9nm instead of the factor 12nm spec and you’ll feel a difference.
bvm111 wrote:
I went down to 10Nm on my WP lower clamps and it felt a little vague in some corners so I bumped up to 11Nm and...
I went down to 10Nm on my WP lower clamps and it felt a little vague in some corners so I bumped up to 11Nm and that has been great for me. I did find it wise to check/re-torque before every ride day after finding inconsistent readings when checking following my rides… i have a quick sequence now where i hit all my front end 10mm bolts so it takes like 2 minutes!
Rider 5280 wrote:
And how often are the bolts needing additional torque after you check them?
i just torque them prior to every ride and have it on my pre ride check list. i’ve noticed the lower bolt on the lower clamp is the one that seem to back out just a touch.

To those asking about my torque wrenches, I have multiple, they aren’t cheap, two are actual Nm torque wrenches and I have a digital torque “calibration” tool that i mount in my vice so i check them regularly enough. I am comfortable with how they perform and understand there can be a variance… so thank you, captain obvious!

With that said … I have tested many torques at different tracks and i prefer 11Nm in the bottom clamp on my WP split clamps as an overall setting. Tracks that are tighter i’ll go to 12Nm and more open flowing tracks like LACR 11Nm.
1
Sandusky26
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Eastern, NC US
6/10/2022 9:14am
bvm111 wrote:
I went down to 10Nm on my WP lower clamps and it felt a little vague in some corners so I bumped up to 11Nm and...
I went down to 10Nm on my WP lower clamps and it felt a little vague in some corners so I bumped up to 11Nm and that has been great for me. I did find it wise to check/re-torque before every ride day after finding inconsistent readings when checking following my rides… i have a quick sequence now where i hit all my front end 10mm bolts so it takes like 2 minutes!
Rider 5280 wrote:
And how often are the bolts needing additional torque after you check them?
bvm111 wrote:
i just torque them prior to every ride and have it on my pre ride check list. i’ve noticed the lower bolt on the lower clamp...
i just torque them prior to every ride and have it on my pre ride check list. i’ve noticed the lower bolt on the lower clamp is the one that seem to back out just a touch.

To those asking about my torque wrenches, I have multiple, they aren’t cheap, two are actual Nm torque wrenches and I have a digital torque “calibration” tool that i mount in my vice so i check them regularly enough. I am comfortable with how they perform and understand there can be a variance… so thank you, captain obvious!

With that said … I have tested many torques at different tracks and i prefer 11Nm in the bottom clamp on my WP split clamps as an overall setting. Tracks that are tighter i’ll go to 12Nm and more open flowing tracks like LACR 11Nm.
I hate to be this guy, but could you recommend a good torque wrench that you can trust and doesn't break the bank? I have 2 of them now, one for foot pounds and the other for inch pounds.
MKMX
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402
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3/3/2021
Location
Western Australia, WA AU
6/10/2022 3:32pm
Rider 5280 wrote:
And how often are the bolts needing additional torque after you check them?
bvm111 wrote:
i just torque them prior to every ride and have it on my pre ride check list. i’ve noticed the lower bolt on the lower clamp...
i just torque them prior to every ride and have it on my pre ride check list. i’ve noticed the lower bolt on the lower clamp is the one that seem to back out just a touch.

To those asking about my torque wrenches, I have multiple, they aren’t cheap, two are actual Nm torque wrenches and I have a digital torque “calibration” tool that i mount in my vice so i check them regularly enough. I am comfortable with how they perform and understand there can be a variance… so thank you, captain obvious!

With that said … I have tested many torques at different tracks and i prefer 11Nm in the bottom clamp on my WP split clamps as an overall setting. Tracks that are tighter i’ll go to 12Nm and more open flowing tracks like LACR 11Nm.
Sandusky26 wrote:
I hate to be this guy, but could you recommend a good torque wrench that you can trust and doesn't break the bank? I have 2...
I hate to be this guy, but could you recommend a good torque wrench that you can trust and doesn't break the bank? I have 2 of them now, one for foot pounds and the other for inch pounds.
Norbar are fantastic torque wrenches and they make a variety of drive sizes and ranges. I have used a few over the years, both professionally and at home and they hold up well.

I’m a stout fan of snapon for torque wrenches - but norbar would be my go to second option.
1
Luxon MX
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6/12/2022 9:07am
Precise and accurate torque wrenches are important, but only a part of the challenge. At the end of the day, you're not looking for consistent torque, but consistent tension in the bolt, which creates a consistent clamping load.

The big variable that you don't have much control over is friction. Unless you're using a brand new, clean bolt (and clean threads), the friction level and resulting clamping load can be all over the place, even at the same torque level. So if you're just re-using the same bolt every time and aren't thoroughly cleaning it every time, the difference between the 10 and 11 Nm of torque is lost in the noise of the uncertainty in the torque to tension relationship.

For the triple clamp pinch bolts, though, specifically the lower clamp, you really want the lowest torque (lowest clamping load) you can have without any slipping. Adding torque beyond that is only increasing the harshness of the fork as it's increasing binding as the bushing passes through the triple clamp area. You can run the same low torque at all tracks, but change your compression damping to get the same effect, but it will be far more consistent than changing the bolt torque.
bvm111
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6/16/2022 9:58pm
I guess i’m the lucky guy that can tell the difference in 10 and 11Nm. At 10 Nm the front end feel was inconsistent in tight inside lines especially while standing through the turn with my head over the crossbar/ fender, I felt 12 was still a little harsh and prefer the 11Nm. I started testing this when Brent was helping the dutch kid rick elz last year for the nationals and he liked 9Nm.

I respect your input, products, and participation on Vital Billy and will purchase from you in the future but using blanket statements such as use new bolts or not cleaning properly is assumptive that I am just slapping my motorcycle together with dirty bolts, ace hardware ratchets from 1981 or not be able to feel differences in what I have tested myself. I have also noticed that my lowest clamp bolt loosens slightly after a day of riding and ensure that I check the clamps on my pre ride bolt check along with the top clamp pinch bolt after the input you provided the “ktm split in half” thread.

So on one hand I thank you but at the same time please don’t discount others experience or input, I am active military and I always say the one that usually comes up with best solution is the lowest private on the battle field .
6
Luxon MX
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6/17/2022 8:51am
bvm111 wrote:
I guess i’m the lucky guy that can tell the difference in 10 and 11Nm. At 10 Nm the front end feel was inconsistent in tight...
I guess i’m the lucky guy that can tell the difference in 10 and 11Nm. At 10 Nm the front end feel was inconsistent in tight inside lines especially while standing through the turn with my head over the crossbar/ fender, I felt 12 was still a little harsh and prefer the 11Nm. I started testing this when Brent was helping the dutch kid rick elz last year for the nationals and he liked 9Nm.

I respect your input, products, and participation on Vital Billy and will purchase from you in the future but using blanket statements such as use new bolts or not cleaning properly is assumptive that I am just slapping my motorcycle together with dirty bolts, ace hardware ratchets from 1981 or not be able to feel differences in what I have tested myself. I have also noticed that my lowest clamp bolt loosens slightly after a day of riding and ensure that I check the clamps on my pre ride bolt check along with the top clamp pinch bolt after the input you provided the “ktm split in half” thread.

So on one hand I thank you but at the same time please don’t discount others experience or input, I am active military and I always say the one that usually comes up with best solution is the lowest private on the battle field .
I wasn't trying to discount your abilities, just pointing out some things. The actual affect of torque changes is rather complex and wildly misunderstood by most people. One of the few places where it actually makes a difference in feel is on the lower triple clamp bolts, so no issue with that.

Let's pretend for a bit that you have a precise and perfectly accurate torque wrench and you perfectly apply the same torque consistently every time. Also, let's pretend that the bolt you use and the mating threads are perfectly clean and dry every time. (You don't, and it isn't, on all accounts, but for the sake of argument...) The only thing that "changes" is you re-use the same bolt every time.

The massive thing you don't have control over is friction. What actually matters is clamping load on the fork tube; torque would be completely irrelevant, but it's a convenient way to APPROXIMATE the clamping load. It's approximate as it's directly related to the amount of friction present. You get different clamping loads (and different feel while riding) for the same torque value if the friction changes. And if you re-use the bolt multiple times, the coating wears off, the threads mate together better (either a smoother fit or they gall and get tighter), etc. So the friction, and the resulting clamping load is always changing to some extent, sometimes by a lot. You can read more about that here:
https://www.nord-lock.com/insights/bolting-tips/2020/reusing-bolted-joi…

Now, taking that into account, plus the fact that nothing is perfectly accurate, repeatable, etc., and it's clear that the actual clamping load will vary because of all that. 1 Nm of change on 10 Nm is only 10%. If all that uncertainty only adds up to +/- 5% (often stated as the accuracy of the torque wrench itself ignoring every other uncertainty), then what's the real difference between 10 and 11 Nm of torque?

Regardless of all that, the reason that you can feel a difference at different clamping loads on the lower triple clamps has nothing to do with changes in "flex". It's because at a higher clamping load, you distort the fork tube more, which causes binding and harshness as the inner bushing passes through that spot. It essentially stiffens up the suspension. You can achieve that same thing, but much more consistently with some suspension adjustments, all while maintaining more plush suspension.
1
FGR01
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6/17/2022 1:53pm
Has anyone ever taken an empty fork tube and triple clamp, torqued to 10, 11, 12, 13..etc, and at each setting actually measured the bore inside the tube to verify and quantify this distortion/compression of the tube that we assume occurs?

Are these tubes capable of being compressed to the point of fork harshness, yet returning to their non-harsh dimension when the torque is reduced?
1
Luxon MX
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6/17/2022 3:56pm
FGR01 wrote:
Has anyone ever taken an empty fork tube and triple clamp, torqued to 10, 11, 12, 13..etc, and at each setting actually measured the bore inside...
Has anyone ever taken an empty fork tube and triple clamp, torqued to 10, 11, 12, 13..etc, and at each setting actually measured the bore inside the tube to verify and quantify this distortion/compression of the tube that we assume occurs?

Are these tubes capable of being compressed to the point of fork harshness, yet returning to their non-harsh dimension when the torque is reduced?
We've done that, but haven't physically measured the deformation result; instead we just had a inner fork tube and bushing inside the outer and moved it back and forth feeling the resistance. It definitely increases resistance as the torque (clamping load) rises. Remove the torque and it springs back to normal. It doesn't take much distortion to notice a big difference.

We tested multiple triple clamps - stock, ours, Xtrig, Neken, etc. and they were all about the same. More torque than necessary and they started to bind up. Unless the machining tolerances are way off, it will be about the same no matter what clamp you're looking at. That's why the proper torque is the minimum you can get away with without anything slipping; any more and you're just binding up the suspension.
3

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