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US
Edited Date/Time
1/25/2012 2:57pm
Both sides seem to think we need more manufacturing back in the states. So, if we bring factory jobs back to the US, we need people to work those jobs right? We don't have enough people to work those jobs unless we have people of all ages in the work force doing those jobs. That means factory jobs = career for some. If it's a career, then they need to be able to make a living wage right?
So what's a reasonable wage for an automotive factory worker?
So what's a reasonable wage for an automotive factory worker?
Capitalism, right?
Americans are very misguided on this. People bitch about jobs going overseas and illegals taking jobs away from Americans. The big issue is that most americans wont work those jobs anyhow, much less for the pay. Many of the jobs going overseas is what has lead to the drop in prices on tons of consumer products, tv's, kitchen appliances, things like that. When I was a kid not that long ago, we had 1 tv in the house, and had that same tv from the time I can remember until I was 16 I think. No new kitchen stuff, nothing like that. Now the cost on many of those items that used to be produced in the US have dropped drastically and everyone buys all kinds of crap they don't need. Yes, the stuff is junk because it's made in china, but people still buy it. By buying it, they are keeping the jobs out of the country. At the same time though, if those jobs came back to the US, no one would be able to buy anything from the companies anymore because a new microwave would cost $500 to pay the workers $25 an hour, plus benefits and everything else.
The US needs a shift in the work force to not just more manufacturing but the kids/young adults need a change of focus. Right now there are 140,000 nursing jobs open in the states right now. Starting salary in southern california is around 65k a year. But kids are too lazy to go to college and get a nursing degree. They want an easy degree, business, liberal arts etc. Then they graduate and think they should just be handed a job with good pay. Because they were taught in school by the teachers and mommy and daddy that if they went to school and got a degree they would instantly be working a great job making all kinds of money. Never mind hard work or anything. Truth told, half those kids would be ahead of the game if they worked at star bucks for the 5 years they went to college. At least then they would have some work expierence, time at a company and no debt to speak of.
Now that I am done with my rant, I'll assume I'll get flamed for making too much sense.
As everyone should have learned from GM. There is a limit on what these types of jobs pay. If I were firing off of the hip, I would say $18 to $20 an hour, as long as the company was making money.
The Shop
Good for you and your union.
But after seeing what was behind the curtain and how much the "managers and upper management" made I never felt bad about $33.00hr again. actually I felt bitter.
How much should the worker bees make? $18.00
How much should the managers make? about $25 / hr
the entire system is messed up. I have no idea how to fix it.
But here we are. Sure both sides want to produce jobs and get this economy going again. But you cant have your cake and eat it too. You cant ship these types of jobs off shore and still expect people who are only cut out for this type of work to suddenly take a pill that increases their IQ and expect them to somehow borrow thousands of dollars and go back to school and "evolve" from being a Marshmellow bag stuffer to an RN. Aint gonna happen. So what we have instead is an ever growing class of people who have to compete for an ever decreasing number of suitable jobs. Its reality, get used to it. If you are still one of the worker bees then be prepared to start paying more taxes to take care of those that cant find employment or be prepared to protect your property if the government decides to cut off the food stamps and aid, cause violence is just a few missed meals away.
As to the original question: A factory jobs pay used to be tied to the skills needed for that job. Today Id imagine it can be bartered down to the basement due to so many being out of work. Id like to see a minimum wage tied to the cost of living. Minimum wage should differ by state depending on local cost of living. And once a base is set that wage should increase with the cost of living. Not be left behind as it has been. If that is too much for a company to pay its employees then they too can go overseas. The elephant in the room no one "ever" wants to talk about is over population vs Capitalism. Until we have that discussion were headed down a steep hill wearing roller skates with no brakes.
The problem is that our "free market" is competing against the "free markets" in places like Indonesia.
If a factory worker can make $30/hr and the company can stay in business, who are we to say 'they should only make $10/hr'
Think about something we all follow and love, motocross.
How much should a motocross racer make?
I mean, most pro motocrossers are not well-educated, they don't produce anything of value to society. Their skill-sets are limited to making a dirt bike do what most of us can't.
So what should they make if we say a factory worker should only make $10/hr?
My answer is the same as my answer to the thread question.
As much as they can.
Pit Row
And China/India are hitting the end of their rope as far as dominating cheap labor. In certain areas, jobs are coming back to America already.
If I had a nickle for every time I have heard this from an employee... Funny how the ones with the positive attitudes, who go above and beyond, become the managers and the Owners.
There are a ton of people that make a bunch of sacrifices to get to where they are in a company or position in life. THere is always the ones that think it wasnt fair.
Im not saying anyone on here is that person, but Unions DO breed that mindset. Unions have no place in our society any more.
I was a "middle manager" type person in a union shop. I also did the payroll for the entire company so I got to see what each position paid from the owners to the porters.
At first I thought some people were overpaid but kept my opinions to myself. As time moved on I started to understand why some positions paid what they did. I was offered a position that paid twice what I was making but was unwilling to do it. It was a sales type position and I know I am not a salesman. As soon as I turned my back to that offer I fully understood why the guys in that job role made as much as they did.
Is everything "fair"? I don't think so, but things were close to fair.
The thing I found funny was listening to upper management bitch about the union then listening to the guys in the union bitch about upper management. Since I was literally in the "middle" I thought both sides had some valid points. Only the techs, porters and parts people were in the union. The rest of us were just regular workers. The biggest benefit the union brought was job security. It was very hard to fire someone in the union. The health benefits might have been better as well. I am not sure if the guys in the union would have been better off on there own like the rest of us. It would really depend on how pushy and valuable you were.
My concern (perhaps too strong a word) is with the, often unspoken, subtext to "as much as they can earn", which is too often "by any means". That's when things can start to unravel.
I'm responsible for keeping a multimillion dollar plant operating. One piece goes down, everything stops. It's up to me to get things rolling again. What's that worth?
I'm not looking for a number, just food for thought. The button pushers we support make a living, management shuffles paper all day and make good money. Top management has the most pressure, but does the least amount of work. What are those guys worth?
Weird deal, this world is.
First I agree that we HAVE to pay people based on value added. If we don't, then we will fail. Of course I think that should apply to the top of the chain as much as it does to the bottom.
Second, the people I'm talking about do repetitive tasks. Sure, some will show initiative and move up the ladder, but fundamentally, they are worker bees.
One critical point and what I said up front was EVERYONE talks about the loss of manufacturing jobs to out sourcing. Our GDP is down because the US isn't making stuff. Manufacturing created the middle class that we all cherish right?
My point isn't that there is a specific number that manufacturing jobs should pay, but that these jobs do represent a lifetimes work for many and they need to make enough to live that life. Not get rich or even live in luxury, but these people will have families and our society has to recognize the value of the masses.
On a related thought, I think people used to be more patient with life. They started out in a true starter home/apartment. They had a crappy car that they worked on over the weekend. They did not have a credit card and they didn't get in a mountain of debt. Over a lifetime, they did ok.
I think credit has hurt this country. Maybe lending standards need to be elevated? Maybe that's the crux of the problem.
However, I don't know if "kids are too lazy" to get a nursing degree as much as maybe that don't want to do nursing. I just graduated in May from Penn State with an "easy degree" in business. I had a 3.75 GPA, received 3 or 4 academic awards, started my own part time business, and worked for another company on Saturdays 10-12 hours to help with everything and still owe a good 40k. Wasn't able to get any grants or scholarships because my parents "make too much money" and because I'm a white male. Since March I've applied for 78 jobs, inquired about a good 20 more, and passed over hundreds of jobs that pay less than what I make now or didn't require a degree.
I've been working since 17 and have an excellent track record, but everywhere I apply they want 3+ years of experience in management, marketing, financial experience, etc..
To answer the how much should factory workers make question:
As a "factory" worker in PA I make $16.50...just got a $1.20 raise in Sept. I started out at $15.30 on 1st shift and 15.80 on 2nd 2 years ago.
The summer before I worked at Target Distribution and made $15.81 an hour. Now I think people at Target make $18-19/hr.
I wouldn't say I'm in the ideal situation, but I'm thankful to have a job that pays what it does.
I think youre right. But how do you put the genie back in the bottle? Our economy has become dependant on people spending money that they have yet to earn. Too bad there isnt some sort of GIANT RESET button.
To your point: I can remember as a 9 year old boy in 1959 my family moved into a new home in a housing tract. For as long as my young mind can remember, people had dirt front yards that they'd work on on the weekends. Planting grass, shrubs, making planters etc. Most homes had sheets for window coverings for a short time. And wall to wall carpet might take years to aquire. It was normal to buy your first washer and dryer used. I think the only credit card at the time was Sears Roebuk. People for the most part "saved" in a cookie jar every dime they could spare until they had enough to buy that wash machine. Simpler times. Ive mentioned on here that even at age 27 in 1977 that I could not as a single man making what I was making at the time, qualify tor a credit card. Today anyone older than a fetus in its first trimester can qualify. Somewhere someone (or everyone) got greedy. Oopsie.
If irresponsible use of credit is an issue, the argument turns into a personal responsibility question. I suppose if the lender was risking their own money, they might tighten up their policies. The borrower should live up to their obligations, but that's always been an issue and it's why lending/borrowing is risky.
Do we need a nanny state to protect us from ourselves?
Kind of looks that way.
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