Is 60:1 too rich for the 2014 KTM SX 250??

Edited Date/Time 4/25/2015 2:40am
I think I've already cooked my bottom end after 15hrs mx, 60:1 is what the owners manual recommends but I used to run all my other two strokes at 32:1.
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slipdog
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2/17/2014 5:07am
What do you mean "you think"?

You'll get a lot of negative opinions here, but 60:1 is fine for a 2 stroke. There's a lot of threads here about how bad the KTM filter cage seals to the airbox, engines don't like dirt. Inspect the piston and cylinder wall for scoring when you tear it down.
Arkmx
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2/17/2014 10:41am Edited Date/Time 2/17/2014 2:22pm
.

60:1 is a "rich" fuel mixture (less oil / more fuel) Depending on the oil you used will play a part in your lubricating the bottom end.

Do you have any oil residue on you crank halves? (if you can spin the crank around) 32:1 will have a nice oil film on the crank halves.

If that was our bike it would be on a 32:1 mixture with Lucas Oil Semi Synthetic Pre Mix ...Period! And a 50/50 mix of race fuel & pump gas on a stock motor.

Like Jakes Dad said the bottom end likes oil and 32:1 will be plenty. The whole internals (crank, bearings, piston etc.) of the two stroke motor like oil. Oil is your friend...!

If you cooked the bottom end it's is due to too much heat.. either an air leak or lack of oil.

IMO.. if you sucked sand - dirt you top end is going to go out first.

Good luck!

.
JW381
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2/17/2014 1:35pm
Arkmx wrote:
. 60:1 is a "rich" fuel mixture (less oil / more fuel) Depending on the oil you used will play a part in your lubricating the...
.

60:1 is a "rich" fuel mixture (less oil / more fuel) Depending on the oil you used will play a part in your lubricating the bottom end.

Do you have any oil residue on you crank halves? (if you can spin the crank around) 32:1 will have a nice oil film on the crank halves.

If that was our bike it would be on a 32:1 mixture with Lucas Oil Semi Synthetic Pre Mix ...Period! And a 50/50 mix of race fuel & pump gas on a stock motor.

Like Jakes Dad said the bottom end likes oil and 32:1 will be plenty. The whole internals (crank, bearings, piston etc.) of the two stroke motor like oil. Oil is your friend...!

If you cooked the bottom end it's is due to too much heat.. either an air leak or lack of oil.

IMO.. if you sucked sand - dirt you top end is going to go out first.

Good luck!

.
I run 32:1 Bel Ray H1R on 50/50 Sunoco 110 and premium 92 non-ethanol. So basically the exact same setup, on my CR250. Any reason you go wtih the Lucas Oil? I ask because I would like to support Lucas Oil products, just wasn't sure if their pre mix was any good.

The Shop

Arkmx
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2/17/2014 2:15pm
JW381 wrote:
I run 32:1 Bel Ray H1R on 50/50 Sunoco 110 and premium 92 non-ethanol. So basically the exact same setup, on my CR250. Any reason you...
I run 32:1 Bel Ray H1R on 50/50 Sunoco 110 and premium 92 non-ethanol. So basically the exact same setup, on my CR250. Any reason you go wtih the Lucas Oil? I ask because I would like to support Lucas Oil products, just wasn't sure if their pre mix was any good.
.

JW... this should answer you question quickly...

Check out our 125 here.... http://www.vitalmx.com/forums/Race-Shop,42/05-KX125-with-37-2-Hours-on-…


Lucas Oil - It Works!

.
JW381
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2/17/2014 2:19pm
JW381 wrote:
I run 32:1 Bel Ray H1R on 50/50 Sunoco 110 and premium 92 non-ethanol. So basically the exact same setup, on my CR250. Any reason you...
I run 32:1 Bel Ray H1R on 50/50 Sunoco 110 and premium 92 non-ethanol. So basically the exact same setup, on my CR250. Any reason you go wtih the Lucas Oil? I ask because I would like to support Lucas Oil products, just wasn't sure if their pre mix was any good.
Arkmx wrote:
.

JW... this should answer you question quickly...

Check out our 125 here.... http://www.vitalmx.com/forums/Race-Shop,42/05-KX125-with-37-2-Hours-on-…


Lucas Oil - It Works!

.
Cool man thanks. They just seem to be really doing a lot for the sport, and not to mention that oil is cheaper than most premixes. It's a little harder to find around town, but good to know. Might have to switch to it. I did run it in my YZ before I sold it, never noticed any problems, maybe smoked a little. I generally run my jetting just a tad on the rich side. Engine life is more important for me than perfectly snappy throttle response. Just swapped a fresh plug in and the one I pulled out was a little damp, but when I put my fatty on I took a peak thru the exhaust port and there was plenty of oil and they cylinder wall looked great!
Arkmx
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2/17/2014 2:24pm
JW381 wrote:
Cool man thanks. They just seem to be really doing a lot for the sport, and not to mention that oil is cheaper than most premixes...
Cool man thanks. They just seem to be really doing a lot for the sport, and not to mention that oil is cheaper than most premixes. It's a little harder to find around town, but good to know. Might have to switch to it. I did run it in my YZ before I sold it, never noticed any problems, maybe smoked a little. I generally run my jetting just a tad on the rich side. Engine life is more important for me than perfectly snappy throttle response. Just swapped a fresh plug in and the one I pulled out was a little damp, but when I put my fatty on I took a peak thru the exhaust port and there was plenty of oil and they cylinder wall looked great!
.

No problem & good luck!

Did you ever live in Tucson, first name John? Just curious.....

.
JW381
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2/17/2014 2:37pm
JW381 wrote:
Cool man thanks. They just seem to be really doing a lot for the sport, and not to mention that oil is cheaper than most premixes...
Cool man thanks. They just seem to be really doing a lot for the sport, and not to mention that oil is cheaper than most premixes. It's a little harder to find around town, but good to know. Might have to switch to it. I did run it in my YZ before I sold it, never noticed any problems, maybe smoked a little. I generally run my jetting just a tad on the rich side. Engine life is more important for me than perfectly snappy throttle response. Just swapped a fresh plug in and the one I pulled out was a little damp, but when I put my fatty on I took a peak thru the exhaust port and there was plenty of oil and they cylinder wall looked great!
Arkmx wrote:
.

No problem & good luck!

Did you ever live in Tucson, first name John? Just curious.....

.
Nope, have a grandpa in the Phoenix area, that's it. Not named John haha.
geo309
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2/17/2014 3:39pm
slipdog wrote:
What do you mean "you think"? You'll get a lot of negative opinions here, but 60:1 is fine for a 2 stroke. There's a lot of...
What do you mean "you think"?

You'll get a lot of negative opinions here, but 60:1 is fine for a 2 stroke. There's a lot of threads here about how bad the KTM filter cage seals to the airbox, engines don't like dirt. Inspect the piston and cylinder wall for scoring when you tear it down.
I had the air box seal issue. Sucked a bunch of sand and trashed the cylinder walls and piston on my sons 2013 KTM 250sx. Only had about 15 hours on it. Lesson learned to double check it when installing the filter. I asked my KTM Dealer about the 60:1 and he didn't have an issue, recommended Motorex cross power 2t which is a fully synthetic which I think allows higher ratios.
Falcon
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2/17/2014 4:31pm
Two stroke premix can be mixed at nearly any ratio up to 100:1, assuming the oil is good enough. Make sure you follow the oil brand's recommendation. 60:1 for Motorex sounds like something they would recommend.
Jakes Dad
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2/17/2014 5:11pm
See how much oil residue is at bottom of crankcase, there should be some. This is a sign that the premix is doing it's job coating the bearings and such if it's dry down there, well I'd know where I'd point the finger.

Now having said that I'm in a quandary right now trying to see if the flash points of premix make a big difference or not.

Lucas at 24 to 1 barely leaves enough residue for a Q-tip to clean up. And I've still had a crank failure with this combo, Lucas flashes around 180 deg. Jetting in the RM 150 (mod motor) was clip in 2nd from top main was 360 using a 9 plug. Always right on the edge of lean with about 15 degrees advanced timing. Cool good winter air here a 370 was good.

Now I'm trying Motul 800 2T because it has the highest flash point 485 deg, but way cooler cylinder temps by almost 20 degrees and less power. This was at 32 to 1 because I had a feeling with that high of flash point it would throw my existing combo off quite a bit. And a 10 plug to try and help temps also.

Anyway after getting Jake tuned in for a SX race this past weekend, I had to put a 9 back in it and go down to a 350 main for best performance (time I had). But plug was still fat looking with a light residue half way down the porcelain.

Now back last month when I sent the crank to TDC to get rebuilt I pretty much admitted that I screwed up and had too much advance in the motor and it probably pounded the bearings. There was only about 1/2" of heat showing around the big end not even enough to go up the rod beam. Brent at TDC said don't wash it, don't do anything just send it like it is. What he found was that the thrust washers were dry and that's when he told me to look in the crankcase for any premix residue.

So now after about 3 gallons of fuel through the motor I'm going to pull the cylinder and see how much residue is left over from the Motul after this weekends race. I loved the Lucas especially $30 a gallon off Amazon, why I didn't care even if I went down to 20 to 1 mix.

Saga continues............
slipdog
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2/17/2014 6:33pm
JD, I ran 800 2t at 64:1(2oz per gal) in all my 125 when I raced the Nationals in the 90's. Never had a lower end failure and the crank halves were always covered in oil when I put in a new top end, also ran my avatar photoCIS turbo cranks... Just sayin'

FTR, I'm not saying anything is wrong with 32:1, but every motor I take apart at 32:1 is usually drowning in oil.
CamP
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2/17/2014 7:37pm
Mix ratio depends on the viscosity of oil and the sustained rpm of engine. Personally, I prefer running a light viscosity oil at a lower numerical ratio.
Jakes Dad
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2/18/2014 2:07am
My problem is my near 20 years of drag racing, I can't leave well enough alone. Always tuning the bike to tracks and conditions. So I'm always running the razors edge and that's usually on the edge of lean and more lead.

Glad to hear of your experience with the Motul SD, cause the Lucas left me wondering but man the motor ran great on that stuff.
BAMX
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2/18/2014 10:02am
The guys at my work have designed a number of 2 stroke engines. As in, building them from nothing but a blank sheet of paper and a bunch of someone's money. Trust me when I say that they can build some crazy stuff (see pic below, yes it is a 2 stroke) They swear up and down that the more oil you add, the better the hp on the dyno. Obviously, there is a point where you would foul the plug in normal use.
slipdog
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2/18/2014 10:46am
BAMX wrote:
The guys at my work have designed a number of 2 stroke engines. As in, building them from nothing but a blank sheet of paper and...
The guys at my work have designed a number of 2 stroke engines. As in, building them from nothing but a blank sheet of paper and a bunch of someone's money. Trust me when I say that they can build some crazy stuff (see pic below, yes it is a 2 stroke) They swear up and down that the more oil you add, the better the hp on the dyno. Obviously, there is a point where you would foul the plug in normal use.
I've come across that from some motor builders saying more oil creates a better ring seal in a 2 stroke for more hp. I'm doing some testing right now with a '14 YZ250, thinking of testing the difference between something like 30:1 and 50:1 to see if it shows on the Dyno.
Arkmx
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2/18/2014 11:02am
.

Make sure your jetting is in accordance to the ratio you are running - testing.

20:1 = Larger Jets (richer).

50:1 = Smaller Jets (leaner).

.
Arkmx
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2/18/2014 11:30am
JW381 wrote:
Nope, have a grandpa in the Phoenix area, that's it. Not named John haha.
.

Ok cool.

Had an old Mt Bike - race buddy named Jon Widows that liked Dirt bikes too. That's why I asked... JD381....

Cheers!

.
Jakes Dad
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2/18/2014 3:17pm Edited Date/Time 2/18/2014 3:32pm
Here's the plug after running the Motul 800 2T at 32:1.
Air was at 300 feet and I leaned the main down to a 350. I don't go to a 350 until the adjusted altitude is over 2000 feet. That was running the Lucas at 24:1 then. That's usually over 90 degrees here with over 70% humidity (normal July, Aug day here).

I did find out the Wossner rod was .010 shorter than the Hot Rods which was in it previously. So squish was at .042 nowhere near where I normally run it (.029 to .032). Luckily had a custom Cometic base gasket that now has it down to .034 so I'll live with that and it's at 55% of bore.

Don't like all the residue with only 3 gallons of fuel run through it Phillips 100LL. Keep in mind this kid runs this motor between 10 to 11,500 rpm almost all the time. Usually at 6 hours the plug has no residue and is coffee with cream color. Oh forgot changed from a 9 plug to a 10 here.
Kevin_Reed
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2/18/2014 4:47pm Edited Date/Time 2/18/2014 4:52pm
http://www.jalos.or..../2T_EV_LIST.pdf JASO Engine Oil Standards Implementation Panel
www.jalos.or.jp/onfile/pdf/2T_EV_LIST.pdf
Feb 1, 2014 - As for the on-file products which was not confirmed by the due date, the information would be publicized in the later occasions.

This is an updated list, this month, of 2 stroke oils and their classifications. The toughest spec is JASO FD. Does your oil cut the Mustard? I can't get the link to work!! But it is there. Any help?
BAMX
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Kevin_Reed wrote:
http://www.jalos.or..../2T_EV_LIST.pdf JASO Engine Oil Standards Implementation Panel www.jalos.or.jp/onfile/pdf/2T_EV_LIST.pdf‎ Feb 1, 2014 - As for the on-file products which was not confirmed by the due date, the...
http://www.jalos.or..../2T_EV_LIST.pdf JASO Engine Oil Standards Implementation Panel
www.jalos.or.jp/onfile/pdf/2T_EV_LIST.pdf
Feb 1, 2014 - As for the on-file products which was not confirmed by the due date, the information would be publicized in the later occasions.

This is an updated list, this month, of 2 stroke oils and their classifications. The toughest spec is JASO FD. Does your oil cut the Mustard? I can't get the link to work!! But it is there. Any help?
Mine does
FGR01
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2/18/2014 8:04pm
Kevin_Reed wrote:
http://www.jalos.or..../2T_EV_LIST.pdf JASO Engine Oil Standards Implementation Panel www.jalos.or.jp/onfile/pdf/2T_EV_LIST.pdf‎ Feb 1, 2014 - As for the on-file products which was not confirmed by the due date, the...
http://www.jalos.or..../2T_EV_LIST.pdf JASO Engine Oil Standards Implementation Panel
www.jalos.or.jp/onfile/pdf/2T_EV_LIST.pdf
Feb 1, 2014 - As for the on-file products which was not confirmed by the due date, the information would be publicized in the later occasions.

This is an updated list, this month, of 2 stroke oils and their classifications. The toughest spec is JASO FD. Does your oil cut the Mustard? I can't get the link to work!! But it is there. Any help?
Read the JASO standards.

FB, FC, and FD ratings specify the same level of lubrication. The main difference with FD is higher detergency, less smoke, and less carbon buildup (exhaust blockage).

http://jalos.or.jp/onfile/pdf/2T_EV0412.pdf
Kevin_Reed
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2/19/2014 5:09am Edited Date/Time 2/20/2014 3:51pm
Yes, I read it and there are several FD oils that I have access, John Deere, Citgo, and Husquavarna. I did not fully understand until I searched and read. I found Lucas at my auto parts store. The price was very reasonable and it said TLD sponsor on the bottle also. It had the FC and FD rating.
4/13/2015 4:36pm
slipdog wrote:
What do you mean "you think"? You'll get a lot of negative opinions here, but 60:1 is fine for a 2 stroke. There's a lot of...
What do you mean "you think"?

You'll get a lot of negative opinions here, but 60:1 is fine for a 2 stroke. There's a lot of threads here about how bad the KTM filter cage seals to the airbox, engines don't like dirt. Inspect the piston and cylinder wall for scoring when you tear it down.
geo309 wrote:
I had the air box seal issue. Sucked a bunch of sand and trashed the cylinder walls and piston on my sons 2013 KTM 250sx. Only...
I had the air box seal issue. Sucked a bunch of sand and trashed the cylinder walls and piston on my sons 2013 KTM 250sx. Only had about 15 hours on it. Lesson learned to double check it when installing the filter. I asked my KTM Dealer about the 60:1 and he didn't have an issue, recommended Motorex cross power 2t which is a fully synthetic which I think allows higher ratios.


Did your piston look this bad trying to give out why mine has died
Micahdogg
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4/14/2015 9:46am Edited Date/Time 4/14/2015 10:21am
I've got a 2011 KTM 250SX that I bought new. Have run Motorex and 93 octane at 50:1 since first day. It gets ridden very aggressively in the trails with some sustained WOT drag race type bursts, but not the level of engine torture that you will see in racing conditions.

It had about 100 hours on it and still made good compression (170) so I pulled the top end and slapped some new rings on and scuffed the cylinder. Going to a .50 base gasket (from .65) and it pumped out 190-195 psi now.

Anyway, the cylinder, piston, head, pv stuff, etc... all looked mint. I didn't even mic anything. I know DV12 swears 50:1 is totally adequate and he and his dad know their two stroke stuff. I'm a believer.

I've also changed filters on a fairly regular basis (couple times each year, not fanatical) and kept the surrounding lip well greased. I did have an issue with the airbox boot actually being breached at the airbox - a freaking stick poked between them. On most other bikes that connection is bolted together, but not on KTM. Thank got I caught that early.

Also, the plastic cage is kind of challenging to get seated to the airbox. At least on mine, there are a couple tangs molded into the plastic cage that are supposed to help align the cage to the airbox. Those tangs should slip inside the boot, but you can totally mount it with those outside the boot which will create a killer gap between the filter.
seth505
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4/14/2015 1:33pm
I run 40:1 in my 250sx (Amsoil), though I have a 38mm carb, PC exhaust, way different jetting etc.

On the air filter, I rode mine once with the stock setup and was way too paranoid about it sealing so I run a Loudmouthmx intake. The filters are rather small and get dirty quick but I put a clean filter on every time I ride anyhow.
Fearo
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4/15/2015 1:36am
I've never run a 2-stroke at anything but 32:1. I have a 2013 KTM SX 250.

Local pro's here sometimes run them at 25:1 at heavy WFO sand tracks.

The guy that bought my previous SX150 cooked his crank by running 50:1...
Micahdogg
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4/15/2015 7:08am
I will say that a smaller bore bike like a 125, I would probably not run 50:1 because those bikes are on the pipe way too much. I would probably use 32:1 if you know you are going to be riding it hard. It really just comes down to common sense. If you are going to barely see any rpm and lug say a KX500 through the woods, hell 80 or 100:1 would probably be adequate. If you are never letting off the throttle of a 60 cc bike, you probably need a lot of oil.
WVUpetro2013
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4/16/2015 7:06am
I bought a 15 250sx and dealer reccomended castor 927 to be ran at 50:1. Of course I did as he recommended and mixed up 5gallons. Now I'm questioning if that's even a good oil to run and if should remove the fuel and run 40:1 with a full synthetic. Any suggestions would be appreciated.

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