Bike Stuck in Gear

KimJongUn
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KimJongUn
Edited Date/Time 5/22/2018 5:17pm
2014 CRF450R

Finished a moto and riding back to the truck realized I could not shift up or down.

Took the right crankcase cover off and pulled the clutch basket. One fiber plate was broken into about 10 pieces.

With the clutch basket off the gear shift spindle has a little play but will not shift up or down.

Ideas? Am I going to be splitting cases?

Visually everything looks good except clutch plate shavings and the clutch basket is chewed up where the fiber plates engage.

Thanks in advance!
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Bruneval
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Bruneval 5/12/2018 12:09pm
5/12/2018 12:09pm
Can you pull the shift shaft and paw out? A bit of broken plate may have got behind it and you might have have bent it by forcing a change with your foot. If you can remove the shaft, roll it on something flat (like glass) to check whether it is true. I’d remove the clutch basket and check this mechanism first before splitting the cases.
Paw Paw 271
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Paw Paw 271 5/12/2018 1:29pm
5/12/2018 1:29pm
The clutch disk will break with that much wear on the basket. It needs to be replaced.

Paw Paw
CarlinoJoeVideo
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CarlinoJoeVideo 5/12/2018 3:00pm
5/12/2018 3:00pm
That basket is in badddd shape! Those groves are not supposed to be there.
KimJongUn
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KimJongUn 5/12/2018 4:07pm
5/12/2018 4:07pm Edited Date/Time 5/12/2018 4:08pm
Bruneval wrote:
Can you pull the shift shaft and paw out? A bit of broken plate may have got behind it and you might have have bent it...
Can you pull the shift shaft and paw out? A bit of broken plate may have got behind it and you might have have bent it by forcing a change with your foot. If you can remove the shaft, roll it on something flat (like glass) to check whether it is true. I’d remove the clutch basket and check this mechanism first before splitting the cases.
I’ll pull it back apart tomorrow and take a look.

Are the grooves in the basket just due to normal wear and tear? Abusing the clutch? Or some other cause?

Thanks

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Bruneval
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Bruneval 5/12/2018 4:22pm
5/12/2018 4:22pm
The notches in the clutch basket are bad, but it’s typical Honda wear unfortunately - their clutches are junk and have been for a while. I had to replace the baskets on both of my CRFs really quickly. Also, the judder spring Honda uses has a habit of shattering. I replace those with a regular friction plate (a common thing to do).

Irrespective of the clutch, your bike should still shift gear. I’d check all the external items (shift mechanism) before splitting the cases as it’s a lot of work to do if you’re not completely sure the problem lies inside the transmission cluster and shift drum/forks.
YamahaJT1
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YamahaJT1 5/12/2018 9:54pm
5/12/2018 9:54pm Edited Date/Time 5/12/2018 10:04pm
Wow... That is Bad. Holy Shit!

As Bruneval stated, with the plates now removed, will it shift? It should with a bit of rotational coaxing. Both UP and Down.

When did you last do basic maintenance per your manual?

I'd split and mic everything, replacing out of spec parts at least. The shift forks/drum and tranny have likely taken a beating. Best to be safe than sorry just doing a basket/plates/hub/bearing.
KimJongUn
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KimJongUn 5/13/2018 6:34am
5/13/2018 6:34am
YamahaJT1 wrote:
Wow... That is Bad. Holy Shit! As Bruneval stated, with the plates now removed, will it shift? It should with a bit of rotational coaxing. Both...
Wow... That is Bad. Holy Shit!

As Bruneval stated, with the plates now removed, will it shift? It should with a bit of rotational coaxing. Both UP and Down.

When did you last do basic maintenance per your manual?

I'd split and mic everything, replacing out of spec parts at least. The shift forks/drum and tranny have likely taken a beating. Best to be safe than sorry just doing a basket/plates/hub/bearing.
I replace the engine/trans oil religiously ever 12-15 hours with Motorex Pro 4T.

I replaced the clutch plates and springs with Hinson components roughly 20hrs ago. At this time the basket looked great and showed no signs of wear.

I don’t understand why this got so bad so quickly.
YamahaJT1
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YamahaJT1 5/13/2018 8:19am
5/13/2018 8:19am Edited Date/Time 5/13/2018 8:23am
KimJongUn wrote:
I replace the engine/trans oil religiously ever 12-15 hours with Motorex Pro 4T. I replaced the clutch plates and springs with Hinson components roughly 20hrs ago...
I replace the engine/trans oil religiously ever 12-15 hours with Motorex Pro 4T.

I replaced the clutch plates and springs with Hinson components roughly 20hrs ago. At this time the basket looked great and showed no signs of wear.

I don’t understand why this got so bad so quickly.
Yeah, that IS odd. Pull the basket, and as Bruneval said, check the shifter shaft, pawl mechanism, etc. It's gotta shift, or it is splitting time.

I don't know about your specific engine, but I have seen on Hondas the shift shaft lever slot become disengaged from the little roller sleeve on the pawl mechanism, giving the appearance of a jammed tranny. Start with the obvious and work inwards.
KimJongUn
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KimJongUn 5/14/2018 3:23pm
5/14/2018 3:23pm
YamahaJT1 wrote:
Yeah, that IS odd. Pull the basket, and as Bruneval said, check the shifter shaft, pawl mechanism, etc. It's gotta shift, or it is splitting time...
Yeah, that IS odd. Pull the basket, and as Bruneval said, check the shifter shaft, pawl mechanism, etc. It's gotta shift, or it is splitting time.

I don't know about your specific engine, but I have seen on Hondas the shift shaft lever slot become disengaged from the little roller sleeve on the pawl mechanism, giving the appearance of a jammed tranny. Start with the obvious and work inwards.
So took it apart. Looks as though the gear shift drum will cycle through all the gears. The indicator mark on the drum will rotate from the two positions shown (I assume that’s all the gears).

I found the shifter drum (ratchet mechanism) had one of these pins highlighted in red that was stuck due to metal chips.

Does everyone agree it looks as though I found the cause? Once I cleaned it and put it together it cycled through using the shift lever.

Also, there are a lot of chips in the gearbox from the clutch basket... what are some good ways to flush all this out?

My last question... what was the root cause of this? Just crappy Honda clutches? Is it worth it to replace with full Hinson? Or just go back with OEM?

Thanks for the help!

YamahaJT1
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YamahaJT1 5/15/2018 5:20am
5/15/2018 5:20am
Yes, looks like you found it. Metal pieces jammed into the pawl (red) will cause issues.

Looks like you value your bike (parts pics on clean towels, not laying on a filthy garage floor). To be fair, you really should put the cover on to prevent sealing surface damage, pull the engine, and split the cases. Full clean and inspection.

I like Pro X setup for 125's (Forged basket/cast OEM hub/Alloy plates). Last well. But your beast is very powerful compared to my bikes. Go top quality to minimize this happening again after all the work you will do to get her in form again.



Bruneval
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Bruneval 5/15/2018 6:13pm
5/15/2018 6:13pm Edited Date/Time 5/15/2018 7:07pm
That sure is a lot of swarf. You need to clean as much out as you can - lots of shop towel, compressed air and contact cleaner, and then when back together, do 2-3 oil changes in quick succession to flush out the remainder.

The most concerning thing is the damage the fragments have done to the transmission bearing seal - the red one in your pic. It needs replaced, but you might get away with it for a little while longer.
KimJongUn
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KimJongUn 5/15/2018 6:53pm
5/15/2018 6:53pm
Bruneval wrote:
That sure is a lot of swarf. You need to clean as much out as you can - lots of shop towel, compressed air and contact...
That sure is a lot of swarf. You need to clean as much out as you can - lots of shop towel, compressed air and contact cleaner, and then when back together, do 2-3 oil changes in quick succession to flush out the remainder.

The most concerning thing is the damage the fragments have done to the transmission bearing seal - the red one in your pic. It needs replaced, but you might get away with it for a little while longer.
So last night I flushed it with an entire large can of WD40 and didn’t see any more metal flakes coming out. Once I get it back together I’m going to put some cheap oil in it and cycle it for about 20 mins low rpm and repeat a few times until I don’t see any flake in the oil.

Going to take it back apart every few rides and monitor the seal.

Thanks for the help guys. I appreciate it.
ktm-5
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ktm-5 5/15/2018 8:54pm
5/15/2018 8:54pm Edited Date/Time 5/15/2018 8:55pm
Couldnt you just remove the seal from the bearing? It would help the tranny oil flow through better. Never understood why it is there...or is it to help keep clutch particles out?
YamahaJT1
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YamahaJT1 5/16/2018 7:08am
5/16/2018 7:08am Edited Date/Time 5/16/2018 8:53am
KimJongUn wrote:
So last night I flushed it with an entire large can of WD40 and didn’t see any more metal flakes coming out. Once I get it...
So last night I flushed it with an entire large can of WD40 and didn’t see any more metal flakes coming out. Once I get it back together I’m going to put some cheap oil in it and cycle it for about 20 mins low rpm and repeat a few times until I don’t see any flake in the oil.

Going to take it back apart every few rides and monitor the seal.

Thanks for the help guys. I appreciate it.
Well, you have a plan!

Yeah, 3-4-5 flushes with cheap but meeting spec oil may be your ticket (and some hope!)

I'd drop the oil cycle time to 4-5 mins between the changes... At least for the first couple, because the residual pools of WD-40 left behind causing viscosity degradation. 20 mins is a long duration with metal fragments floating around. Oil is cheap compared to engines.

After the first 2-3 changes, take it for a quick ride. Lug it quickly through the gears and drain again.

Good luck! Let us know how you make out.

EDIT: Just my opinion here, as I have never tried the "flush" method, but do think that the "solution to pollution is dilution". I would split the cases. OP, I think you may be "GTG", but I am OCD.
KimJongUn
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KimJongUn 5/22/2018 5:17pm
5/22/2018 5:17pm
Put everything back together. Changed the oil 4 times, quickly going through the gears between each. No chips after the first change.

Think I’m goos for a little while.

Thanks for the help.

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