Where I work!

alphado
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3309
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Location
Erie, PA US
Edited Date/Time 7/22/2020 9:01am
We make some cool stuff!

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alphado
Posts
3309
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Location
Erie, PA US
7/16/2020 7:42am
No script, one take. I should be in Hollywood!
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JeremyK
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North Tonawanda, NY US
7/16/2020 8:07am
That's cool! , I'm a NYS journeyman moldmaker, the shop I started my apprenticeship at was doing some work for the scott masks back in the late 90s ,I cant remember who the actual customer was though . You exposed to some really cool ideas working in a mold shop.
1
APLMAN99
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Dallas, TX US
7/16/2020 9:02am
What impact do you guys see metal 3D printing having on making things like thermoformer molds, etc? It sounds like they can be 3D printed at a MUCH lower cost than full machining, but is the quality there yet?

The Shop

JeremyK
Posts
510
Joined
12/19/2019
Location
North Tonawanda, NY US
7/16/2020 9:45am
APLMAN99 wrote:
What impact do you guys see metal 3D printing having on making things like thermoformer molds, etc? It sounds like they can be 3D printed at...
What impact do you guys see metal 3D printing having on making things like thermoformer molds, etc? It sounds like they can be 3D printed at a MUCH lower cost than full machining, but is the quality there yet?
Thermoforms are your gas cans ,kayaks ,boat docks, things of that nature , basically a heated sheet of plastic gets closed over a core and cavity . I've never worked on thermoforms but I would have to imagine the pressure is much less then that of an injection mold , I guess thermoforming would see 3d printed mold details before injection molds . Small shops can still make really good money by building molds the conventional way and running parts in house . I'm sure as the technology gets more popular it will come down in price and increase durability.
ocscottie
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69108
Joined
8/16/2006
Location
Redding, CA US
7/16/2020 10:56am
APLMAN99 wrote:
What impact do you guys see metal 3D printing having on making things like thermoformer molds, etc? It sounds like they can be 3D printed at...
What impact do you guys see metal 3D printing having on making things like thermoformer molds, etc? It sounds like they can be 3D printed at a MUCH lower cost than full machining, but is the quality there yet?
F1 uses 3D printing to make their pistons, instead of using aluminium they are printed out of steel and can be made with tighter tolerances for high compression. That is some high tech stuff! I cant even imagine the cost.
alphado
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Erie, PA US
7/16/2020 11:20am Edited Date/Time 7/16/2020 11:20am
Anything 3-D printed for a mold still need finished machined. There is a place for it. You can get some pretty crazy cooling channels with 3-D printing.
JeremyK
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510
Joined
12/19/2019
Location
North Tonawanda, NY US
7/16/2020 12:46pm
APLMAN99 wrote:
What impact do you guys see metal 3D printing having on making things like thermoformer molds, etc? It sounds like they can be 3D printed at...
What impact do you guys see metal 3D printing having on making things like thermoformer molds, etc? It sounds like they can be 3D printed at a MUCH lower cost than full machining, but is the quality there yet?
ocscottie wrote:
F1 uses 3D printing to make their pistons, instead of using aluminium they are printed out of steel and can be made with tighter tolerances for...
F1 uses 3D printing to make their pistons, instead of using aluminium they are printed out of steel and can be made with tighter tolerances for high compression. That is some high tech stuff! I cant even imagine the cost.
I've seen cross sections of intake and exhaust valves that were printed , the inside was like a honeycomb to make them super light weight
seth505
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SD, CA US
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7/16/2020 1:31pm
We have several metal printers at work, most people don't realize that there is a lot of post processing that goes into most parts that come off it. Definitely opens up new possibilities though.
OG725
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Stanley, NM US
7/16/2020 2:34pm
Man, I did a bunch of the MSA SCBA installs on Navy and Coast Guard ships when they switched from OBAs.

Good stuff.
JeremyK
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510
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Location
North Tonawanda, NY US
7/16/2020 2:38pm
seth505 wrote:
We have several metal printers at work, most people don't realize that there is a lot of post processing that goes into most parts that come...
We have several metal printers at work, most people don't realize that there is a lot of post processing that goes into most parts that come off it. Definitely opens up new possibilities though.
Doesn't your CAD software generate the final post that gets sent to the printer? I don't have experience in printing ,not questioning you in negative way at all. When we machine our graphite electrodes there is some of the larger ones that are hundreds of thousands of line of code but the Mastercam generates the final post.
APLMAN99
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10108
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Location
Dallas, TX US
7/16/2020 3:10pm
APLMAN99 wrote:
What impact do you guys see metal 3D printing having on making things like thermoformer molds, etc? It sounds like they can be 3D printed at...
What impact do you guys see metal 3D printing having on making things like thermoformer molds, etc? It sounds like they can be 3D printed at a MUCH lower cost than full machining, but is the quality there yet?
JeremyK wrote:
Thermoforms are your gas cans ,kayaks ,boat docks, things of that nature , basically a heated sheet of plastic gets closed over a core and cavity...
Thermoforms are your gas cans ,kayaks ,boat docks, things of that nature , basically a heated sheet of plastic gets closed over a core and cavity . I've never worked on thermoforms but I would have to imagine the pressure is much less then that of an injection mold , I guess thermoforming would see 3d printed mold details before injection molds . Small shops can still make really good money by building molds the conventional way and running parts in house . I'm sure as the technology gets more popular it will come down in price and increase durability.
Yeah, I'm thinking of XPS specifically. Right now, it can cost upwards of $80K to get a full mold and cavity package and the wait could be 6+ months.

Here is what I am talking about, but I am not really mechanical enough to understand the tooling too much myself! You guys will probably understand what I have here much better than I do and will correct my terminology.

The top picture is a basic mold pack age, with cooling set, etc. The bottom 2 pictures are the outside and inside of the top of a pear tray cavity. It looks pretty freaking intricate to me, so I am wondering if eventually a 3D printer will be able to replicate it for a fraction of the cost and in far less time. Right now, a simple mistake in tooling can cost months of before a product can actually be made.












1
JeremyK
Posts
510
Joined
12/19/2019
Location
North Tonawanda, NY US
7/16/2020 3:26pm
APLMAN99 wrote:
What impact do you guys see metal 3D printing having on making things like thermoformer molds, etc? It sounds like they can be 3D printed at...
What impact do you guys see metal 3D printing having on making things like thermoformer molds, etc? It sounds like they can be 3D printed at a MUCH lower cost than full machining, but is the quality there yet?
JeremyK wrote:
Thermoforms are your gas cans ,kayaks ,boat docks, things of that nature , basically a heated sheet of plastic gets closed over a core and cavity...
Thermoforms are your gas cans ,kayaks ,boat docks, things of that nature , basically a heated sheet of plastic gets closed over a core and cavity . I've never worked on thermoforms but I would have to imagine the pressure is much less then that of an injection mold , I guess thermoforming would see 3d printed mold details before injection molds . Small shops can still make really good money by building molds the conventional way and running parts in house . I'm sure as the technology gets more popular it will come down in price and increase durability.
APLMAN99 wrote:
Yeah, I'm thinking of XPS specifically. Right now, it can cost upwards of $80K to get a full mold and cavity package and the wait could...
Yeah, I'm thinking of XPS specifically. Right now, it can cost upwards of $80K to get a full mold and cavity package and the wait could be 6+ months.

Here is what I am talking about, but I am not really mechanical enough to understand the tooling too much myself! You guys will probably understand what I have here much better than I do and will correct my terminology.

The top picture is a basic mold pack age, with cooling set, etc. The bottom 2 pictures are the outside and inside of the top of a pear tray cavity. It looks pretty freaking intricate to me, so I am wondering if eventually a 3D printer will be able to replicate it for a fraction of the cost and in far less time. Right now, a simple mistake in tooling can cost months of before a product can actually be made.












Ive built a triple digit number of molds in my life and i cant for the life of me figure out the need for that many holes , is that an injection mold ?
APLMAN99
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10108
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Location
Dallas, TX US
7/16/2020 3:38pm
JeremyK wrote:
Ive built a triple digit number of molds in my life and i cant for the life of me figure out the need for that many...
Ive built a triple digit number of molds in my life and i cant for the life of me figure out the need for that many holes , is that an injection mold ?
No, it's a thermoform mold for extruded polystyrene. It's egg carton polystyrene, not the expanded stuff like Styrofoam coolers and cups.

If you look REALLY closely at the "inside" picture you will see small pinholes all over it. The holes (and the channels) are to force air through to release the polystyrene after it is formed. Each cycle is about 2 seconds long and the mold set is 6up cavities, so each 2 seconds it makes 6 trays. It has to cool just perfectly during those 2 seconds to form and then the air has to eject it without the sheet being too hot or else it will blow holes into the tray.

I guess that you sort of answered my question as to why these things are so expensive!!!!

So between apple and pears, there are currently 48 different types/sizes that need to be made. Fortunately the molds are somewhat shared, so there are really only 5 mold bases to go with the 48 different cavity types but it's still a lot of money I think and it would seem like an awful lot of it could be done with a 3D printer then "cleaned up" by a qualified machinist.

seth505
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Location
SD, CA US
Fantasy
1271st
7/16/2020 3:42pm
seth505 wrote:
We have several metal printers at work, most people don't realize that there is a lot of post processing that goes into most parts that come...
We have several metal printers at work, most people don't realize that there is a lot of post processing that goes into most parts that come off it. Definitely opens up new possibilities though.
JeremyK wrote:
Doesn't your CAD software generate the final post that gets sent to the printer? I don't have experience in printing ,not questioning you in negative way...
Doesn't your CAD software generate the final post that gets sent to the printer? I don't have experience in printing ,not questioning you in negative way at all. When we machine our graphite electrodes there is some of the larger ones that are hundreds of thousands of line of code but the Mastercam generates the final post.
The CAD model gets exported as a .STL, put into Software that modifies stl/slicer/generates supports then pushed to metal printer software that has material and laser parameters it applies to the build.
1
APLMAN99
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10108
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Dallas, TX US
7/16/2020 4:03pm
alphado wrote:
We make some cool stuff!
We make some cool stuff!

That is awesome that you get to use your own product that way!

On a side note, how are you going to fit behind the wheel of a new C8?

Cool
GTM
Posts
92
Joined
12/1/2014
Location
Amherstburg Ontario CA
7/17/2020 10:35am
alphado wrote:
We make some cool stuff!
We make some cool stuff!

APLMAN99 wrote:
That is awesome that you get to use your own product that way! On a side note, how are you going to fit behind the wheel...
That is awesome that you get to use your own product that way!

On a side note, how are you going to fit behind the wheel of a new C8?

Cool
Great work APLMAN99.... here is a tool i just finished... running in a 1500 Ton press...
2 Cavity tool, running multi versions, by means of interchangeable inserts.
APLMAN99
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10108
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Dallas, TX US
7/17/2020 10:48am
GTM wrote:
Great work APLMAN99.... here is a tool i just finished... running in a 1500 Ton press... 2 Cavity tool, running multi versions, by means of interchangeable...
Great work APLMAN99.... here is a tool i just finished... running in a 1500 Ton press...
2 Cavity tool, running multi versions, by means of interchangeable inserts.
Oh, I didn’t do any of the work on those! I’m completely non-mechanical Inclined myself.

I’ve had to order a bunch of those, though, and they are some pretty big checks to write!

I’m currently trying to find a better way to do some of the mold changes, our 40+ yr old small Toyota lift is at the end of its lifespan and was grey market to begin with. They don’t make them as small as that one anymore that has at least a 3K lifting capacity so it’s time to research die change carts that fit into an unorthodox space.
GTM
Posts
92
Joined
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Location
Amherstburg Ontario CA
7/17/2020 10:53am
APLMAN99 wrote:
What impact do you guys see metal 3D printing having on making things like thermoformer molds, etc? It sounds like they can be 3D printed at...
What impact do you guys see metal 3D printing having on making things like thermoformer molds, etc? It sounds like they can be 3D printed at a MUCH lower cost than full machining, but is the quality there yet?
JeremyK wrote:
Thermoforms are your gas cans ,kayaks ,boat docks, things of that nature , basically a heated sheet of plastic gets closed over a core and cavity...
Thermoforms are your gas cans ,kayaks ,boat docks, things of that nature , basically a heated sheet of plastic gets closed over a core and cavity . I've never worked on thermoforms but I would have to imagine the pressure is much less then that of an injection mold , I guess thermoforming would see 3d printed mold details before injection molds . Small shops can still make really good money by building molds the conventional way and running parts in house . I'm sure as the technology gets more popular it will come down in price and increase durability.
Your 100% correct, much less molding pressures.... light tonnage basically to form and cool.
We currently build allot of compression and vac form tooling, which runs in a much smaller press
than a standard injection mold for obvious reasons...
SEEMEFIRST
Posts
10992
Joined
8/21/2006
Location
Arlington, TX US
7/22/2020 9:01am
APLMAN99 wrote:
What impact do you guys see metal 3D printing having on making things like thermoformer molds, etc? It sounds like they can be 3D printed at...
What impact do you guys see metal 3D printing having on making things like thermoformer molds, etc? It sounds like they can be 3D printed at a MUCH lower cost than full machining, but is the quality there yet?
The thing with injection molding compared to 3-D printing is speed.

While you will have some big costs in tooling, depending on how many parts you're making, you can get tooling costs back quickly.

The part Alph showed for instance. That might take several hours to print, and in that time you could have hundreds of them injecting.
APLMAN99
Posts
10108
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Location
Dallas, TX US
7/22/2020 9:29am
APLMAN99 wrote:
What impact do you guys see metal 3D printing having on making things like thermoformer molds, etc? It sounds like they can be 3D printed at...
What impact do you guys see metal 3D printing having on making things like thermoformer molds, etc? It sounds like they can be 3D printed at a MUCH lower cost than full machining, but is the quality there yet?
SEEMEFIRST wrote:
The thing with injection molding compared to 3-D printing is speed. While you will have some big costs in tooling, depending on how many parts you're...
The thing with injection molding compared to 3-D printing is speed.

While you will have some big costs in tooling, depending on how many parts you're making, you can get tooling costs back quickly.

The part Alph showed for instance. That might take several hours to print, and in that time you could have hundreds of them injecting.
I wouldn’t be injection molding the part I showed, I’m talking about making the tooling itself.
SEEMEFIRST
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10992
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Location
Arlington, TX US
7/22/2020 10:36am
APLMAN99 wrote:
I wouldn’t be injection molding the part I showed, I’m talking about making the tooling itself.
Right. I thought the part you showed was an injection mold tool.
JM485
Posts
5409
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10/1/2013
Location
Davis, CA US
7/22/2020 1:50pm
Anything 3d printed is definitely going to need some post process if surface finish is a concern (and it usually is). The other thing to consider is for a highly stressed part, like the pistons Scotty was referencing , each layer line can create a hell of a stress raiser, and generally the weakest plane of any print is right along the layer bond line so they would need to be machined out.

Now, the advantage is what JeremyK mentioned above, the inside can have whatever % infill you desire and the walls can have any thickness. Most parts are the most highly stressed on their outer surface, so if we removed some material from the core it really wouldn’t effect strength all that much, however with conventional machining this just isn’t possible. If you’ve got the time and resources (ie F1 and other specialty applications), you can make some seriously bad ass stuff after post processing.

I’m anxiously awaiting the day when metal printing becomes viable for home use, I don’t think we’re more than 5-10 years away. The thought of expanding 3DP into metal parts gets me excited in weird places Laughing



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