Brake Expertise Required

MP261
Posts
79
Joined
2/4/2015
Location
CA
Edited Date/Time 5/13/2016 12:10pm
Disclaimer: I know this is a common topic but many of the threads are dead ends.

Rebuilt my '03 CR250 over the winter which included new pads and rotors. While the front brake grabs, it is super spongy. Once it's 'biting' the rotor I can still pull the lever past that point and almost to the bar.

I've gone through all of the common trouble shooting methods including;
Bleed, and bleed again, and again...
master cylinder rebuild kit
zip-tie the lever and leave it for a few hours
put on a braided line
O/S rotor
rotors and pads are clean and free of any contamination

The only item left that could be the culprit is the caliper... is it possible that when pushing the pistons back in when changing the pads something like a seal blew?

Any advice would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!

|
809
Posts
350
Joined
6/2/2014
Location
Paducah, KY US
5/11/2016 9:15am
Generally, a seal in the caliper will leak fluid out. It sounds like you still have some air trapped. I always have an issue with KTM 85's doing this for some reason. The easiest way I have found to cure it is to back bleed it with a syringe. I get large syringes from a farm store and some clear hose to fit the syringe and bleeder. Fill the syringe about half full with brake fluid, hook it up to the bleeder. Open the bleeder, then push the fluid thru the system. The master cylinder cap needs to be off. You will probably over fill the master cyl so just use the syringe to suck some of the fluid out. This has worked great for me for years
pete24
Posts
2733
Joined
10/20/2011
Location
Marlborough, MA US
5/11/2016 9:26am
on stubborn ones i take the master cylinder off and hang it from the ceiling so the hose is straight up still connected at the caliper, an old guy told me this and it worked
K-dubbb
Posts
473
Joined
12/10/2013
Location
CA
5/11/2016 9:28am
Try this:

Grab a friend, tell them to open bleeder - you pull lever in (hold it), ask said friend to tighten bleeder - you: release the lever. Repeat while adding fluid to master, do this about 5 times, keeping the master topped. Tighten bleeder and see if any improvement exists.

Continue adding fluid to reservoir to eliminate air entrance, and push all the air out in 1 direction. For me its been generally a fail proof method to eliminating sponge and enhancing brake strength.
MP261
Posts
79
Joined
2/4/2015
Location
CA
5/11/2016 9:54am
Thanks guys, did the K-dubbb method last night. Still no avail.

I'm going to try putting the master cyl from another bike on that I know is good, and see how it feels with my caliper, and put my master on the other bike and see how that behaves.

Hopefully this will be able to pin point then if the problem is the MC or caliper.

*fingers crossed I can narrow it down to the caliper and just rebuild that. Although it does not leak, like 809 has mentioned.

The Shop

sandman768
Posts
6665
Joined
3/21/2014
Location
Saratoga Springs, NY US
5/11/2016 10:12am
pete24 wrote:
on stubborn ones i take the master cylinder off and hang it from the ceiling so the hose is straight up still connected at the caliper...
on stubborn ones i take the master cylinder off and hang it from the ceiling so the hose is straight up still connected at the caliper, an old guy told me this and it worked
This worked for me also, hung from ceiling with bungee cord, I also cracked bleeder open & waited for fluid to drip out, then I did the standard bleed method. My brother showed me this after I pumped & bled them for 2 days! Of course it"s an 88 rm, so even though I got good pressure at the lever, the brakes still suck....
mb
Posts
769
Joined
7/22/2014
Location
Columbia, SC US
5/11/2016 11:50am
Go to a farm store, tractor supply for me. Buy two 60cc syringes. Fill up one of them with brake fluid, push it through the bleeder up to the master. Use the other syringe to extract the fluid or if you don't care than just let it pour out. Tighten the bleeder as you're still pushing fluid in. The lever will still feel like shit, but there's no air in there anymore. Do the OEM process of pump lever, crack bleeder, etc until the lever feels good and firm.

Next go out and bed in the pads.
mb
Posts
769
Joined
7/22/2014
Location
Columbia, SC US
5/11/2016 11:51am


Slosh 112
Posts
1155
Joined
3/31/2014
Location
Mackay QLD AU
5/11/2016 12:27pm
mb wrote:
Go to a farm store, tractor supply for me. Buy two 60cc syringes. Fill up one of them with brake fluid, push it through the bleeder...
Go to a farm store, tractor supply for me. Buy two 60cc syringes. Fill up one of them with brake fluid, push it through the bleeder up to the master. Use the other syringe to extract the fluid or if you don't care than just let it pour out. Tighten the bleeder as you're still pushing fluid in. The lever will still feel like shit, but there's no air in there anymore. Do the OEM process of pump lever, crack bleeder, etc until the lever feels good and firm.

Next go out and bed in the pads.
Yes this is the fail safe method for pain in the ass brake systems. I tried everything on my friends CRF and a syringe is the only thing that worked.
FGR01
Posts
5436
Joined
10/1/2006
Location
AZ US
Fantasy
697th
5/11/2016 2:56pm
Yes, pushing the fluid from the bottom up with a syringe does 99% of the work.

Also, I think you need to address your caliper. On a bike that old you might as well just rebuild it and make sure the pins are cleaned and greased and that the pistons do not have rust or pitting that is dragging on the seals.

And any dirt biker who plans to ride for any length of time should do themselves a huge favor and spend $25 - $30 for one of these. Worth its weight in gold. Especially if you own a bike with a hydraulic clutch.

YZ125H1
Posts
766
Joined
1/31/2012
Location
Elizabethtown, PA US
5/11/2016 3:13pm
Have you checked the pistons for proper operation? A full rebuild of the caliper is a good idea make sure you get the right grease too.
cwtoyota
Posts
2117
Joined
3/11/2013
Location
Tacoma, WA US
5/11/2016 7:29pm
MP261 wrote:
Disclaimer: I know this is a common topic but many of the threads are dead ends. Rebuilt my '03 CR250 over the winter which included new...
Disclaimer: I know this is a common topic but many of the threads are dead ends.

Rebuilt my '03 CR250 over the winter which included new pads and rotors. While the front brake grabs, it is super spongy. Once it's 'biting' the rotor I can still pull the lever past that point and almost to the bar.

I've gone through all of the common trouble shooting methods including;
Bleed, and bleed again, and again...
master cylinder rebuild kit
zip-tie the lever and leave it for a few hours
put on a braided line
O/S rotor
rotors and pads are clean and free of any contamination

The only item left that could be the culprit is the caliper... is it possible that when pushing the pistons back in when changing the pads something like a seal blew?

Any advice would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!

I think you still have air trapped in the system. This is the method I use on stubborn brakes, it never fails because trapped air wants to float up to the top. If your parts are good, this will get ALL the air out.

1) Take the brake caliper and hose off of the bike (without disconnecting them from the system).

2) Have someone hold the lever in or put a wire tie on it to build some pressure.

3) Raise the caliper up so that the bleeder is the highest point in the entire brake system and the hose doesn't dip down below the master cylinder.

4) Open the bleeder and use something to compress the pistons all the way into the caliper. If you leave the brake pads in there, you can use something like a plastic Irwin Quick Grip to squeeze in the pistons. (Make sure you keep the bleeder pointing up and higher than the rest of the system.

5) Close the bleeder.

6) Make sure the reservoir is full of fluid before letting off of the lever.

7) Slide something about the thickness of your rotor between the brake pads. I use a motion-pro flat tire iron.

8) Pump the lever until the brake pads bite down on your "shim". (The caliper is still higher than the rest of the system).

9) Repeat steps 4, 5 and 6.

10) Bolt the caliper back on the fork lug and pump the brakes up to build pressure.


A vacuum bleeder helps and a setup that allows you to reverse bleed the brakes using pressure is also a great way to ensure the air is 100% removed.
walent215
Posts
2454
Joined
12/6/2014
Location
Ridgecrest, CA US
5/12/2016 3:29am
Vacuum bleed then zip tie lever to the bars overnight....has worked great for me.....if you don't have a vacuum system then just do the no rmal bleed routine and tie the lever to the bar overnight....
CrGuy2T
Posts
4327
Joined
3/11/2015
Location
Santa Fe, TX US
Fantasy
4207th
5/12/2016 5:51am
Go on eBay and buy a newer complet brake set up from 05 and up, swap the hanger and love your front brake.
MP261
Posts
79
Joined
2/4/2015
Location
CA
5/12/2016 5:52am
Thanks again, lots of sound advice here.

Going to try the syringe method mb mentioned and p/u a caliper rebuild kit.

Yeah, the braided lines I got came with new banjos and washers.

To all the guys saying there is still probably air trapped in the lines; even though when cracking the bleeder during a normal bleed procedure and there's no more air coming out just fluid, there can still be air trapped?
Paw Paw 271
Posts
3640
Joined
4/3/2013
Location
Benton, LA US
5/12/2016 6:25am
Yes, air will go to the highest point in the system. Remember that the master cylinder only moves a very small amount of fluid and thus is hard to get the air out.

Paw Paw
809
Posts
350
Joined
6/2/2014
Location
Paducah, KY US
5/12/2016 6:42am
I think you will be surprised to see air bubble out the master cylinder when you try the syringe like I mentioned, as well as the other guys. Once you try it, you won't bleed brakes any other way. It is much faster and makes it an easy one man job.
Tracktor
Posts
2347
Joined
8/17/2006
Location
The RTF/Amboy, WA US
5/12/2016 10:13am
Are your brake pad retainer spring/clips installed correctly? It sounds like something is keeping the pads from pushing out tight to the rotor. Try pulling pads and sticking something else to keep the pistons from popping and see what happens and how it feels............
MP261
Posts
79
Joined
2/4/2015
Location
CA
5/12/2016 10:45am
Tracktor wrote:
Are your brake pad retainer spring/clips installed correctly? It sounds like something is keeping the pads from pushing out tight to the rotor. Try pulling pads...
Are your brake pad retainer spring/clips installed correctly? It sounds like something is keeping the pads from pushing out tight to the rotor. Try pulling pads and sticking something else to keep the pistons from popping and see what happens and how it feels............
I believe so, yes. Not quite sure I understand what you mean...

Leave the caliper mounted? remove the pads? Then...


MP261
Posts
79
Joined
2/4/2015
Location
CA
5/12/2016 10:51am
CrGuy2T wrote:
Go on eBay and buy a newer complet brake set up from 05 and up, swap the hanger and love your front brake.
cslacker wrote:
2007 CRF's and up are the newer style master cylinder. All you really need to know about CR brakes: http://www.crfstuff.com/productimages.html
Having searched the internet high and low for brake stuff I've noticed '00 to '03 part compatibility for front brake stuff, and then '04 to '07 for again brake components. Did the forks change after '03 (Ie. different caliper mounting)?
mb
Posts
769
Joined
7/22/2014
Location
Columbia, SC US
5/12/2016 11:10am
The brake caliper bracket got smaller in 04ish. The master cyl is the same from like 97/99 to 07ish
scooter5002
Posts
4755
Joined
6/6/2010
Location
Nanton Alberta CA
5/12/2016 11:22am
One other thing you can do is go out and ride motos, when you're finished, immediately bleed the brakes. Do it a couple of times, and if it doesn't fix the problem, you have something else wrong. I have an 04 CR450 with a stainless line, and my brakes are stout. No spongy lever on mine. Always used the vacuum pump on mine when I install the line, then finish off as I described.
Tracktor
Posts
2347
Joined
8/17/2006
Location
The RTF/Amboy, WA US
5/13/2016 10:49am
Tracktor wrote:
Are your brake pad retainer spring/clips installed correctly? It sounds like something is keeping the pads from pushing out tight to the rotor. Try pulling pads...
Are your brake pad retainer spring/clips installed correctly? It sounds like something is keeping the pads from pushing out tight to the rotor. Try pulling pads and sticking something else to keep the pistons from popping and see what happens and how it feels............
MP261 wrote:
I believe so, yes. Not quite sure I understand what you mean...

Leave the caliper mounted? remove the pads? Then...


Remove pads and replace with something solid for the pistons to hit so they don't pop out. Caliper and be mounted or not. Pump brakes up and see how the lever feels. If it's solid now you have a mechanical issue if not it's a hydraulic issue.........
Matt Fisher
Posts
3949
Joined
4/1/2008
Location
Visalia, CA US
Fantasy
528th
5/13/2016 12:10pm
I learned a little trick years ago. Instead of doing the "clamp down, open then close bleeder. Repeat." method I do this:

-I take a length of tubing that fits over the bleeder and place the other end in water. This keeps air from being drawn back into the caliper.
-Crack the bleeder just enough to let pressure out and start slowly pumping the brakes. If you use a clear container for the water and brake fluid, you can watch it come out of the tubing. Make sure the master stays full, it's easy to let it run low since the bleeding process is much quicker.
-Tighten the bleeder, remove the line.

Post a reply to: Brake Expertise Required

The Latest