This is the loving God, eh?

TriRacer27
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6/4/2012 3:20pm
burn1986 wrote:
Cmon, the point is that jtomasik is mad at the Christian God. But he's mainly mad at the Christians (or those calling themselves that). It's just...
Cmon, the point is that jtomasik is mad at the Christian God. But he's mainly mad at the Christians (or those calling themselves that). It's just funny how this is the only religion any one ever blames. It always Jesus and Christians. Jesus and Christians are always the target. It's never Buddha, Krishna, Mohammad that are talked about backwards on records. It's funny how none of them claimed to be God. None of them split time in half. None of them claimed to rise from the dead. None of them have claimed forgiveness of sins. None of them mention God punishing for sin, but they say the disciple must do the punishing. I have worked at a State Mental Insitution and the delusional patients either claimed they were God, Jesus, or the devil. It was never Buddha, Krishna, Mohammad, or Allah. These people were out of their minds, yet they only named these three.

Well, you know what, I get mad at God too sometimes, but what good does it do me. It only builds bitterness in my heart, and accomplishes nothing. I try not put all my trust in other people (Christians or not), since they will let me down. But Jesus taught in the Bible to put your trust in Him and his way and it would change you. Why are you so caught up on following people? We are all weak at resisting tempation, being judgemental, and everything else. Seek Jesus and His ways out on your own.

And duh, everyone knows that the Muslims believe that Ishmael (from Abraham's hand maid, Hagar) was the chosen one, instead of Isaac. Once again, a spin off from the Bible. Nothing new. God did say that he would be at war with everyone (Gen. 16 & 17). And you can see today that Muslims are literally at war with everyone.
Rooster wrote:
I'm not mad at anybody. I'm just pointing out that Christians, Muslims and Jews all worship the same god. Since I'm not religious in any way...
I'm not mad at anybody. I'm just pointing out that Christians, Muslims and Jews all worship the same god.

Since I'm not religious in any way shape or form, it's up to you guys to argue over the silly little differences your religions have created to differentiate yourselves.

Just don't go saying that Muslims are worshiping a different god because it shows a lack of understanding about the basis your religion is founded on.

If you want examples of prophets or earthly gods that claimed the same powers as Jesus, then how many examples would you like? Because I can provide literally hundreds of them that pre-date Christianity by centuries. Frankly claiming to be a god is one of the reasons why I think that Christianity is one of the nuttier religions. That and the whole end of the world prophecy. At least in Islam their prophet never claimed to be divine, and the Jews think you're as nuts as I do for worshiping a man who claimed the powers of a God.
All of those religions differ on one critical point - was Jesus the son of God or just a prophet? Muslims and Jews both believe he was simply a prophet, Christians believe he is God. How is that worshiping the same god?

The other big difference is that the Christian God is still alive, and just like you claim to have "hundreds" of examples of false prophets (there are far more than that I'm sure), there are just as many verifiable historical documents validating the veracity of the Bible and the resurrection of Jesus.

So no, I'm not saying Jesus was or is God, all I'm saying is that everything the Bible said would happen did happen (according to historical evidence) and he's the only guy ever recorded in history to die for 3 days and come back to life. If you know of anyone else that has done that and I've missed, let me know. If you can disprove his resurrection, let me know. In any case I'll immediately renounce all religion.

Easy enough?
6/4/2012 3:22pm
The only reason why us humans are as significant as we think we are, is because we are lucky enough to have drawn the combination of thumbs and a vocal box. There is good reason to believe that all of our success as a species can be traced back to those two physical traits.

And as a result, we have a very over inflated and egotistical perception of ourselves in the animal planet and universe as a whole. We're not that special.
TriRacer27
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6/4/2012 3:48pm
The only reason why us humans are as significant as we think we are, is because we are lucky enough to have drawn the combination of...
The only reason why us humans are as significant as we think we are, is because we are lucky enough to have drawn the combination of thumbs and a vocal box. There is good reason to believe that all of our success as a species can be traced back to those two physical traits.

And as a result, we have a very over inflated and egotistical perception of ourselves in the animal planet and universe as a whole. We're not that special.
Then murder, cannibalism, and incest should be a-ok right? These are common traits in nature and if we aren't that special, we do we hold ourselves to these restrictions?
mx 219
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6/4/2012 4:22pm
burn1986 wrote:
Cmon, the point is that jtomasik is mad at the Christian God. But he's mainly mad at the Christians (or those calling themselves that). It's just...
Cmon, the point is that jtomasik is mad at the Christian God. But he's mainly mad at the Christians (or those calling themselves that). It's just funny how this is the only religion any one ever blames. It always Jesus and Christians. Jesus and Christians are always the target. It's never Buddha, Krishna, Mohammad that are talked about backwards on records. It's funny how none of them claimed to be God. None of them split time in half. None of them claimed to rise from the dead. None of them have claimed forgiveness of sins. None of them mention God punishing for sin, but they say the disciple must do the punishing. I have worked at a State Mental Insitution and the delusional patients either claimed they were God, Jesus, or the devil. It was never Buddha, Krishna, Mohammad, or Allah. These people were out of their minds, yet they only named these three.

Well, you know what, I get mad at God too sometimes, but what good does it do me. It only builds bitterness in my heart, and accomplishes nothing. I try not put all my trust in other people (Christians or not), since they will let me down. But Jesus taught in the Bible to put your trust in Him and his way and it would change you. Why are you so caught up on following people? We are all weak at resisting tempation, being judgemental, and everything else. Seek Jesus and His ways out on your own.

And duh, everyone knows that the Muslims believe that Ishmael (from Abraham's hand maid, Hagar) was the chosen one, instead of Isaac. Once again, a spin off from the Bible. Nothing new. God did say that he would be at war with everyone (Gen. 16 & 17). And you can see today that Muslims are literally at war with everyone.
Rooster wrote:
I'm not mad at anybody. I'm just pointing out that Christians, Muslims and Jews all worship the same god. Since I'm not religious in any way...
I'm not mad at anybody. I'm just pointing out that Christians, Muslims and Jews all worship the same god.

Since I'm not religious in any way shape or form, it's up to you guys to argue over the silly little differences your religions have created to differentiate yourselves.

Just don't go saying that Muslims are worshiping a different god because it shows a lack of understanding about the basis your religion is founded on.

If you want examples of prophets or earthly gods that claimed the same powers as Jesus, then how many examples would you like? Because I can provide literally hundreds of them that pre-date Christianity by centuries. Frankly claiming to be a god is one of the reasons why I think that Christianity is one of the nuttier religions. That and the whole end of the world prophecy. At least in Islam their prophet never claimed to be divine, and the Jews think you're as nuts as I do for worshiping a man who claimed the powers of a God.
Christians do not believe in the same god as Muslims...they believe in Allah, or God, but they do not believe that Jesus was God's son. So we sort of believe in the same God, however because they do not believe that Jesus was God's son I do not believe ANY Muslims will be heaven, that is unless they changed what they believe. The bible says multiple times that unless you believe in the Son, which is also the father that you do not know Him (along those lines).

The Shop

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6/4/2012 4:28pm
TriRacer27 wrote:
All of those religions differ on one critical point - was Jesus the son of God or just a prophet? Muslims and Jews both believe he...
All of those religions differ on one critical point - was Jesus the son of God or just a prophet? Muslims and Jews both believe he was simply a prophet, Christians believe he is God. How is that worshiping the same god?

The other big difference is that the Christian God is still alive, and just like you claim to have "hundreds" of examples of false prophets (there are far more than that I'm sure), there are just as many verifiable historical documents validating the veracity of the Bible and the resurrection of Jesus.

So no, I'm not saying Jesus was or is God, all I'm saying is that everything the Bible said would happen did happen (according to historical evidence) and he's the only guy ever recorded in history to die for 3 days and come back to life. If you know of anyone else that has done that and I've missed, let me know. If you can disprove his resurrection, let me know. In any case I'll immediately renounce all religion.

Easy enough?
Who's more powerful in heaven, Jesus or his father? Jesus is (according to your bible) the son of god and god is all powerful.

As for the ability to raise from the dead it's not even that uncommon in your bible so why do you discount the so-called false prophets as being any less valid than Jesus? Apparently it happens all the time.

The Bible records a number of instances where people were raised to life.

1. Elijah raised to life the son of the widow who helped feed him during the famine.
2. The prophet Elisha raised the son of the Shunamite woman who had died.
3. Jesus raised the son of the widow at Nain.
4. Jesus raised Lazarus after his being dead for over three days.
5. Jesus raised Jairus' daughter.
6. Peter raised Dorcas from the dead.
7. Paul brought Eutychus back to life.

Then of course there's myself. I too have been raised from the dead in the operating room. Three times in fact. Care to send me a tithe for my forgiveness? I'm only asking for 9.25% or your earnings once a week. I figure that's a pretty good deal. Canadian funds though, I too don't like the money changers, but I'm not the type to forgive them so easily. If I'm not the type of deity that floats your boat then I can track down the trauma surgeon and you can send your tithe to him.
6/4/2012 4:35pm Edited Date/Time 6/4/2012 4:54pm
The only reason why us humans are as significant as we think we are, is because we are lucky enough to have drawn the combination of...
The only reason why us humans are as significant as we think we are, is because we are lucky enough to have drawn the combination of thumbs and a vocal box. There is good reason to believe that all of our success as a species can be traced back to those two physical traits.

And as a result, we have a very over inflated and egotistical perception of ourselves in the animal planet and universe as a whole. We're not that special.
TriRacer27 wrote:
Then murder, cannibalism, and incest should be a-ok right? These are common traits in nature and if we aren't that special, we do we hold ourselves...
Then murder, cannibalism, and incest should be a-ok right? These are common traits in nature and if we aren't that special, we do we hold ourselves to these restrictions?
You are indeed a clairvoyant one. I didnt expect most people to get what I was saying there and how it relates to this thread. Bravo. Why is it that some of the most intelligent people Ive ever debated with, are hardcore-religious. It's so weird to me considering you guys believe in what amounts to a puppeteer in the sky running the show. Anyway.....



Murder - Im assuming by "murder" you mean senseless killings? Well if senseless killings is your definition of murder, then you just described every holy war in history. But that is a cheap argument on my part and you deserve better. Honestly, its not about right or wrong. I may get all worked up about our countries politics and the people that suffer at the hands of our seemingly corporately driven diplomatic policies, but in reality, its just the absurdity of it all that I find alarming. I let go a long time ago, none of this stuff really bothers me. Life is really cheap. Im not afraid to die. I havent been for a very long time. When you truly let go and realize this is all just one big ride, then you start enjoying it. Life...Death....Ying....Yang.....its all the same in the end. We're all gonna die one day. It's time we get over it and stop pretending it isnt going to happen. In the end, it doesnt matter when or how it goes down.

Incest - We are one of the few cultures in the world that looks down upon this practice. Far more cultures in the world dont care about it than we do. And if you look at the biological effects of incest, all it does is amplify genes. Good and bad. Thats all.

Cannibalism - Take one look at the world news and ask yourself is this not what we are doing? People keep thinking that we are destroying the planet. That couldnt be further fromt he truth. The planet was fine before humans, and it will be fine when we are gone. The only thing getting fucked up is our living situation. Largely in part due to the fact that we cant stop fucking each other over.

Oh, and we have no problem feeding other animals to themselves so its not like were against cannibalism. Mad Cow disease never would have happened if we didnt feed cows to themselves.


So to answer you question, you may think we currently hold ourselves to these restrictions, but we dont. We like to think we do, but the evidence that is the real world, doesnt show it.
TriRacer27
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6/4/2012 4:48pm Edited Date/Time 6/4/2012 5:08pm
You are indeed a clairvoyant one. I didnt expect most people to get what I was saying there and how it relates to this thread. Bravo...
You are indeed a clairvoyant one. I didnt expect most people to get what I was saying there and how it relates to this thread. Bravo. Why is it that some of the most intelligent people Ive ever debated with, are hardcore-religious. It's so weird to me considering you guys believe in what amounts to a puppeteer in the sky running the show. Anyway.....



Murder - Im assuming by "murder" you mean senseless killings? Well if senseless killings is your definition of murder, then you just described every holy war in history. But that is a cheap argument on my part and you deserve better. Honestly, its not about right or wrong. I may get all worked up about our countries politics and the people that suffer at the hands of our seemingly corporately driven diplomatic policies, but in reality, its just the absurdity of it all that I find alarming. I let go a long time ago, none of this stuff really bothers me. Life is really cheap. Im not afraid to die. I havent been for a very long time. When you truly let go and realize this is all just one big ride, then you start enjoying it. Life...Death....Ying....Yang.....its all the same in the end. We're all gonna die one day. It's time we get over it and stop pretending it isnt going to happen. In the end, it doesnt matter when or how it goes down.

Incest - We are one of the few cultures in the world that looks down upon this practice. Far more cultures in the world dont care about it than we do. And if you look at the biological effects of incest, all it does is amplify genes. Good and bad. Thats all.

Cannibalism - Take one look at the world news and ask yourself is this not what we are doing? People keep thinking that we are destroying the planet. That couldnt be further fromt he truth. The planet was fine before humans, and it will be fine when we are gone. The only thing getting fucked up is our living situation. Largely in part due to the fact that we cant stop fucking each other over.

Oh, and we have no problem feeding other animals to themselves so its not like were against cannibalism. Mad Cow disease never would have happened if we didnt feed cows to themselves.


So to answer you question, you may think we currently hold ourselves to these restrictions, but we dont. We like to think we do, but the evidence that is the real world, doesnt show it.
Funny, most people consider our culture more evolved or progressed because of these restrictions. You disagree?

BTW, I know those things are commonly practiced in other cultures that's why I asked. Fetus soup is fairly accepted in China, rape is promoted in certain parts of Africa, and well, murder is just common worldwide though I don't think there's any place where it's legal.

You know, it really brings into question some of our laws. Like, why does a girl have to be 18? Why can't a consenting adult have sex with a consenting child, or at the very least be able to see pictures of naked kids if he pleases so long as no harm was done to the child? It's not like there's anything special about sex anyway, it's just natural reproduction, right? And even if we considered it wrong, who are we to tell some other culture that it's wrong if that's what they decide as a whole?

See, once you open the door, the rabbit hole goes pretty far down, and most atheists are not willing to probe the depths of the implication of their belief that far.


Oh and about all the holy wars and all that which most people get hung up on as an example of murder, here's some figures for you:

In the history of the world it is estimated that about 315 million people have died from wars, 49 million being soldiers, give or take a couple million.
At the current abortion rate (42 million/yr), it only takes 8 years of worldwide abortions to surpass the total number of deaths due to war in the history of the world.

If we are all animals, there's no difference between killing a fetus or a full grown human being. So yeah, religious wars have killed a few million people, but it's nothing compared to the mass killings going on today.
6/4/2012 4:57pm Edited Date/Time 6/4/2012 5:14pm
TriRacer27 wrote:
Funny, most people consider our culture more evolved or progressed because of these restrictions. You disagree? BTW, I know those things are commonly practiced in other...
Funny, most people consider our culture more evolved or progressed because of these restrictions. You disagree?

BTW, I know those things are commonly practiced in other cultures that's why I asked. Fetus soup is fairly accepted in China, rape is promoted in certain parts of Africa, and well, murder is just common worldwide though I don't think there's any place where it's legal.

You know, it really brings into question some of our laws. Like, why does a girl have to be 18? Why can't a consenting adult have sex with a consenting child, or at the very least be able to see pictures of naked kids if he pleases so long as no harm was done to the child? It's not like there's anything special about sex anyway, it's just natural reproduction, right? And even if we considered it wrong, who are we to tell some other culture that it's wrong if that's what they decide as a whole?

See, once you open the door, the rabbit hole goes pretty far down, and most atheists are not willing to probe the depths of the implication of their belief that far.


Oh and about all the holy wars and all that which most people get hung up on as an example of murder, here's some figures for you:

In the history of the world it is estimated that about 315 million people have died from wars, 49 million being soldiers, give or take a couple million.
At the current abortion rate (42 million/yr), it only takes 8 years of worldwide abortions to surpass the total number of deaths due to war in the history of the world.

If we are all animals, there's no difference between killing a fetus or a full grown human being. So yeah, religious wars have killed a few million people, but it's nothing compared to the mass killings going on today.
Most parents think their kids are saints. That doesnt make it true. Anyone who has dated a girl who went to Catholic school knows that first hand.

Joking aside, what are you asking me, if I think these restrictions make us more civilized? or if I agree in your assessment that most people think we are more civilized due to these phantom restrictions we like to think we follow?

If it is the former, then here are my answers:

Having a restriction on murder does not make us more civilized. If you are more worried about the repercussions of murder than you are of the actual act you are committing, you are far from civilized. It's like all the jackasses in this country that are more worried about getting a ticket for not wearing their seatbelt than they are about going thru the windshield. A seatbelt law should not be necessary.

Does restricting incest make us more civilized? I dont really see why. We're a country that still cant let two guys who arent brothers go be un-happily married. We need to get past the small hurdles before we can ever start worrying about the tougher stuff to decipher.

Do we really need a law against cannibalism? I mean really? If you need to be told its bad to not do it, are you really civilized? On a side note, a Japanese chef recently had his genitalia surgically removed so he could serve them as an expensive one-off dish. It didnt fetch as much money as he thought it would. But my point is, apparently Japan is down with cannibalism and I dont think you will find anyone to say they are any less civilized than us.


I'll consider us more evolved or civilized when we start practicing what we preach. And more importantly, when we start preaching something intelligent. Our collective IQ's as a society is nothing to be proud of and not worthy of being called "progressed".
jtomasik
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6/4/2012 7:54pm Edited Date/Time 6/4/2012 7:55pm
TriRacer27 wrote:
How do you expect to have an "OPEN discussion" if you can't even read through my entire response? I know Copernicus first introduced heliocentric theory, that...
How do you expect to have an "OPEN discussion" if you can't even read through my entire response?

I know Copernicus first introduced heliocentric theory, that wasn't my point. Copernicus offered no empirical evidence for his theory, and actually conflicted with the empirical evidence of the time regarding stellar parallax. What Kepler did was far more than figure out elliptical orbits, he used empirical evidence rather than observation and intuition to support his theory. That was the real beginning of the scientific method.

The ILP was issued because Pope Urban VIII thought Galileo was making fun of him in his work (can't remember the title of Galileo's work that got him in trouble. But it was aimed at Galileo, not Kepler. His reasoning was to protect his people from teachings such as Aristotle's that went against what the Bible taught. You can judge for yourself on whether or not that was the proper action, but true scientific method was born out of Christian thinkers reacting to the works of Aristotle, Averroes, Avicenna, and others. They did not wish to be "protected" from these and took it upon themselves to prove them wrong. The list of prominently Christian scientists who lived during the era of Scientific Revolution far outweighs that of atheist thinkers.

The point is still, though, that these scientific breakthroughs occurred during a period that was predominantly Christian, which goes against what you were saying about the greatest advancements occurring when the church was least involved.

All of those men (Kepler, Newton, Boyle, Mendel, etc) were Christians. So how is it that their faith hindered scientific progress?


BTW, I'm always the one trying to have an open discussion. You're the one who starts throwing jabs about me, failing to actually address my questions, and making it into a personal attack. I'm always open to discussions about this because I've heard all of the arguments against Christianity and have yet to hear a convincing one.
Their faith didn't...religion did. The church did. That's why it was called "The Dark Ages". That was my point. You, obviously, missed it completely. Science and advancement of humanity was limited by ignorant religious crap. That's how Christianity contributed.

You know that the Library of Alexandria was documented proof of the Greeks well on their way in scientific methods to explain the nature around us, right? And, it was the Muslims who first used the scientific method.

You cite a few intellectuals and somehow credit Christianity and faith. Reality is, Christianity stifled scientific progress for 1500 years, and it wasn't until the 1800's that humanity started to recovery.


Oh, btw, when you say shit like this:

"Once again, I have no idea where you get your information because of how misinformed you seem to be...."

"...#2: You have no idea what you're talking about here, just stay out of it. ..."

It's condescending, especially when you weren't even a part of the conversation. So, now that you have your panties in a bunch and you're acting like the victim, I'll finish it: you have an undereducated religious bias of ignorant ideas and a shitty ability to have an educated dialogue.


Enjoy, pal.
TriRacer27
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6/4/2012 8:36pm
jtomasik wrote:
Their faith didn't...religion did. The church did. That's why it was called "The Dark Ages". That was my point. You, obviously, missed it completely. Science and...
Their faith didn't...religion did. The church did. That's why it was called "The Dark Ages". That was my point. You, obviously, missed it completely. Science and advancement of humanity was limited by ignorant religious crap. That's how Christianity contributed.

You know that the Library of Alexandria was documented proof of the Greeks well on their way in scientific methods to explain the nature around us, right? And, it was the Muslims who first used the scientific method.

You cite a few intellectuals and somehow credit Christianity and faith. Reality is, Christianity stifled scientific progress for 1500 years, and it wasn't until the 1800's that humanity started to recovery.


Oh, btw, when you say shit like this:

"Once again, I have no idea where you get your information because of how misinformed you seem to be...."

"...#2: You have no idea what you're talking about here, just stay out of it. ..."

It's condescending, especially when you weren't even a part of the conversation. So, now that you have your panties in a bunch and you're acting like the victim, I'll finish it: you have an undereducated religious bias of ignorant ideas and a shitty ability to have an educated dialogue.


Enjoy, pal.
I was staying out of it until you started blatantly attacking God. I don't care what you say about me or others, but when you insult God then I have to say something. I don't have my panties in a wad, as you say, I'm just calling you out when you use incorrect information to try to convince others about your views against religion.

So I'm sorry if you got offended by me saying that you are misinformed. How can you say that I am the one who is bias when you make statements like "Christianity stifled scientific progress for 1500 years", when you won't find a single historian who would agree with that broad of a generalization? That's not even directionally correct, much less accurate.

How can you say I'm biased when you're the one starting a thread and making a broad generalization about an entire worldwide religion based on the ranting of one single person?
TriRacer27
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6/4/2012 8:41pm
Rooster wrote:
Who's more powerful in heaven, Jesus or his father? Jesus is (according to your bible) the son of god and god is all powerful. As for...
Who's more powerful in heaven, Jesus or his father? Jesus is (according to your bible) the son of god and god is all powerful.

As for the ability to raise from the dead it's not even that uncommon in your bible so why do you discount the so-called false prophets as being any less valid than Jesus? Apparently it happens all the time.

The Bible records a number of instances where people were raised to life.

1. Elijah raised to life the son of the widow who helped feed him during the famine.
2. The prophet Elisha raised the son of the Shunamite woman who had died.
3. Jesus raised the son of the widow at Nain.
4. Jesus raised Lazarus after his being dead for over three days.
5. Jesus raised Jairus' daughter.
6. Peter raised Dorcas from the dead.
7. Paul brought Eutychus back to life.

Then of course there's myself. I too have been raised from the dead in the operating room. Three times in fact. Care to send me a tithe for my forgiveness? I'm only asking for 9.25% or your earnings once a week. I figure that's a pretty good deal. Canadian funds though, I too don't like the money changers, but I'm not the type to forgive them so easily. If I'm not the type of deity that floats your boat then I can track down the trauma surgeon and you can send your tithe to him.
You are right, I should have been more specific:

Who was the last person to raise himself out of the grave? In all of those instances it was the power of God working through someone else. Except you of course, but you didn't resurrect yourself so nice try ;-) (what the heck happened by the way, was it 3 times in the same instance or 3 separate times? heart attack I take it?).
TriRacer27
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6/4/2012 8:55pm
Most parents think their kids are saints. That doesnt make it true. Anyone who has dated a girl who went to Catholic school knows that first...
Most parents think their kids are saints. That doesnt make it true. Anyone who has dated a girl who went to Catholic school knows that first hand.

Joking aside, what are you asking me, if I think these restrictions make us more civilized? or if I agree in your assessment that most people think we are more civilized due to these phantom restrictions we like to think we follow?

If it is the former, then here are my answers:

Having a restriction on murder does not make us more civilized. If you are more worried about the repercussions of murder than you are of the actual act you are committing, you are far from civilized. It's like all the jackasses in this country that are more worried about getting a ticket for not wearing their seatbelt than they are about going thru the windshield. A seatbelt law should not be necessary.

Does restricting incest make us more civilized? I dont really see why. We're a country that still cant let two guys who arent brothers go be un-happily married. We need to get past the small hurdles before we can ever start worrying about the tougher stuff to decipher.

Do we really need a law against cannibalism? I mean really? If you need to be told its bad to not do it, are you really civilized? On a side note, a Japanese chef recently had his genitalia surgically removed so he could serve them as an expensive one-off dish. It didnt fetch as much money as he thought it would. But my point is, apparently Japan is down with cannibalism and I dont think you will find anyone to say they are any less civilized than us.


I'll consider us more evolved or civilized when we start practicing what we preach. And more importantly, when we start preaching something intelligent. Our collective IQ's as a society is nothing to be proud of and not worthy of being called "progressed".
Man I'm really enjoying your answers, hope you don't take offense at me picking them apart.

Murder I agree, not committing murder simply because of the penalty of law is not civilized, but that doesn't really answer the question. The question was: is a culture more civilized when it recognizes that murder is wrong and thus enacts some measure in an effort to prevent it? It's the recognition that murder is wrong, not the execution of a prevention plan. Or is a civilization more advanced when they embrace their instincts and let people sort things out on their own?

Seems to me that you agree that murder is innately wrong (I'm assuming you draw a parallel between being more civilized and doing the "right" thing). If so, why?

Incest This one is tricky and once again you didn't really answer my question, you simply brought up a more immediate issue, so I'll go with that. If it's ok for a man to marry another man, what about those people who claim to develop deep loving relationships with their pets and wish to marry them? There was a case not too long ago about a guy who was having sex with a dolphin - is that any different and if so why?

Cannibalism This one I just didn't understand. It sounds like (in your first statement) that you believe there is something wrong with cannibalism and think it's so obvious that you shouldn't even need to be told that its wrong, but then you go on to say that Japan is cool with it and you have no problem with them doing it. Soooo, do you think cannibalism is ok or is there something wrong with it?

And lastly, I agree entirely with your statement that we should start practicing what we preach but that's the issue, isn't it? What exactly to preach? How do you get to an intelligent set of rules that everyone can agree upon (and presumably for the greater good) that are not based on any moral standing?
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6/4/2012 10:12pm
TriRacer27 wrote:
You are right, I should have been more specific: Who was the last person to raise himself out of the grave? In all of those instances...
You are right, I should have been more specific:

Who was the last person to raise himself out of the grave? In all of those instances it was the power of God working through someone else. Except you of course, but you didn't resurrect yourself so nice try ;-) (what the heck happened by the way, was it 3 times in the same instance or 3 separate times? heart attack I take it?).
Massive internal bleeding and major internal injuries. Motocross related. Three times during the same instance.

If you're not sending me any money, I'm not talking any more religion.
6/5/2012 2:56am
TriRacer27 wrote:
Man I'm really enjoying your answers, hope you don't take offense at me picking them apart. [b]Murder[/b] I agree, not committing murder simply because of the...
Man I'm really enjoying your answers, hope you don't take offense at me picking them apart.

Murder I agree, not committing murder simply because of the penalty of law is not civilized, but that doesn't really answer the question. The question was: is a culture more civilized when it recognizes that murder is wrong and thus enacts some measure in an effort to prevent it? It's the recognition that murder is wrong, not the execution of a prevention plan. Or is a civilization more advanced when they embrace their instincts and let people sort things out on their own?

Seems to me that you agree that murder is innately wrong (I'm assuming you draw a parallel between being more civilized and doing the "right" thing). If so, why?

Incest This one is tricky and once again you didn't really answer my question, you simply brought up a more immediate issue, so I'll go with that. If it's ok for a man to marry another man, what about those people who claim to develop deep loving relationships with their pets and wish to marry them? There was a case not too long ago about a guy who was having sex with a dolphin - is that any different and if so why?

Cannibalism This one I just didn't understand. It sounds like (in your first statement) that you believe there is something wrong with cannibalism and think it's so obvious that you shouldn't even need to be told that its wrong, but then you go on to say that Japan is cool with it and you have no problem with them doing it. Soooo, do you think cannibalism is ok or is there something wrong with it?

And lastly, I agree entirely with your statement that we should start practicing what we preach but that's the issue, isn't it? What exactly to preach? How do you get to an intelligent set of rules that everyone can agree upon (and presumably for the greater good) that are not based on any moral standing?
I just dont see where, in nature, senseless killing occurs. It's always for survival. Bears dont murder rabbits any more than we murder the salmon we fish.

Why would I consider murder wrong? Because I dont think there is an afterlife. This is our one shot at this form of consciousness if you will. After that, the computer is unplugged for good. At least, that is what common sense would lead a person to believe. For all we know, Bill Hicks had it right, this is all an illusion, its all a ride. Were just a bunch of molecules slowed down in vibration, life is a dream and we are the imagination of ourselves. It's possible. One theory doesnt necessarily negate the other.

Im the kind of person that will let a fly out the window before I smash it. If I dont have to kill it, why should I.


My point about incest is that its too subjective an example on your part. Most of the world doesnt see it as a problem. I simply dont care either. Religion has a problem with it and as a result we as Americans have been socially conditioned to be against it. But when you step back, its not as bad as we are made to believe. We are a less civilized society to be worried about something so trivial.

If someone loves their pet, so be it. If some guy wants to have sex with a dolphin and the dolphin doesnt mind, have at it. I would be concerned about the health ramifications to a minor degree but other than that, I dont care. In fact, I dont care for the institution of marriage at all. But that is another topic. Bottom line, this is, again, a very trivial matter that makes us less civilized to be so worried about. More people in this country care about gay rights than they do their kids educations. We rank very low in the world when it comes to testing yet when it comes to politics, we still are very worried about a guy sucking another guys dick. Absurd.

As far as cannibalism, I just dont see how having a law against it would make us more civilized. If you need a law, you are far from civilized. If natural resources are depleted to the point that we are literally eating each other, we are FAR from civilized. Metaphorically speaking, we are cannibals. The world today is evidence of that. And literally, we seem to not have a problem with it, because we feed cow parts to cows. Which is a huge health concern, so of course Im against cannibalism. But not from a moral standpoint, but from a health and basic common sense standpoint.

My point about Japan is that once again, this is a trivial issue. Our "rights" and "wrongs" are so subjective that we dont even realize it. We all live in a very small bubble. Just go look at the thread that Jtomaski asks where everyone gets their news from. It is appalling just how few sources. Talk about ignorance. How small are peoples vision of the world when they only get the news from one or two sources? Hell, I guarantee we all get our moto news from more than one source. I get my general sports news from 5-6 different sources before I form an opinion. If I just went by what ESPN wrote I'd only see half the picture.



How do you get a intelligent set of rules that everyone can agree upon and are not based on any moral standing? That should have been Jtomasik's first thread, before the how to fix America thread, because that is what it indeed boils down to. You need some very intelligent, well read, and well experienced people to rationalize and debate up a system. Which is what our founding fathers did. And even they saw the flaw which is why they said that a revolution would be necessary each and every generation in order to keep things intact. A world government (or religion) is not what they had in mind.
Racer92
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6/5/2012 6:03am
I think my sig sums it up.

Post a reply to: This is the loving God, eh?

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