04 Honda CR250

insane one
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Edited Date/Time 10/3/2013 2:20pm
My son has a 2004 Honda cr250. the bore and stroke is the same as a 2005-2007 Honda CR250. They say the power curve on the 2005-07 CR250 is better. I would like to know if I can swap out the 04 cylinder to and 05-07 cylinder. Will it bolt on the 04 cases? ThanksSmile
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scooter5002
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3/18/2012 6:31pm
It will, however what made the later years better is not restricted to the cylinder alone. Ignition module and timing, possibly the powervalve timing was changed. Perhaps an increase in compression to give it some grunt. It will probably take more than just a cylinder to fix the 04 power. I had an 02 and I remember how it worked. Awesome midrange and ZERO everywhere else. Thrill ride on a sand track. Blue groove hard pack...........not so much.
insane one
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3/18/2012 6:37pm
Is it possible to change all the things you mentioned to a 05-07on his 04 CR250? Nice bike in profile is that yet another Service Honda CR500AF I see? If it is Awsome mine is a 2010 CR500AF.Wink
scooter5002
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3/19/2012 7:56am Edited Date/Time 3/19/2012 7:57am
Again, the answer it "It is". My question is "How much do you want to spend? Do some hard reserach and find out what you need. Go to the dealer websites and compare part numbers and see what's different year to year. Cylinder head #, piston #, etc. If the black box number is the same then you don't need it. Seems to me there was a fellow from Bermuda posting here a few months back that was quite knowledgeable with these bikes. Jason Hooper maybe? He might me a good guy to ask. My knowledge is general only.
Actually, I'm not sure what that is for a bike, other than a 500AF. I have one, thats not it. Lol. TerryK posted that for me, after first having Justin Beiber up (asshole) a righteous female booty in a bikini (2 thumbs up asshole) and THEN it was a fucking clown (I still haven't made to Thunder Bay to kill him for that. Yet). Mines an 04 conversion.
I just had billet aluminum clutch and ign covers milled up. 25 sets. Plain, no logos,clutch has an extra 100 mil oil capacity built in. 6061 T6 material. $110 Cdn a side preferably in pairs, so I'm not stuck with oddballs. Right now I have a couple extra ign covers. Also have access to cheap laser engraving for custom logos. Let me know.
How far is Red Creek from Buffalo? That name doesn't ring a bell with me.
insane one
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3/19/2012 9:55am
Maybe if I just send the cylinder and head to PC. Then get the Keihin and FMF Fatty with Shorty Silencer. I may get what he wants out of it. Red Creek is about 3 to 4 hrs east of Buffalo. Still near the Lake lol.

The Shop

CamP
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3/19/2012 12:09pm
Is your son riding MX? What level is he and what are your tracks like? What does he not like about the power delivery?
insane one
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3/19/2012 12:32pm Edited Date/Time 3/19/2012 12:33pm
Well the engine is still stock. Yes MX. So he want it to pull harder down low to mid. His favorite track is soft to intermediate. The track he rides the most is a sand track. We have both TransWorld 04 CR250 upgrade test. One with Varner Unleashed Fury and Pro Circuit Gourmet Feast. He likes what PC did and wants them to do his head and cylinder. But he wants to run the FMF Fatty Pipe and Shorty silencer. I just thought it mite be easier to just switch the cylinder to a 05-07. Scooter5002 said I would need more than the cylinder. So I changed my sons mindWink . But i will try and get one of the carbs scooter5002 told me about. Thanks to all.Smile
scooter5002
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3/19/2012 12:43pm
Sorry buddy, but it wasn't me that mentioned those carb swaps. I think Cam mentioned that in MXskillz thread. Again, do some hard research, don't take my word for it. Sounds like Cam knows how to make one of those things run.
I wouldn't send my stuff to PC if it was free, but that's just me. You overpay for something that any good knowledgeable local porter and engine guy can do for far less. It's not like Mitch Payton is doing the job himself. He's got a bunch of $8 an hour grunts working out back with a Dremel and a spec sheet. You are subsidizing his race efforts, to about the tune of double what you pay a good guy closer to home.
PC
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3/19/2012 3:50pm
Keihin pwk 38mm airstryker. Can be had from service Honda for $170 new (ask for a 99 cr250r Carb). Or you could spend an extra $70 for jd's kit that comes with 2 shitty needles!

Want a fast bike with lots of snap? Advance the timing & run race fuel.
Run taller gearing to compensate for the loss of top end. Cheap and effective.... except for the race fuel!

I went the big bore route on my yz and punched it to a 285. Stock porting except the middle intake needed to be realigned and pretty high compression with a tight squish. No dissapointments with power. Just wish I did the wr450 3-5 gear swap as its way too much motor for the close ratio mx trans. Also have to be vigilant with watching crank slop as I don't have much wiggle room with the squish tightened up.
CamP
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3/19/2012 5:15pm
insane one, you should be able to get your bike running well with just a properly jetting Keihin PWK Air Striker and a little machine work to the base of the cylinder and the head. Personally, I feel the aftermarket pipes and reed blocks are a waste of money on the CR250.

Because the Mikuni w/ TPS on your 04 is 75mm long, I would not recommend the OEM 99/00 CR250 carb or the aftermarket PWK, as they are 91mm long. These carbs are identified by a round twist-on cap. Keihin makes a 75mm long version of the PWK Air Striker carb that's the OEM carb for the YZ, SX, RM and KX250. These carbs are identified by a bolt-on cap, and they will fit your 04 more properly.

The '00-up YZ250 carb is the easiest to find used. If you go this route, you will need to epoxy shut the fuel circuit for the powerjet, then jet it like a standard 38mm PWK. A good starting point is a CEJ needle @ #4 clip, a 180 main, a 50 pilot, and the air screw @ 2 turns out. The YZ comes with a #7 slide, which is ideal for the 38mm carb. I would also recommend running it with the TPS disconnected as the 3D ignition timing map is a mess. Generally, you can find used YZ carbs for less than $100, but the downside of used parts is sometimes they are junk.

If you would prefer a new carb, the 250SX carb is a great option, especially if your goal is more low/mid power because the SX250's PWK has a 36mm bore. The body of the SX carb is casted for the TPS and powerjet, but neither feature is actually used, so you won't have to epoxy the powerjet circuit like you would on the YZ, RM or KX carbs. The stock SX jetting should also be a good starting point. You can find a new 250SX carb for as little as $272.

For the engine, the first thing you should do is measure the squish between the crown of the piston and the head's squish band. The ideal dimension for this should be .050". On my 07 CR250, the stock squish was .080" so I milled .030" off the base of the cylinder to correct the squish. This also lowered the ports and increased compression at the same time. All these things combine to pump up the low/mid power and you'll still have good over-rev if you leave the TPS disconnected because that retards the ignition timing. Eric Gorr will lower the cylinder .030" and cut the head for any fuel that you specify for only $75. I have mine set up with higher compression for 100LL avgas. Eric Gorr

Here's a link that outlines the squish band measurement process. Squish Band Measurement

The bike will run night and day better with these simple modifications.
insane one
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3/19/2012 6:00pm
CamP, Thanks alot. I have been thinking about about Eric Gore for a while. I am going to use him for my CR500AF for sure. I just wanted more info as far as his work on the 04 CR250. Would you be interested in being on my freinds page. So I can contact you if I have anymore questions.?
CamP
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3/19/2012 6:02pm Edited Date/Time 3/19/2012 6:02pm
insane one wrote:
CamP, Thanks alot. I have been thinking about about Eric Gore for a while. I am going to use him for my CR500AF for sure. I...
CamP, Thanks alot. I have been thinking about about Eric Gore for a while. I am going to use him for my CR500AF for sure. I just wanted more info as far as his work on the 04 CR250. Would you be interested in being on my freinds page. So I can contact you if I have anymore questions.?
Sure, but it will probably be easier if you email me at campotter@yahoo.com
scooter5002
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3/19/2012 7:17pm
Like I said. Cam knows a lot more specifically about how to get these running better. Wish I'd talked to you myself when I had my 02, Cam. Might still own it. Lol
CamP
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3/19/2012 7:40pm
Like I said. Cam knows a lot more specifically about how to get these running better. Wish I'd talked to you myself when I had my...
Like I said. Cam knows a lot more specifically about how to get these running better. Wish I'd talked to you myself when I had my 02, Cam. Might still own it. Lol
Yeah, I'm sure a lot of 02-07 CR250's are gathering dust because their owner's don't like how they run. The upside is it's easy, and fairly inexpensive, to remedy.
scooter5002
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3/19/2012 7:48pm
If those bikes had at least bottom end, even without offering top, they would have been so much better. Just the "all midrange" thing killed those bikes. Shame, because they were great bikes with a lousy motor. Great suspension handling and ergonomics. The motor just took away so much from the overall package.
CamP
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3/19/2012 8:06pm
If those bikes had at least bottom end, even without offering top, they would have been so much better. Just the "all midrange" thing killed those...
If those bikes had at least bottom end, even without offering top, they would have been so much better. Just the "all midrange" thing killed those bikes. Shame, because they were great bikes with a lousy motor. Great suspension handling and ergonomics. The motor just took away so much from the overall package.
Yep, and the 05-07 were actually worse because the mid-range hit got even more explosive. The first time I rode my new 07 I thought it had one of the worst power deliveries I've ever ridden with. No bottom at all, then a unpredictable mid-range hit that felt like all 50hp was unleashed all at once, just like MXA described in their reviews. Where MXA was wrong was their thinking that the CR250 engine needed a complete re-design. It's amazing that a carb swap, a disconnected TPS and a little machining transformed this bike so much. Now it has one of the best 250 engines I've ever ridden with. I think it would have been winning some 250 shootouts if Honda would have set it up like this.
Hando
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3/19/2012 9:26pm
I've heard the hot setup is using an 05-07 airbox/boot to improve the low end in conjunction with using a kehin PWK

I'd get the bike jetted right before you spend big bucks on mods...throw on a set of pipes and reeds and jet it and let it rip.
PC
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3/20/2012 8:02am Edited Date/Time 3/20/2012 8:04am
Nice info CamP!

Quick question, please.... On mu Husky cr125 I replaced the Mikuni 38mm TMX-X (new style) with a 36mm PWK 'shorty' from a 1999 kx125. I removed the TPS arm, epoxied the hole in the cap left by the missing arm, cut the wiring, but I left the solenoid looking thing in place as I saw no harm in it being there. I did not close the circuit for the powerjet though..nor did I remove the needle-looking metering device for the TPS. Do I need to epoxy that pwr jet hole!? How about the metering arm?

The bike runs super hard after I get past the unresponsive low end, but something doesn't feel quite right below 1/4 throttle. I've had the needle in the middle clip since day 1 (last fall), but its warmer out now, so it might be drowning in fuel at low throttle openings or could that powerjet be contributing to the problem? My 36 had a fully functional TPS system, so this has me wondering.

Also, if anyone uses RB Design's squish measurement procedure then please consider sending him the business as I dont think he made those instructions for other tuners prosperity. He'll measure the dome volume, mill the head and reset the dome volume for chump change. Decking the cylinder would cost extra, but he's more than capable. He will not port plated cylinders or work on 4-stroke heads. Period!

He's also one of my friends and I dont like him working harder than necessary to put food on other people plates.

Hope I dont sound like too much of a bitch Smile

Thanks!
CamP
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3/20/2012 9:58am Edited Date/Time 3/20/2012 10:15am
Yes, you need to epoxy closed the powerjet's fuel circuit. It will feed fuel all the time if you don't seal it off. For 125 jetting with a PWK, I would start with a DDJ (R1468F) or DDK (R1469F) needle @ #2 clip, 188 main and a 48/50 pilot.
CamP
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3/20/2012 5:56pm
Hando wrote:
I've heard the hot setup is using an 05-07 airbox/boot to improve the low end in conjunction with using a kehin PWK I'd get the bike...
I've heard the hot setup is using an 05-07 airbox/boot to improve the low end in conjunction with using a kehin PWK

I'd get the bike jetted right before you spend big bucks on mods...throw on a set of pipes and reeds and jet it and let it rip.
The 04-07 CR250 airbox boots are all the same.
Hando
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3/21/2012 10:45am
Hando wrote:
I've heard the hot setup is using an 05-07 airbox/boot to improve the low end in conjunction with using a kehin PWK I'd get the bike...
I've heard the hot setup is using an 05-07 airbox/boot to improve the low end in conjunction with using a kehin PWK

I'd get the bike jetted right before you spend big bucks on mods...throw on a set of pipes and reeds and jet it and let it rip.
CamP wrote:
The 04-07 CR250 airbox boots are all the same.
So they just fixed the sealing problems in 05?

The 04 supposedly has the leak
captmoto
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3/21/2012 3:28pm
Hando, no, it's still plastic with a metal ring on the outside and nibs, nubs that don't let the filter seat real tight. You can use a 98/99 boot and all the hardware along with some carving to get metal on both sides for a good seal or use MXbonz kit. Since I just bought 2 new filters I will use the MXbonz. kit. You need to use the 98/99 air filters.
CamP
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3/21/2012 6:23pm
Hando wrote:
I've heard the hot setup is using an 05-07 airbox/boot to improve the low end in conjunction with using a kehin PWK I'd get the bike...
I've heard the hot setup is using an 05-07 airbox/boot to improve the low end in conjunction with using a kehin PWK

I'd get the bike jetted right before you spend big bucks on mods...throw on a set of pipes and reeds and jet it and let it rip.
CamP wrote:
The 04-07 CR250 airbox boots are all the same.
Hando wrote:
So they just fixed the sealing problems in 05?

The 04 supposedly has the leak
The 04-07 airbox parts are all identical. In 04, Honda began using a foam gasket to seal the boot to the airbox.
CamP
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3/21/2012 6:26pm
captmoto wrote:
Hando, no, it's still plastic with a metal ring on the outside and nibs, nubs that don't let the filter seat real tight. You can use...
Hando, no, it's still plastic with a metal ring on the outside and nibs, nubs that don't let the filter seat real tight. You can use a 98/99 boot and all the hardware along with some carving to get metal on both sides for a good seal or use MXbonz kit. Since I just bought 2 new filters I will use the MXbonz. kit. You need to use the 98/99 air filters.
I haven't greased an air filter in 15 years, but when I saw those nubs on my new 07 CR250, I decided to grease the filter on this bike. I always pull the airbox of every bike I own when I service the filter. This allows me to press the greased rim around each of those nubs on my 07 CR.
insane one
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3/23/2012 7:00pm
Cam I have a question for ya. What would happen if I just unplugged the TPS on the Makuni carb? Would the bike still run, are there any bennefits of unhooking it? Or would it cause it not to run? Just want to know if it would be safe to do. I also checked out Keihin carbs. The only carb that I found that matches what you described was a PWM not the PWK. The PWM was 75mm long and that had the bolt on style top. The PWK was 91mm long and that had the twist top. I was wondering if that is what you ment? Thanks
CamP
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3/23/2012 10:23pm Edited Date/Time 3/23/2012 10:37pm
insane one wrote:
Cam I have a question for ya. What would happen if I just unplugged the TPS on the Makuni carb? Would the bike still run, are...
Cam I have a question for ya. What would happen if I just unplugged the TPS on the Makuni carb? Would the bike still run, are there any bennefits of unhooking it? Or would it cause it not to run? Just want to know if it would be safe to do. I also checked out Keihin carbs. The only carb that I found that matches what you described was a PWM not the PWK. The PWM was 75mm long and that had the bolt on style top. The PWK was 91mm long and that had the twist top. I was wondering if that is what you ment? Thanks
I never tried running the stock Mikuni with the TPS disconnected, but all that does is revert the ignition to a standard timing map, so it should work fine.

The PWM is not what you want. All the OEM PWK Air Striker carbs with the bolt-on tops are 75mm long and fit the 04-07 CR250's perfectly. This includes late model SX, YZ, RM250 OEM carbs. If you want a new carb, the SX is the least expensive at $270 and the jetting should be close right out of the box. Used YZ carbs can be found for less than $100. The YZ/RM carbs require that you epoxy the powerjet circuit shut and rejet the needle, pilot and main jets for use without it. I use a YZ carb with a CEJ needle at #4 clip, 180 main, 50 pilot and air screw at 2 out. The YZ carbs come with a #7 slide, which is ideal for the 38mm carbs.

Here's what the YZ carb looks like.



Hando
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3/25/2012 2:59pm Edited Date/Time 3/25/2012 3:02pm
@Camp

So by sealing up the power jet, you're not running any of the carb electronics?

I believe a guy on TT was running the YZ carb on his 05 cr250 and had the electronics wired up
mxgirl75
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8/30/2013 11:22am
I'm going to go look at a 2004 tonight.. I hope the bike has not been thrashed and not taken care of.... Going to be interesting to see how it runs and if it is all mid range and nothing else..
mxgirl75
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10/3/2013 2:20pm
I ended up with a 2002 CR250R, unfortunately the bike needs a lot of help (many years of neglect). So far, all new bearings everywhere on the bike. Linkage and swingarm were rusted solid, rear shock blown. Front forks leaking. All of that has been fixed. The bike came with a Pro Circuit Platinum pipe on it. I opted for VForce reeds, I am not against sending the cylinder and head to Eric Gorr though. It does have the stock Mikuni on it. I want to see how the bike rides once I get it back together before I make more changes. It had oil leak on gaskets and seals, all fixed. Sprockets, chain all bad, all new stuff installed. Seat was ripped, covered with a Throttle Jockey cover. New plastics everywhere except the shrouds.

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