1990? cr250 Engine I/D Restore upgrade!

JohnnOutlaw
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Oklahoma City, OK US
Edited Date/Time 1/19/2022 4:18pm
Hello new guy here! I hope it is expectable for me to post this here!
Before we get to deep - let me start by saying this build/information is not based around a dirt bike.
I am currently building a Outlaw kart - Outlaw karts use 250cc to 500cc engines from dirt bikes....
We run on a 1/9th mile track - give or take based of wear we go to race... No shifting or anything like that - we run one gear (Based off set up )....

Iv looked all around the market place - and 450/500 cc engines are simply out of my price range - most engines are 2500 to 4000k and that is just the engine its self....

I lucked out and found a cr250 for 1000$ - Engine was attached to a outlaw kart prior - however it has been setting - the good news for me is it comes with everything i need plus extras - extra heads - extra carbs - the proper motor mount - brand new in box - gears..... brand new chains...... There is easily 500$ in parts

I do not have crazy dreams for any crazy amount of power out of this engine - My goal is to use this engine as a entry level/beginner - something to get me some lap times.....

I would like yalls advice on the engine its self - I have been doing my best to find the answers to my basic questions - Such as engine year........ My engine number ( me03e - 5201128 ) From what am able to tell - this engine dates to a 1990? - i used this web site - http://www.oem-cycle.com/HONDACR250BIKEID.shtml

My next question revolves around - best oil and oil weight?...... Best oil to fuel mixture?
What are so good upgrades? If any?
How about rebuild options - What options do I have for rebuild - any upgrades i could do along the way?

Does anyone have any advice for me?
Thanks guys! Looks like an awesome community yall have here!








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godog
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12/30/2021 12:05am Edited Date/Time 12/30/2021 12:12am
There wasn't much really wrong with those engines. Good maintenance practices in regards to keeping the hpp valves super clean and sliding smoothly is important. Exhaust pipe sealing in the cylinder is a bit of a pain and needs constant attention. The stock clutch pack used aluminum drive plates that would wear out quickly and contaminate the transmission oil. If the aluminum units were replaced with steel drive plates then that is not much of a concern. Typical motorcycle manual transmission oil will work the best for smoothest shifts but it can be argued that it's not truly necessary. Essentially, regular oil changes do wonders for watching for wearing of trans and clutch parts. Fuel/oil mix ratio can be argued to death but the fact is if you plan on beating the life out of this engine and getting it hot for long periods of time use a good castor blended oil at a ratio close to manufacture suggestions like 32:1 and up to 50:1. If you are looking to "rebuild" it eventually, getting complete OEM assemblies like cranks might be impossible. With most of the "kits" available today you get exactly what you pay for. If it's cheap and it's installed wrong it won't last. If it's expensive and installed wrong it won't last. If someone rebuilds the crank with a decent quality rod kit and doesn't smash the crank with a hammer or wedges to true it up it will last a good while. If the cylinder still has a plated bore then a properly sized cast piston will be your go to. Upgrade s....bolt on bits like a reed block assembly never hurts unless installed wrong. The pipe that is in the pics isn't the worst pipe but for the application in a sprint car who really knows what works best? The silencer (if Im reading it right) is a spark arrestor...if you are racing on a closed course "race track" I don't see that it's necessary to use a spark arrestor so you might want to replace that or build a straight thru core. Upon closer inspection of the pics it looks like someone has carved their logo onto the cylinder so it's probably got a decent port layout for the purpose in a sprint car and it has a current reed block assembly already installed. Inspection of the reeds themselves would be a good idea before it gets run.
JohnnOutlaw
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8
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12/28/2021
Location
Oklahoma City, OK US
1/3/2022 1:23pm
godog wrote:
There wasn't much really wrong with those engines. Good maintenance practices in regards to keeping the hpp valves super clean and sliding smoothly is important. Exhaust...
There wasn't much really wrong with those engines. Good maintenance practices in regards to keeping the hpp valves super clean and sliding smoothly is important. Exhaust pipe sealing in the cylinder is a bit of a pain and needs constant attention. The stock clutch pack used aluminum drive plates that would wear out quickly and contaminate the transmission oil. If the aluminum units were replaced with steel drive plates then that is not much of a concern. Typical motorcycle manual transmission oil will work the best for smoothest shifts but it can be argued that it's not truly necessary. Essentially, regular oil changes do wonders for watching for wearing of trans and clutch parts. Fuel/oil mix ratio can be argued to death but the fact is if you plan on beating the life out of this engine and getting it hot for long periods of time use a good castor blended oil at a ratio close to manufacture suggestions like 32:1 and up to 50:1. If you are looking to "rebuild" it eventually, getting complete OEM assemblies like cranks might be impossible. With most of the "kits" available today you get exactly what you pay for. If it's cheap and it's installed wrong it won't last. If it's expensive and installed wrong it won't last. If someone rebuilds the crank with a decent quality rod kit and doesn't smash the crank with a hammer or wedges to true it up it will last a good while. If the cylinder still has a plated bore then a properly sized cast piston will be your go to. Upgrade s....bolt on bits like a reed block assembly never hurts unless installed wrong. The pipe that is in the pics isn't the worst pipe but for the application in a sprint car who really knows what works best? The silencer (if Im reading it right) is a spark arrestor...if you are racing on a closed course "race track" I don't see that it's necessary to use a spark arrestor so you might want to replace that or build a straight thru core. Upon closer inspection of the pics it looks like someone has carved their logo onto the cylinder so it's probably got a decent port layout for the purpose in a sprint car and it has a current reed block assembly already installed. Inspection of the reeds themselves would be a good idea before it gets run.
Thanks for the info bud! We change oils/fuel out after every race - So keeping up with that end wont be a big deal???

Do you have a recommendation - oil (Brand/weight?)

Iv looked around for a full rebuild kits - hard to find (I found a few on ebay). The majority of kits appears to be 92 and forward....
While this is just a starter motor - i would like to give it every chance possible to be successful.
I appreciate your advice and time! alote of good info there!
godog
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1/3/2022 9:22pm Edited Date/Time 1/3/2022 9:27pm
https://maximausa.com/series-282-mtl-trans-clutch-fluid.html?locale=en
Is a highly regarded oil for the transmission in that CR engine.

03.1315 ProX Con.Rod Kit CR250 ’78-01 +
This rod kit will be acceptable to use if installed carefully.
23.CBS13084 Pro x main bearings and seals
01.1315.A Pro x piston kit with 4 different slight oversizes A1,A2,A3,A4.
A complete gasket kit might be hard to come by but I think most of the gaskets are still available from Honda.

The Shop

JohnnOutlaw
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Oklahoma City, OK US
1/10/2022 10:07am
godog wrote:
https://maximausa.com/series-282-mtl-trans-clutch-fluid.html?locale=en Is a highly regarded oil for the transmission in that CR engine. 03.1315 ProX Con.Rod Kit CR250 ’78-01 + This rod kit will be acceptable...
https://maximausa.com/series-282-mtl-trans-clutch-fluid.html?locale=en
Is a highly regarded oil for the transmission in that CR engine.

03.1315 ProX Con.Rod Kit CR250 ’78-01 +
This rod kit will be acceptable to use if installed carefully.
23.CBS13084 Pro x main bearings and seals
01.1315.A Pro x piston kit with 4 different slight oversizes A1,A2,A3,A4.
A complete gasket kit might be hard to come by but I think most of the gaskets are still available from Honda.
Thanks again for the info - Iv got everything written down and added to my note!
Next question - Can you educate me on the (ignition systen) How and wear these engines get there fire from.... Im guessing it has a coil or some kinda points system?

I know my way around a vehicle - Done my fair share of transmission swaps - engine rebuilds/swaps...... I have no clue on this bike stuff - Im supposed to pick up the engine this week. Cant wait to start going threw every thing.....

Again Thank you for your time sir!
godog
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1/10/2022 11:40am Edited Date/Time 1/10/2022 11:44am



The system is pretty simple. It consists of a stator or source coil ( think alternator) with a magnetic flywheel (#8), an external pick up coil (pulse generator)(#8) a CDI unit ( brain box)(#7) and a two sided high tension coil ( primary and secondary) that's about it.....
JohnnOutlaw
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Oklahoma City, OK US
1/17/2022 6:14am
godog wrote:
[img]https://p.vitalmx.com/photos/forums/2022/01/10/527756/s1200_left_crankcase_cover_mediumhu0277e0600c_827d.jpg[/img] The system is pretty simple. It consists of a stator or source coil ( think alternator) with a magnetic flywheel (#8), an external pick up...



The system is pretty simple. It consists of a stator or source coil ( think alternator) with a magnetic flywheel (#8), an external pick up coil (pulse generator)(#8) a CDI unit ( brain box)(#7) and a two sided high tension coil ( primary and secondary) that's about it.....
Thank you sir! Got some bad news..... Got the engine picked up - Found out the engine was stuck (Would not spin forward or backwards) I pulled the cylinder - The piston skirt is busted on one side.... Lots of metal setting on the crack and rotating assembly...... once i got the cylinder off the crank and rod started to spin freely but the busted metal is binding everything up and stopping everything from moving freely.
We are debating on what to do now...... My buddy i bought the engine from offered some of my money back..... IDK if i should push for a rebuild due to age and parts availability - I would hate to get stuck in a situation wear I'm constantly struggling with a rush to find parts..... Altho I just need to get a season out of this engine (10 to 15 races) - My plain is to upgrade next year..... I need a good reliable engine between 250cc to 450cc.........
considering what i originally paid plus If I spend 1000$ rebuilding - I could have bought a complete running 450cc running bike....


Thanks for your help with this sir! You have been a great help!
godog
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1/17/2022 8:13am
ah..yes....the old "broken intake skirt" dilemma...Its a common issue with top ends that went a bit too far out of tolerance and got pushed hard. Many times the larger bits n pieces of the piston get clobbered by the rod at bottom dead center and conveniently poke a hole in the cases. That sorta thing requires a weld repair and a careful lapping of the center mating surfaces. This kind of repair isnt free either so there is a lot to consider here....My best suggestion would be to contact a local reputable engine builder and get a firm quote on the labour to build a crank and install it. If they are "worth their salt" they will be able to give you a good idea on parts supply as well so you wont be caught out waiting weeks for spares. I believe in the short game this engine (once built) will be a better option than going with a used 450 engine.
JohnnOutlaw
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Oklahoma City, OK US
1/17/2022 12:13pm
godog wrote:
ah..yes....the old "broken intake skirt" dilemma...Its a common issue with top ends that went a bit too far out of tolerance and got pushed hard. Many...
ah..yes....the old "broken intake skirt" dilemma...Its a common issue with top ends that went a bit too far out of tolerance and got pushed hard. Many times the larger bits n pieces of the piston get clobbered by the rod at bottom dead center and conveniently poke a hole in the cases. That sorta thing requires a weld repair and a careful lapping of the center mating surfaces. This kind of repair isnt free either so there is a lot to consider here....My best suggestion would be to contact a local reputable engine builder and get a firm quote on the labour to build a crank and install it. If they are "worth their salt" they will be able to give you a good idea on parts supply as well so you wont be caught out waiting weeks for spares. I believe in the short game this engine (once built) will be a better option than going with a used 450 engine.
From everything iv read - These little engines have the full potential to best the 450........ Iv been spectating the 450/500 class for sometime - There wild animals with brut power and slide job after slide job - Iv looked at the power band - the power curve and believe 250cc could be setup to take advantage of a good handling set up..... the 450/500 are either spinning the tire around the whole track or just lifting the front wheels around the whole track.....
There doesn't appear to be much to these engines - Seems simple.... Iv rebuilt my fair share SBF SBC / transmission swaps and engines.
I just dont know If i wanna risk my limited knowledge on this - just to save a few $ and have it blow up and come out in worse condition then before.
Iv been trying to find a builder - everyone so far has shot it down for one reason or the other......

I'm not near ready to give up on this - Wheels need to be down on the dirt sometime in late March so i got sometime.....

Ill do some hunting around and let you know what I come up with.....

Thanks again friend - Here is a couple of videos of our sport -

This is our local track - https://www.facebook.com/racindirtcom/videos/500-outlaw-kart-heat-at-ou…


Kyle Larson open - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6JOojefeRdo
godog
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1/17/2022 2:53pm
I find it a bit sad that any builder would turn you down for the work on this engine. Very much like you said there isn't much to these motors. Armed with a couple of decent pullers (flywheel & case splitter) a person can have them apart in well under an hour. There are a few really good tutorials on YouTube for tearing it down and gently putting them back together. With the proper use of chilling and induction heating they go together quickly and easily. My suggestion with the crank would be to send it away to a well known crank shop. A quick Google search will get you in touch with a shop ,with at the very least some reviews to be able to judge their work by. With the winter weather in the eastern states I would probably look at a shop out west..like California or Arizona as to avoid shipping delays due to weather. To get some insights on the condition of the cylinder and what direction to go there post up some clear brightly lit pics of the bore and areas around the exhaust and intake ports.
JohnnOutlaw
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Oklahoma City, OK US
1/19/2022 4:18pm
godog wrote:
I find it a bit sad that any builder would turn you down for the work on this engine. Very much like you said there isn't...
I find it a bit sad that any builder would turn you down for the work on this engine. Very much like you said there isn't much to these motors. Armed with a couple of decent pullers (flywheel & case splitter) a person can have them apart in well under an hour. There are a few really good tutorials on YouTube for tearing it down and gently putting them back together. With the proper use of chilling and induction heating they go together quickly and easily. My suggestion with the crank would be to send it away to a well known crank shop. A quick Google search will get you in touch with a shop ,with at the very least some reviews to be able to judge their work by. With the winter weather in the eastern states I would probably look at a shop out west..like California or Arizona as to avoid shipping delays due to weather. To get some insights on the condition of the cylinder and what direction to go there post up some clear brightly lit pics of the bore and areas around the exhaust and intake ports.
Found a builder - He is down in texas but not far from the Oklahoma state line - Highly recommended by other racers....... He said he charges a flat labor of 350$ - He said everything else depends on Damage and Parts needed. He said he did not wanna quote parts at me until after he looks at it and checks prices - He said the market has been jumping around lately..... he seems to think i can get out of it for less then 1000. He seemed very knowable and talked with me about what is what..... He has a dyno and can do tuning. One of the Biggest outlaw kart racers/suppliers/builders uses him constantly and swore by him. He also said the 250 will woop the snot outta a 450 if done right.
He said i can get 10 to 12 nights of good racing before needing to pull the top end and check over everything.
I believe ( ill double check ) he recommended 32 to 1 mixture!
He requires parts to be paid after the teardown - The rest upon pick up....
Ill keep you updates - my friend who recommended him is taking his engine to him next week - I will be sending mine as well.

What your thoughts? Again my friend! Thank you!
godog
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1/19/2022 7:48pm
That sounds fantastic. 😃

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