Value of Vintage Mx bikes----Part 2

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11/19/2018 7:58 AM

Since the original thread was hijacked and ran completely off the rails, I was hoping to get it back on track .

So what makes one bike worth more than another ?? Is it because of low production numbers like the 74 YZ360A (632) and 78 Harley MX250( supposedly 1,000) ? Or is it because it was a popular bike in the day that everyone raced at one time or another as in the Red Rockets or 76-78 Rm125's ? Or is it because it was the first of a model or the last of a model like the last air-cooled RM250 Full-floater. Or because it was deemed as one of the best bikes ever built -- 81 Maico 490 ? All of those reasons play a part in someones perception of value.

Speaking of the HD 250mx, that is one I really don't understand. I've seen ones in somewhat below average condition bring 5-7k and nice ones hit the 10k mark. Can't figure out why those are so popular. They weren't very good back in the day and I've run across at least 10-12 for sell or at races ,where as I have NEVER seen a 74 YZ360A for sale or in the flesh anywhere. Although I've heard a nice one would fetch 8-10k,its all conjecture as I've never run across one advertised.

So my conclusion is that low production numbers certainly play a part in the high-dollar bikes,but what about the rest ? In most cases, (at least mine) the Vintage collector starts with the bikes he owned/raced back in the day then moves on to bikes he WISHED he had raced but never did. Then progresses to bikes needed to "round out" a certain collection, lol THEN maybe moves on to bikes that may have the "blue sky" appeal.

Just recently found an 81 KX250 that is probably the cleanest bike I have bought(most being somewhat basket-cases), This one is 95% original and just new spokes and reconditioned tank away from being almost show-room. The guy originally wanted $ 3000, had it on Mark's for almost a year, dropping the price every other month or so. One late Sunday evening the wife and I are watching the tube (in this case her iPad and my laptop) and I see the KX back on Marks and say to her " if this dude ever drops to 1700,im buying it" well as I scroll down I see he has written an exasperated ad and has dropped it to 1400, so I called him and bought it. He was completely shocked that nobody was interested in that bike. The only reason I even grabbed it was that back in 81 when I first met my wife, I was 2 years removed from racing and she surprised me with one 6 months into dating so I would return to racing. And although I never did start racing again until 3 years ago,and the KX wasn't a particularly great bike ,that bike has special meaning to us. So, there are many,many reasons guys buy different models.

Typically I have found that the price range of a decently kept/rider restoration is the 1200-2200 range for just about any Japanese make/model. Probably 2000-3000 for the Euro brands Husky,Maico CZ . Obviously complete/full restorations or specialty builds values are only in the eye of the beholder.

I've also noticed a fairly large difference between West coast and East coast pricing, with the West being much more affordably priced. However, for us here on the East , by the time you pay your transporter the 350-500 to get it home it just about evens out.

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11/19/2018 10:43 AM
Edited Date/Time: 11/19/2018 10:43 AM

You see that 79 Husky 250 that just went for $12K ? Or the $4K Hodaka Super Rat ?Two more that were never that great of bikes IMO. Seems like there are some out there that will buy the "right" bike. Must have some meaning to those individuals.

I have a line on a 1971 Kawasaki G31M Centurion. It is very original, low hour, and nobody will ever find it. Many NOS parts go with it. I'm thinking $6-8K for all of it is what I am going to ask for it. All or nothing.

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11/19/2018 11:39 AM

IMO, there are not that many bikes out there the have an "actual cash value" based on exclusivity or low production numbers. They are worth what someone is willing to pay for them. With few exceptions, if you are doing a museum quality restoration (not the typical garden variety job), don't ever expect to recover your costs, much less profit from this endeavor. Personally, again with some exception, I would not be surprised to see the vintage MX bike market shrink as those coming up behind us have no vested interest in something they have never ridden or owned. If I had an extra 10 grand laying around, I would love to have the Bultaco 350 Pursang I raced back in 1973..... or the CZ 380 I once had. I do have a 1978 CR250 Honda I have spent a stupid amount of money on that I would not part with....it means that much to me, and therein lies the value in these old bikes.....
What is it worth to YOU?

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11/19/2018 12:33 PM

oldsocalmxr wrote:

IMO, there are not that many bikes out there the have an "actual cash value" based on exclusivity or low production numbers. They are worth what someone is willing to pay for them. With few exceptions, if you are doing a museum quality restoration (not the typical garden variety job), don't ever expect to recover your costs, much less profit from this endeavor. Personally, again with some exception, I would not be surprised to see the vintage MX bike market shrink as those coming up behind us have no vested interest in something they have never ridden or owned. If I had an extra 10 grand laying around, I would love to have the Bultaco 350 Pursang I raced back in 1973..... or the CZ 380 I once had. I do have a 1978 CR250 Honda I have spent a stupid amount of money on that I would not part with....it means that much to me, and therein lies the value in these old bikes.....
What is it worth to YOU?

Yep--like I mentioned ,all in the eye of the beholder. And you're right about that once our generation is "done" our bikes will most likely just be forgotten by most. Makes me feel REALLY old when these young dudes refer to late 90's and early 00's as "vintage " pinch

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11/19/2018 2:20 PM

It's not different from any other market in terms of individual deals, but because of the small number of data points it's hard to extrapolate objective value akin to appraising a house where there are lots of comparables and multiple buyers in the market.

Price is what a seller is willing to accept and a buyer to pay. If, however, the value in the seller's mind exceeds the value the buyer is willing to pay, all you can really say is that the item has more value to its owner than it's buyer. There are tons of those silent transactions where no one even makes an offer because the price.

To me it's really a question of who wants what and what is the cost of making that available where the buyer is. And given the small number of potential buyers, who has money on a given day. I got over begrudging people I thought were way above market with asking price because VMX really is a niche where some guy may put a real premium over "market" price on what he's willing to pay to get the bike his mom put under the Christmas tree when he was 11. There's no harm in asking.

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11/19/2018 2:27 PM

Here's a gut check: https://sfbay.craigslist.org/sby/mcy/d/1978-maico-250cc-dirt-bike/6752213462.html

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So, is this $6500 Maico, or a $2500 Maico with $4K of Fox stuff?

I think it's a fair price, and almost made me flinch, but it's a $6500 opportunity cost and there are a handful of other bikes Id rather have.

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Twitter: @ftemoto
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11/19/2018 3:45 PM

Michael, I think your second observation is correct. IMO, that's a 2300-2800 bike with the stock pieces. But if you were going to scare up the Fox pieces separately ,you'd have 2500 in the Forx/clamps , 1500 in the Airshox/arm combo,so in that respect its worth the money. Now, If the owner was throwing in the stock pieces as well, I'd consider grabbing it. I'd use the Forx and Airs on another build and return the Maico to nearly stock suspension.But thats me, 10 other guys will have 10 other opinions. Thats what makes it fun

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11/19/2018 5:57 PM
Edited Date/Time: 11/19/2018 5:58 PM

FreshTopEnd wrote:

Here's a gut check: https://sfbay.craigslist.org/sby/mcy/d/1978-maico-250cc-dirt-bike/6752213462.html

Photo

So, is this $6500 Maico, or a $2500 Maico with $4K of Fox stuff?

I think it's a fair price, and almost made me flinch, but it's a $6500 opportunity cost and there are a handful of other bikes Id rather have.

My chances of finding another $350.00 set of Fox Forx are getting slimmer and slimmer...laughing

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11/19/2018 6:02 PM

FreshTopEnd wrote:

Here's a gut check: https://sfbay.craigslist.org/sby/mcy/d/1978-maico-250cc-dirt-bike/6752213462.html

Photo

So, is this $6500 Maico, or a $2500 Maico with $4K of Fox stuff?

I think it's a fair price, and almost made me flinch, but it's a $6500 opportunity cost and there are a handful of other bikes Id rather have.

newmann wrote:

My chances of finding another $350.00 set of Fox Forx are getting slimmer and slimmer...laughing

YOU will Joe, the rest of us will still only find the $ 2500 sets !!. dizzy

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11/19/2018 6:26 PM

The other thread got started with the value of a 74 CR250. A friend of mine had a pretty nice 74 that he used to race with us back around 2001-2004 that he wanted to sell. It had not run in quite a few years and he was asking what he could get for it in a non running state. It had a clean DG pipe on it and a set of Works Performance steel body shocks that he bought new back in 2000/01. The pipe was about 150.00 back then and the shocks were about $275.00. He was asking $2500.00 for it and not getting much response. Offers were in the $1700.00-$1800.00 range. I told him to put the original pipe and shocks back on it, take off the race numbers and try again as a resto project and not a non running race bike. Also told him to sell the DG pipe for $150,00 and the shocks for 275.00. All of a sudden he had people offering him $2750.00 for the bike and trying to get to it before someone else did. The pipe and shocks were sold within a day.

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11/19/2018 6:53 PM

And then you have the money pit. I have raced this thing off and on since 1992 in one form or another. Sold the race motor out of it when I ate shit in Colorado in 93, built another engine out of spares for “therapy” while I recovered. Completely went through it around 99 and sunk about four grand in the engine package and nos gearbox that was worked over as well. Raced it hard up through 2005 and occasionally a few times a year after. Destroyed a frame and swingarm somewhere in there, broke off a billet chain guide that did not go through the rear sprocket but did rip the countershaft out of the cases...yikes, that was a mess but the tranny miraculously survived!

Decided a couple years ago to freshen it up and go have some more fun. Went through the whole bike front to rear. Race Tech fork job and Race Techs our rear. New tires, tubes, chain, sprockets, plastics, paint, cables, a all new custom Stevie Denton transmission, Millenium plated cylinder, crank rebuild and high end crank and tranny bearings. Dumped about 6-7 grand into it and had a auxiliary fuel jug hanging on the bars getting ready to fire it when the house flooded. One year later she finally cranked off . Can’t find the time to tune it or ride it but dammit it is almost ready!


Don’t look too close because it still has old beat up hardware on it, it is after all still a race bike.


What is it worth? Not even going there, I will probably be buried with this one.


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11/19/2018 7:11 PM

Good dialogue going here guys....

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11/19/2018 7:25 PM

newmann wrote:

And then you have the money pit. I have raced this thing off and on since 1992 in one form or another. Sold the race motor out of it when I ate shit in Colorado in 93, built another engine out of spares for “therapy” while I recovered. Completely went through it around 99 and sunk about four grand in the engine package and nos gearbox that was worked over as well. Raced it hard up through 2005 and occasionally a few times a year after. Destroyed a frame and swingarm somewhere in there, broke off a billet chain guide that did not go through the rear sprocket but did rip the countershaft out of the cases...yikes, that was a mess but the tranny miraculously survived!

Decided a couple years ago to freshen it up and go have some more fun. Went through the whole bike front to rear. Race Tech fork job and Race Techs our rear. New tires, tubes, chain, sprockets, plastics, paint, cables, a all new custom Stevie Denton transmission, Millenium plated cylinder, crank rebuild and high end crank and tranny bearings. Dumped about 6-7 grand into it and had a auxiliary fuel jug hanging on the bars getting ready to fire it when the house flooded. One year later she finally cranked off . Can’t find the time to tune it or ride it but dammit it is almost ready!


Don’t look too close because it still has old beat up hardware on it, it is after all still a race bike.


What is it worth? Not even going there, I will probably be buried with this one.


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Beautiful bike! My first vintage resto was this model...took about 3 years on & off...rode it a few times when it was completed but I must of had 40.0hrs into the body & paint work... Did not want to destroy it. Sold it to a guy that owns a golf course , he told me it was for display on the 19th hole. .there are a few very nice original 125 & 250 elsinores that pop up for sale around me, Currently a 125 is listed for 6500.00

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11/19/2018 7:34 PM

As a die hard Suzuki lover, I searched for A long time to find an 81 RM 250. I paid more than I wanted to for it, then put a lot more into it .....and will likely never sell it.... Photo
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11/19/2018 8:56 PM

What's the value of this? For me, it's priceless. This something I'll never sell and the only bike I've ever kept. A lot of memories of my youth with this bike. It's my full Pro Circuit Husqvarna 250CR when I was supported by Payton back in 81.

All original, matching #'s, full PC race bike from that era. Boost bottle, drilled fork damping rods, Rick Ash pipe, bead blasted cases, etc... The fork sliders are white because at the end of 82 (the bike was sitting in the corner of the shop gather dust) Mike Guerra (then Anaheim Husky shop mechanic, now runs Yamaha amateur support) knew the 83 bikes would be white. He wanted to see what the white sliders would looked like. So when he replaced the leaky seals one day, he painted them white. The bike was originally for Tommy Croft to ride at Anaheim. He broke his leg a few weeks before the race and the bike was sitting there. Then I started getting a bit of support from PC and the bike became mine. Been in my hands ever since (except when it sat in the corner at PC during the 82 season gathering dust)

I saw Payton at the Vet Nationals a few weeks back and a bunch of us were laughing about old times back then. Great fun...

So who can decide the value of what things are worth? Depends how bad the buyer wants it I feel and what they are willing to pay for it. Everything is for sale for the right price.

Current:

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Back in the day:
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11/20/2018 5:18 AM

anniebertmojo wrote:

What's the value of this? For me, it's priceless. This something I'll never sell and the only bike I've ever kept. A lot of memories of my youth with this bike. It's my full Pro Circuit Husqvarna 250CR when I was supported by Payton back in 81.

All original, matching #'s, full PC race bike from that era. Boost bottle, drilled fork damping rods, Rick Ash pipe, bead blasted cases, etc... The fork sliders are white because at the end of 82 (the bike was sitting in the corner of the shop gather dust) Mike Guerra (then Anaheim Husky shop mechanic, now runs Yamaha amateur support) knew the 83 bikes would be white. He wanted to see what the white sliders would looked like. So when he replaced the leaky seals one day, he painted them white. The bike was originally for Tommy Croft to ride at Anaheim. He broke his leg a few weeks before the race and the bike was sitting there. Then I started getting a bit of support from PC and the bike became mine. Been in my hands ever since (except when it sat in the corner at PC during the 82 season gathering dust)

I saw Payton at the Vet Nationals a few weeks back and a bunch of us were laughing about old times back then. Great fun...

So who can decide the value of what things are worth? Depends how bad the buyer wants it I feel and what they are willing to pay for it. Everything is for sale for the right price.

Current:

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Back in the day:
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Awesome bike, with a more awesome documented history....to me , that increases the value.

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11/20/2018 7:50 AM

anniebertmojo wrote:

What's the value of this? For me, it's priceless. This something I'll never sell and the only bike I've ever kept. A lot of memories of my youth with this bike. It's my full Pro Circuit Husqvarna 250CR when I was supported by Payton back in 81.

All original, matching #'s, full PC race bike from that era. Boost bottle, drilled fork damping rods, Rick Ash pipe, bead blasted cases, etc... The fork sliders are white because at the end of 82 (the bike was sitting in the corner of the shop gather dust) Mike Guerra (then Anaheim Husky shop mechanic, now runs Yamaha amateur support) knew the 83 bikes would be white. He wanted to see what the white sliders would looked like. So when he replaced the leaky seals one day, he painted them white. The bike was originally for Tommy Croft to ride at Anaheim. He broke his leg a few weeks before the race and the bike was sitting there. Then I started getting a bit of support from PC and the bike became mine. Been in my hands ever since (except when it sat in the corner at PC during the 82 season gathering dust)

I saw Payton at the Vet Nationals a few weeks back and a bunch of us were laughing about old times back then. Great fun...

So who can decide the value of what things are worth? Depends how bad the buyer wants it I feel and what they are willing to pay for it. Everything is for sale for the right price.

Current:

Photo
Photo
Photo

Back in the day:
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sandman768 wrote:

Awesome bike, with a more awesome documented history....to me , that increases the value.

Funny that you say that. When I was talking to Payton a few weeks ago he said the same thing. He said I could get good $ for it. I told him it was a link to my childhood so it's not For Sale.

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11/20/2018 10:40 AM
Edited Date/Time: 11/20/2018 10:42 AM

Saw a fully restored 79 CR250 Hoosk bring $12K on one of those FB sites. It was nice, but $$$.

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11/21/2018 8:53 AM

The only people that don't see the value of a vintage bike are the people that never built one. Not even talking about a complete and total resto. Just bringing a bike back to a functional, safe race bike is big money. There are way too many tire kickers out there that think they should still be paying 1979 prices on pistons, tires, chains and sprockets etc. Also premium prices on NLA parts. I was surprised at some of the NLA parts for a 05 CR250 I had.

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The older I get, the faster I was.

11/21/2018 9:27 AM

captmoto wrote:

The only people that don't see the value of a vintage bike are the people that never built one. Not even talking about a complete and total resto. Just bringing a bike back to a functional, safe race bike is big money. There are way too many tire kickers out there that think they should still be paying 1979 prices on pistons, tires, chains and sprockets etc. Also premium prices on NLA parts. I was surprised at some of the NLA parts for a 05 CR250 I had.

So true, and if you find a reasonably priced semi-resto with supposedly rebuilt engine, I still find myself tearing it apart and confirming the work or re-doing it anyway,and same with all the bearings,seals and bushings. Its almost impossible to actually turn a profit building and reselling a vintage racer at this point. The retail market for a properly completed Vintage racer isn't strong enough to actually support the time and costs involved. Obviously there are exceptions ,but very very few. Even the dude that got the 12k for the 79 Hoosk, probably broke even if you count the hours put in even at a budget hourly rate. I know on several of mine that 12k wouldn't cover time and parts. But like most vintage builders, I built those for myself and possibly handing down to my daughter and son-in-law when I'm gone. Maybe by then they'll be worth a ton !! lol.

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11/21/2018 11:19 AM

This is an original well race prepped '84 YZ 250 I bought to race vintage with..... was a low time unit that had been "freshened up" by the previous owner....... I knew what I was looking at and purchased it. $1000.00 later, I had a bike I could race confidently on. During a moment of weakness, I had someone wanting to buy it, I told him $3500.00 including numerous spares that would go with it. He thought I had lost my mind. I kindly suggested he go try and build one for that kind of money. This is a sport we partake of for the love of the sport.....not any kind of monetary gaincool Photo

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11/21/2018 1:31 PM

In reference to the HarleyMX250. I think a lot has to do with, it was from an iconic American company. Then add the fact that its a one year low quantity bike. Doesn't hurt that some iconic racers rode them. Being a bad performing bike, I almost think adds to the prestige of them and others that were duds. Ex. Can-am MX-3 back widow. I truly believe Cannondales will be collectable at some point down the road for these very same reasons.

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11/21/2018 2:57 PM

oldsocalmxr wrote:

This is an original well race prepped '84 YZ 250 I bought to race vintage with..... was a low time unit that had been "freshened up" by the previous owner....... I knew what I was looking at and purchased it. $1000.00 later, I had a bike I could race confidently on. During a moment of weakness, I had someone wanting to buy it, I told him $3500.00 including numerous spares that would go with it. He thought I had lost my mind. I kindly suggested he go try and build one for that kind of money. This is a sport we partake of for the love of the sport.....not any kind of monetary gaincool Photo

Although I'm a air-cooled ,twin-shock kind of guy, that is a sexy YZ, socal. Nice job. LOOKS like a race bike should.

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11/21/2018 3:02 PM

PN27416 wrote:

In reference to the HarleyMX250. I think a lot has to do with, it was from an iconic American company. Then add the fact that its a one year low quantity bike. Doesn't hurt that some iconic racers rode them. Being a bad performing bike, I almost think adds to the prestige of them and others that were duds. Ex. Can-am MX-3 back widow. I truly believe Cannondales will be collectable at some point down the road for these very same reasons.

I think you have a valid point there. I know that a clean TM400 Cyclone brings a bigger dollar than the comparable 125 or 250. But usually are bought by guys for show pieces not riders/racers LOL

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11/22/2018 12:26 AM
Edited Date/Time: 11/22/2018 12:27 AM

What about a bike that there is virtually no parts network for ? This was my second bike ever as a kid. Lost track of it from 1971 until '83. A family friend had it that my dad had lent it to. It was like new the last time I rode it in '71. Thrashed when I got it back, but still ran.

Seat, number plates , engine mounts, skid plate, side stand, steering stop , all had to be hand fabbed. Had to order the engine rebuild parts from Germany. It's not perfect, but as close as I could get to the way it was. Don't want to add the receipts up. It does not matter, as it is for me and not for sale. Photo
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This one is not mine. It is just a pic to show an original one, un-restored.
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11/22/2018 3:02 AM
Edited Date/Time: 11/22/2018 3:13 AM

oldsocalmxr wrote:

IMO, there are not that many bikes out there the have an "actual cash value" based on exclusivity or low production numbers. They are worth what someone is willing to pay for them. With few exceptions, if you are doing a museum quality restoration (not the typical garden variety job), don't ever expect to recover your costs, much less profit from this endeavor. Personally, again with some exception, I would not be surprised to see the vintage MX bike market shrink as those coming up behind us have no vested interest in something they have never ridden or owned. If I had an extra 10 grand laying around, I would love to have the Bultaco 350 Pursang I raced back in 1973..... or the CZ 380 I once had. I do have a 1978 CR250 Honda I have spent a stupid amount of money on that I would not part with....it means that much to me, and therein lies the value in these old bikes.....
What is it worth to YOU?

Well said.

Take the time, find one, strip it, touch every part, spend stupid amounts of money and time, then ask the question.

I could rant all day!

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11/27/2018 8:55 PM

I'll give you $500 for that basket case 75 KX250.

....No way, these are worth $5000 restored!

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04 KX125
94 KX250SM
75 Z1-900

11/28/2018 9:36 AM

oldsocalmxr wrote:

This is an original well race prepped '84 YZ 250 I bought to race vintage with..... was a low time unit that had been "freshened up" by the previous owner....... I knew what I was looking at and purchased it. $1000.00 later, I had a bike I could race confidently on. During a moment of weakness, I had someone wanting to buy it, I told him $3500.00 including numerous spares that would go with it. He thought I had lost my mind. I kindly suggested he go try and build one for that kind of money. This is a sport we partake of for the love of the sport.....not any kind of monetary gaincool Photo

Vintage/EVO guys are notoriously cheap bastards. I don't know why they think that tires, chains, pistons, bars, sprockets etc. are still at 1979 prices let alone any value whatsoever in your labor. I have a race ready YZ465 with full Race Tech suspension including the GS3 shock, new rims, tires, chain and sprockets, ProForm pipe and a cleaned and matched top end with V-Force reeds. A class winner at Day in The Dirt a few years back. I didn't go for pretty but the bike is killer. If I tried to get $3500 for it all the vintage/evo tire kickers would faint.

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The older I get, the faster I was.

11/28/2018 10:46 AM

I won a running IT175 in a raffle that had a decent parts bike. $600 dollars later it looked like a good racer. I have a 90 RM125 that I got for $100 bucks. The motor was good other than needing a refreshed top end. $1000 dollars in parts later I should have a nice looking racer. That just parts alone and not counting the labor. You don't get into this for making money. At best the IT175 was a $1200 dollar bike and the RM a $1700 dollar bike to the right person....

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12/3/2018 9:47 AM

I'm certainly no expert on these matters, but I'd concur with many of the points made in this thread, but also add;

How easy is a given bike to restore and how much $$$? If the parts are very hard to come by, or have to be handmade, that could affect the value.
How odd or unique is the bike? For example, If money was no object and one of these became available, I'd pretty much pay whatever is asked for the Honda RC125 twin w/Ribi front end, or the Gilera 125 twin w/rotary valves from the same era.
What is the emotional impact on the buyer or seller? That plays a big role.
How many are on the market and how many serious buyers at a given time?

Just a few thoughts.

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