Posts
1116
Joined
12/9/2009
Location
Mattawa, WA
US
Edited Date/Time
12/20/2017 4:10pm
Personally I really like how they do it in England...its simple.
I feel that in the US we have over complicated and divided up VMX with too many classes and divisions that put too much emphasis on technology that doesn't really matter on the track.
You have a rear disc...you go in 1 class. You have the same year bike with a rear drum, you go in another class. A 1980 125 can't race an 81 because its water-cooled? And that matters in a 4 lap moto?
Everybody will never be happy. But I want to have a discussion on what you guy's think...whats the best way to break up 1980's and early 90's bikes for racing and keep it simple, keep it fair and not have a bajillion classes?
I feel that in the US we have over complicated and divided up VMX with too many classes and divisions that put too much emphasis on technology that doesn't really matter on the track.
You have a rear disc...you go in 1 class. You have the same year bike with a rear drum, you go in another class. A 1980 125 can't race an 81 because its water-cooled? And that matters in a 4 lap moto?
Everybody will never be happy. But I want to have a discussion on what you guy's think...whats the best way to break up 1980's and early 90's bikes for racing and keep it simple, keep it fair and not have a bajillion classes?
I think the REV 1 and 2 break up now is dumb. Too much emphasis on technology. I think it makes more sense to just pick a year...Pre 89 and Post 89 (like the rest of the world). The way it its now an 87 YZ fits in 1 and an 87 CR fits in 2 because of the rear disc. Shouldn't an 87 race against an 87? I would argue that we should group 80s bikes together and 90s bikes together...regardless of which way the fork faces or the brake on the rear wheel. An 84 KTM shouldn't race a 96 CR because of a terrible early version of upside down forks.
The Unlimited class is silly to me. They call it Unlimited but no Water cooling is allowed. Well every Japanese 125 and 250 was water-cooled in 81...so it's just a class for a few models of air cooled/ single shocked Open bikes. Why couldn't these bikes run with the Evo or Revo?
Another thing I would like to see is Evo 125 turned into something like they do at Farleigh Castle (Pre 83 125...again....just pick a year). I have an 82 125, I want to race it with 125's. I've had awesome battles with 79 and 80 125's on it at Washougal. Despite my big radiator...it gets around the track like a 125. It makes the most sense to me to race it in Evo 125. But I usually get DQ'd and I explain that I don't care or want to be scored...I just want to race 125's and not get put into a Revo class and on the track with 250s and 500s.
Sorry for the rant. I just want to hear others opinions. I think the 80s and 90s bikes are the future and I think we could do a better job organizing the classes. I like the idea of modern 2 strokes.
The Shop
I agree less classes but larger classes. We come up with a plan soon. Us old racers are ageing like WW2 Veterans. Soon there won't be old racers on old bikes to race.. We need to just be out there enjoying ourselves.
My biggest gripe with modern MX is all the classes, the 7-71/2 girls oil injection, chain drive purple bike class is cool but I get bored waiting all day to ride 3 laps of practice and one 4 lap moto and have the second moto cut to 3 laps because the the days running long.
I'd be happy with full 40 rider gates and long moto's (I'm a offroad guy at heart so I say bring on 45 min plus two laps races! and stop bulldozing the bumps down!)
I think seeing vintage bikes from different era's going head to head is cool, yea the bikes got better quick back then but lets be honest how many guys riding vintage are maximizing their bikes potential?? The answer is same as modern bikes... a handful of pro's
I've been taking my 84 Husky to dual sport rides this fall and its a hoot to pass guys on their 2017 KTM/Husky/Yamaha... with all fancy parts on it. My point being a rear disc brake or a power valve isn't going to make a difference to the vast majority of riders, Seems like there could be three bike groups (old short travel, early longer travel, 70's early 80's and then mid 80's to 4t era) Believe it that if a Jeff Stanton or Guy Cooper shows up they are gonna dust your doors no matter what mechanical advantage or disadvantage is in the equation!
I do say they are going to have to draw in more "young" riders to vintage... And if your like the majority your gonna want to run what you grew up on (80's bikes in my case at 45 years old). Sadly many of the older guys who race early 70's bikes are getting too old to race or passing on and I just don't see enough new guys coming into refill those classes. Plus the drain on the old bikes and the parts to keep them going has caused the investment to race a true vintage.
Lets hope they make it simple, run some long races on mostly natural, safe tracks... I'll be there in a heartbeat!! Brapp
The whole disc brake, power valve, etc is all nonsense. I've seen guys take an old "floater RM" and show the modern bike/rider how it's done.
After over 30 years of racing and being 38 years old my passion is building/riding 80's and 90s bikes now. I got burned out on Vet Racing on modern bikes.
It seems everyone around the country breaks classes up a little different and I just think there should be some uniformity. Even different races in the same area have variations of how they do their classes. I agree with 3 different machinery groups (and then break up by abilities and displacement...and maybe we only need 2 abilities, not 3 or 4). I'd rather have a 20 rider class than 3 classes with 6 guys...but I guess that doesn't work if everyone wants a trophy.
I was thinking of doing a local VMX race this weekend but saw that there was over 30 classes! I don't want to deal with that...and why would the promotor want the hassle of signing up/scoring/and giving awards to over 30 freaking classes?
Right now in the Northwest we have:
Vintage
Trans Am (this is supposed to be for the 75-77ish) bikes that don't classify as Vintage but feel uncompetitive in Evo)
Evo..is the Twinshock/air cooled YZ Monoshock class. No linkage or dual front brakes
Unlimited...is air-cooled bikes with Linkage...so basically only a few years of CR 480's and a few other models
Rev 1 is Water-cooled with rear drum brakes front disc is ok No USD forks
Rev 2 is Water-cooled with Disc Brakes and USD forks...
I think it's too much.
I do like that they put a cap at 96 to keep out Aluminum Frame bikes and 4 strokes. Some may not like that...but I think there has to be a line drawn somewhere.
Greg
Pit Row
Unless I had a balls out to the finish battle I feel silly collecting a trophy or plaque. or answer the question at work on Monday morning how I did yesterday at my race and with a clear conscious say I got 2nd place when there were 3 riders on my gate.
I believe there are 3 goals to this discussion. 1-To better break up the Revolution Classes (by year and cc). 2-To add classes that enable Revolution riders to sign up for more than one class (Age classes, similar to whats available to Evo riders). 3-To eliminate/absorb some of the current classes with low entries to make space for the new classes.
Regarding #1, Most believe that the previous Revolution (Pre 1989) and Sunset (1990-1996) structure was better than the current Rev1/Rev2 structure that is complicated and based on technology that doesn't matter on the track. It makes sense to group 1980s bikes togehter and 1990s bikes together. Currently a 1987 CR 250 would race Rev2 with a 1996 because of a rear disc. However, a 1987 YZ 250 would race Rev1 because of a rear drum. Shouldn't an '87 race an '87? Then a special exemption is made for a '86 KX (with rear disc) to be allowed in Rev 1? Does a 1985 KTM race Rev 2 because of a terrible-early version of upside down forks? If the bikes competed together back in the day despite different technologies (forks and brakes) they should also line up together today. It seems much easier to pick a year like the rest of the world (think Farleigh Castle) and draw a line (1989). There is also a great amount of interest in a Revolution 125 class. Most feel that it is fine to group 250/500s together but 125's should be seperate. Many current Rev riders have 125's they would like to bring and race (along with their 250 or 500) if the class struture allowed for it.
#2. The growing group of Revolution riders should be able to compete in more than 1 class. Adding a few Rev Age group classes could be a solution. It could be debated or researched, but with Rev being heavy with 30/40 year old riders it would not be necessary to have all the same age divisions that are available to the Evo riders (+40, +50, +60, +70). It could be just 2 groups like Under 40/Over 40 (or 45).
#3 Many of the current classes have very low entries at even the biggest events. Some current technology groups are very similar and could be consolidated. For example the Unlimited Group is supposed to target 1982-1984 bikes yet it restricts water cooling. By 1982 every 125 and 250 was water cooled! Essentially it's a small class with just a few models of bikes (YZ 490/CR 480) that fit.
So what's the solution? Here's mine.
Rev 1 is Pre 1989 with the following classes:
125 Expert and Novice
250/500 Expert and Novice
Rev 2 is 1990-1996 with
125 Expert and Novice
250/500 Expert and Novice
Plus combined Rev1/Rev 2 Age groups
Under 40 Expert and Novice
Over 40 Expert and Novice
This would allow riders to compete in their displacement class and an age class. It would be a total of 12 classes (which could easily be combined in motos so that it would be no more than 4 motos in the race day schedule!
Now...what gets eliminated?
There would immediately be no need for the current...
1 Rev 1 Beg/Nov
2 Rev 1 INT
3 Rev 1 EXP
4 Rev 2 Beg/Nov
5 Rev 2 INT
6 Rev 2 EXP
Unlimited gets dissolved into Rev 1 which would eliminate (looking at Boise 2017 Unlimited had only 3 riders Beg/Nov, 4 INT)
7 Unlimited Beg/Nov
8 Unlimited INT
9 Unlimited EXP
Trans Am gets dissoloved into Evo elimitating (Boise 2017, 1 rider in Trans Am Beg/Nov, only 2 in EXP)
10 Trans Am Beg/Nov (Trans Am could still be a Saturday Class on "Vintage" Day)
11 Trans Am INT
12 Trans am EXP
4 stroke Evo gets eliminated (Boise 2017, 1 Rider in Beg/Nov, 3 INT, 2 EXP. The 4 strokes can compete with 2 strokes like that had to in the past.
13 4 Stroke Evo Beg/Nov
14 4 Stroke Evo INT
15 4 Stroke Evo EXP
I've so far elimited 15 classes that could easily merge with others and created 12 new classes that are open to grow and be the future of VMX.
You could further eliminate 6 more classes by moving Evo to 2 skill classifications. Currently you combine the BEG/NOV. Why not combine INT/EXP? Looking again at Boise Results from this year in 250 EVO there were 10 INT and 4 EXP (Evo Open was similar). These could be combined to create one class of 14. This would allow for less 3 or 4 rider classes and still be a safe grouping on the track.
I have a 92 so I'm excluded from much. Ready to buy 89 graphics & say kiss my azz it's the same technology.
And yea id buy a 89 case w/vin, powdercoat the frame vin cuz its only cheating if you get caught.
I just wanna go out on a track, play, and have fun.
Only race i entered this year (1st one since 31 year layoff from MX. ya I'm 55) was 90's class, A,B,Nov in one gate drop. and there was only like 19 riders. So was a fun start! Small, but fun.
Still only 19. Supporting the theory on condensing.
MX is 90% rider. Isnt part of the fun goin out & mixing it up? Can you work thru the pack? Wheres the pack in 3 riders? Were a dying breed. After my absence, comming back & seeing the state of MX in USA in 2017 it's a dying sport. Makes me cry (not literally). I digress as they say.
Anyway, him or me,lap 5/6, in the heat, are battling, your/my water cooling, drum brake, means NOTHING.
Did you eat rite? Hydrate? How many hrs on your row machine this week?
You got Balls? Disc/Drum ( pik your own technology ) does NOT trump this reality.
Let all of us just go play together & have fun.
Sorry for the rant im tryin to rid the hangover of the pathetic state of the NFL & what is a catch.
Because I wasted 4 days of my life & 3 hrs Sun. on Stillers/Pats only to lose to 10,000 frames a sec. technology.
Hair of the dog baby and where's my MX. And not SX...........MX
Mr Park I nominate you to run VMX. Lets Go Play. Were old, clocks ticking
So is my screaming 125 and my row machine
As a beginning Novice, I would finish at the back of the pack and get a 1st or 2nd place trophy for my class...kinda empty 'accomplishment'.
The more I race these events, I have done 6 races, the more I become convinced its more about rider ability than technology, (other than major suspension changes like 'low travel forks and twin shocks' vs 'long travel forks and shock'.) Even then, it takes a large difference in bikes to compensate for differences in rider ability.
That said, the 10 yr span for a class from 1980 to 1989 seems a bit broad to me...'81 CRs, YZs, and RMs racing against '89 CRs, YZs, and RMs?...It may have unintended consequences of fewer people putting the work into the early '80s bikes.
Breaking it up into classes from '75 to '81 and '82 to '87 and '87 to '96 like you described seems like a more palatable initial step. An unintended consequence may be more '81 CRs, KXs, and RMs showing up. The '81 YZs are pretty common, already.
To help attract new members, we have an Open Support class. You can bring a friend and they can ride whatever they want. But, our organizer always states that he wants a Vintage club and not a Vet/Modern club, so he limits that to one year, then you have to go buy a vintage/post-vintage bike.
Last season, we had 125, 250, and Open classes. This season, it has been consolidated to 125 and Open classes. So, my 250 gets 'scored' against CR480s getting the hole shots.
It would be easy to complain and get frustrated when I get passed by a big bore, but then, when a guy on a 125 passes my 250, I'm reminded that MX races are won in the turns with rider technique, not in the straights with the most hp.
I agree with 81-89 being a broad group...but I don't know the solution. Most guys are building later 80s bikes anyway. It's probably a can of worms, but I'd argue that a 81/82 125 should race with a 79/80. But back to my original post, there's too much emphasis on the technology to break up classes. That's why I like the U.K. Classes I've seen that break it up pre 83 or pre 85.
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