Physics with Falcon (and others)

Hoseclamp
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8/15/2021 11:05am
Hoseclamp wrote:
Dang, got me thinking of more gun related physics. Typically a heavier bullet for a given caliber will require more twist to stabilize it, not necessarily...
Dang, got me thinking of more gun related physics.

Typically a heavier bullet for a given caliber will require more twist to stabilize it, not necessarily because of the weight but because of the length. See you cant make the bullet and bigger around so the heavier ones are longer to gain the extra weight. Of course there are some exceptions due to actual bullet construction/materials.

Which leads into a 1:10 twist being faster than a 1:12 twist which seems backwards untill you think about it.

Also in long range load development, "watching" the barrel move in and out of its harmonic "sweet spot" as you make the loads hotter and hotter is pretty cool. Reading about it is one thing, but seeing it in person is truely fascinating to watch.

Remind me again how a boat tail works. Haha
m121c wrote:
For my physics III final I created a computational model of a bullet being fired to study "celebratory gun fire" after I had heard about this...
For my physics III final I created a computational model of a bullet being fired to study "celebratory gun fire" after I had heard about this being an issue.. particularly over seas where civilians get their hands on military grade weapons and will fire them in the air in celebration (say at a wedding). Don't quote me, but the news story goes that one wedding in particular ended up with 22 (?) people killed or injured from people shooting bullets straight up in the air. Can't remember really.

The model would account for different bullet/weapon types and then would log their final energy state when they would impact. Everything but a 9mm meant almost certain death... even when fired directly straight above your head meaning the bullet at some height has a point of zero velocity... although with a 9mm you had a slight survival rate depending on location, elevation, etc.

Apparently stray bullets is actually a big problem... peoples homes/roofs get hit all the time. Might seem pretty trivial but I never really thought a bullet falling would have that much force.
Robgvx wrote:
I have a Pheasant shoot that operates next to my house. When they shoot from a few hundred yards away the shotgun pellets fall on my...
I have a Pheasant shoot that operates next to my house. When they shoot from a few hundred yards away the shotgun pellets fall on my cars, and us! I was in the garden once and got hit. Hardly felt it, but nonetheless I can say that I’ve been shot by a twelve-bore!
Yikes! Ive always tried to be very conscious of what direction I shoot and where my bullet (or shot) may go. My eyes were really opened the first time we shot tracer rounds. Even after a bounce off the ground near the traget they can easily fly up up and away. And m121c, although that sounds like a cool study, anyone that shoots a gun straight in the air as a celebration should be slapped. Thats just dumb.
ToolMaker
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8/15/2021 1:17pm
Falcon wrote:
Here's one that my friend, who is a rifleman, just won't believe: A bullet, upon leaving the muzzle of a gun, drops to the ground as...
Here's one that my friend, who is a rifleman, just won't believe:

A bullet, upon leaving the muzzle of a gun, drops to the ground as quickly as if you had dropped it from your hand.
ToolMaker wrote:
While I believe that to be true, I also believe that it will take longer to "hit" the ground. If you fire a bullet level, as...
While I believe that to be true, I also believe that it will take longer to "hit" the ground. If you fire a bullet level, as the bullet travels, the ground is dropping away from the bullet and the bullet has further to drop.
TM
Falcon wrote:
Because of the Earth's curvature, you mean? That would be true as well, to a very small degree.
Yup
SEEMEFIRST
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8/15/2021 2:25pm Edited Date/Time 8/15/2021 2:26pm
ToolMaker wrote:
While I believe that to be true, I also believe that it will take longer to "hit" the ground. If you fire a bullet level, as...
While I believe that to be true, I also believe that it will take longer to "hit" the ground. If you fire a bullet level, as the bullet travels, the ground is dropping away from the bullet and the bullet has further to drop.
TM
Falcon wrote:
Because of the Earth's curvature, you mean? That would be true as well, to a very small degree.
ToolMaker wrote:
Yup
But gravity doesn't change.
The bullet would have to create lift to overcome the curvature of the earth.

It's all moot anyway because the earth is flat, right?
Timo
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8/15/2021 11:29pm
m121c wrote:
For my physics III final I created a computational model of a bullet being fired to study "celebratory gun fire" after I had heard about this...
For my physics III final I created a computational model of a bullet being fired to study "celebratory gun fire" after I had heard about this being an issue.. particularly over seas where civilians get their hands on military grade weapons and will fire them in the air in celebration (say at a wedding). Don't quote me, but the news story goes that one wedding in particular ended up with 22 (?) people killed or injured from people shooting bullets straight up in the air. Can't remember really.

The model would account for different bullet/weapon types and then would log their final energy state when they would impact. Everything but a 9mm meant almost certain death... even when fired directly straight above your head meaning the bullet at some height has a point of zero velocity... although with a 9mm you had a slight survival rate depending on location, elevation, etc.

Apparently stray bullets is actually a big problem... peoples homes/roofs get hit all the time. Might seem pretty trivial but I never really thought a bullet falling would have that much force.
Robgvx wrote:
I have a Pheasant shoot that operates next to my house. When they shoot from a few hundred yards away the shotgun pellets fall on my...
I have a Pheasant shoot that operates next to my house. When they shoot from a few hundred yards away the shotgun pellets fall on my cars, and us! I was in the garden once and got hit. Hardly felt it, but nonetheless I can say that I’ve been shot by a twelve-bore!
Hoseclamp wrote:
Yikes! Ive always tried to be very conscious of what direction I shoot and where my bullet (or shot) may go. My eyes were really opened...
Yikes! Ive always tried to be very conscious of what direction I shoot and where my bullet (or shot) may go. My eyes were really opened the first time we shot tracer rounds. Even after a bounce off the ground near the traget they can easily fly up up and away. And m121c, although that sounds like a cool study, anyone that shoots a gun straight in the air as a celebration should be slapped. Thats just dumb.
Wouldn't the bullet shot straight up only have gravity pulling it back down? It would be like someone on top of a tall building dropping the bullet off the side, I would think most don't have enough mass to be deadly, would hurt though. The issue I've heard of is the jackass's that fire with a 45-80° angle, the bullet can still be supersonic when it hits the ground.
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The Shop

Hoseclamp
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8/16/2021 6:20am
Timo wrote:
Wouldn't the bullet shot straight up only have gravity pulling it back down? It would be like someone on top of a tall building dropping the...
Wouldn't the bullet shot straight up only have gravity pulling it back down? It would be like someone on top of a tall building dropping the bullet off the side, I would think most don't have enough mass to be deadly, would hurt though. The issue I've heard of is the jackass's that fire with a 45-80° angle, the bullet can still be supersonic when it hits the ground.
Surely a bullet shot straight up would run out of velocity and fall back down with the force of gravity alone. What is gravity top speed? Isnt that called terminal velocity? Thats where it could get interesting. The bullet would invert and come back down nose first... right.?. Then how does the shape of the nose affect terminal velocity? I would think a rifle bullet with a pointy ogive would fall faster than say the 9mm with a rounded nose due to the atmospheric drag (balistic coefficient). That almost has to be the case..... right? Maybe thats why you have a chance at living when stuck by a 9mm falling but not a rifle round like mentioned in the study above. I would think the actual weight of the projectile would also affect the energy delivered on contact. Im intrigued by m121c's study. What rounds were studied? What about a .22, would that result in death but possibly not with a 9mm? That dosnt seem right. How does say a 5.56 compare to a 9mm? The 9mm has more weight = more energy on impact, but the 5.56 is more streamline so it should reach a higher speed, and due to its shape would penetrate better too making it more deadly. Ive ended up with more questions than answers.
SEEMEFIRST
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8/16/2021 6:56am Edited Date/Time 8/16/2021 6:58am
The bullet would begin to tumble once it quits spinning.
I think terminal velocity would be somewhere between 150-170 MPH maybe?

.45s are sub-sonic.
sende
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8/16/2021 11:23am Edited Date/Time 8/16/2021 12:38pm
SEEMEFIRST wrote:
Why?
I'm asking because I don't know.
Radio waves move in space, why wouldn't sound waves?
Robgvx wrote:
Because sound is vibrations in the air I believe.
Falcon wrote:
Correct. Sound requires a medium to propogate through, as it is merely waves of alternating high and low pressure. As there is zero pressure in space...
Correct. Sound requires a medium to propogate through, as it is merely waves of alternating high and low pressure. As there is zero pressure in space, there is also zero sound. Note that you can hear sound through solid objects, as well.

Imagine the noise we'd hear during the daytime if we could hear the sun!
If we could hear the sun and it suddenly disappeared we'd still hear the sound for a while.

The speed of sound is 767 miles per hour, and that the distance to the Sun is 92,960,000 miles. So, 5,049.98 Days.
Which is 13 yrs and 10 months.

About 8 minutes we would still see it after the disappearance.

That is very likely to happen too. GrinningGrinning
Falcon
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8/16/2021 11:45am
APLMAN99 wrote:
When you say faster, do you actually mean in less distance on the x axis or faster by time?
Hoseclamp wrote:
Hmmmm... good question. When shot into the wind it will fall in less distance for sure due to the wind pushing back on it. Time till...
Hmmmm... good question. When shot into the wind it will fall in less distance for sure due to the wind pushing back on it. Time till it drops? Im not sure.
APLMAN99 wrote:
Not sure either, but at first thought it would seem that if a bullet produced no lift, like a wing, then the time wouldn’t change. But...
Not sure either, but at first thought it would seem that if a bullet produced no lift, like a wing, then the time wouldn’t change. But there could be something else working on it I guess.
I could not explain the coriolis effect, as I do not know what it is.

Hoseclamp, I believe the bullet will fall to the ground in the same amount of time, regardless of which direction the wind is blowing. The exception would be for wind effects, like you mentioned with the spin of the bullet "climbing" up the atmosphere in certain conditions. According to my understanding of Newtonian physics and notwithstanding any atmospheric effects, a bullet would fall directly from muzzle height immediately upon firing if fired level to the ground. (Excuse me; immediately upon leaving the barrel - not immediately upon "firing.") It would take the same number of seconds to impact the Earth regardless of muzzle velocity, although obviously it would land farther away at higher velocities.

As for stray bullets, let's do some quick analysis. This is clearly too simple, but I bet it accounts for 99% of the movements of a bullet:
When fired directly upward, the bullet would describe a ballistic trajectory, like any other thing shot or thrown. It would leave the muzzle of the gun at muzzle velocity. It would then lose velocity at the same rate that gravity accelerates everything; 9.81 m/s squared. At some point it will come to a stop at its highest point, then plummet back to Earth, experiencing the same acceleration. The same amount of time will elapse on the way down as on the way up. Discounting any atmospheric drag, the bullet would re-achieve muzzle velocity by the time it returns to the height from which it was fired. Yes, it is dangerous to fire a gun into the air!
Falcon
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8/16/2021 11:49am
I looked up the coriolis effect. Blink Sorry guys, that's beyond my pay grade. Grinning
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APLMAN99
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8/16/2021 12:51pm
Hoseclamp wrote:
Hmmmm... good question. When shot into the wind it will fall in less distance for sure due to the wind pushing back on it. Time till...
Hmmmm... good question. When shot into the wind it will fall in less distance for sure due to the wind pushing back on it. Time till it drops? Im not sure.
APLMAN99 wrote:
Not sure either, but at first thought it would seem that if a bullet produced no lift, like a wing, then the time wouldn’t change. But...
Not sure either, but at first thought it would seem that if a bullet produced no lift, like a wing, then the time wouldn’t change. But there could be something else working on it I guess.
Falcon wrote:
I could not explain the coriolis effect, as I do not know what it is. Hoseclamp, I believe the bullet will fall to the ground in...
I could not explain the coriolis effect, as I do not know what it is.

Hoseclamp, I believe the bullet will fall to the ground in the same amount of time, regardless of which direction the wind is blowing. The exception would be for wind effects, like you mentioned with the spin of the bullet "climbing" up the atmosphere in certain conditions. According to my understanding of Newtonian physics and notwithstanding any atmospheric effects, a bullet would fall directly from muzzle height immediately upon firing if fired level to the ground. (Excuse me; immediately upon leaving the barrel - not immediately upon "firing.") It would take the same number of seconds to impact the Earth regardless of muzzle velocity, although obviously it would land farther away at higher velocities.

As for stray bullets, let's do some quick analysis. This is clearly too simple, but I bet it accounts for 99% of the movements of a bullet:
When fired directly upward, the bullet would describe a ballistic trajectory, like any other thing shot or thrown. It would leave the muzzle of the gun at muzzle velocity. It would then lose velocity at the same rate that gravity accelerates everything; 9.81 m/s squared. At some point it will come to a stop at its highest point, then plummet back to Earth, experiencing the same acceleration. The same amount of time will elapse on the way down as on the way up. Discounting any atmospheric drag, the bullet would re-achieve muzzle velocity by the time it returns to the height from which it was fired. Yes, it is dangerous to fire a gun into the air!
I don't think that the falling bullet would achieve muzzle velocity on the descent, would it? Wouldn't it simply achieve the same rate of speed as the exact same slug dropped by hand from the apex of the flight?
Falcon
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8/16/2021 1:51pm
APLMAN99 wrote:
Not sure either, but at first thought it would seem that if a bullet produced no lift, like a wing, then the time wouldn’t change. But...
Not sure either, but at first thought it would seem that if a bullet produced no lift, like a wing, then the time wouldn’t change. But there could be something else working on it I guess.
Falcon wrote:
I could not explain the coriolis effect, as I do not know what it is. Hoseclamp, I believe the bullet will fall to the ground in...
I could not explain the coriolis effect, as I do not know what it is.

Hoseclamp, I believe the bullet will fall to the ground in the same amount of time, regardless of which direction the wind is blowing. The exception would be for wind effects, like you mentioned with the spin of the bullet "climbing" up the atmosphere in certain conditions. According to my understanding of Newtonian physics and notwithstanding any atmospheric effects, a bullet would fall directly from muzzle height immediately upon firing if fired level to the ground. (Excuse me; immediately upon leaving the barrel - not immediately upon "firing.") It would take the same number of seconds to impact the Earth regardless of muzzle velocity, although obviously it would land farther away at higher velocities.

As for stray bullets, let's do some quick analysis. This is clearly too simple, but I bet it accounts for 99% of the movements of a bullet:
When fired directly upward, the bullet would describe a ballistic trajectory, like any other thing shot or thrown. It would leave the muzzle of the gun at muzzle velocity. It would then lose velocity at the same rate that gravity accelerates everything; 9.81 m/s squared. At some point it will come to a stop at its highest point, then plummet back to Earth, experiencing the same acceleration. The same amount of time will elapse on the way down as on the way up. Discounting any atmospheric drag, the bullet would re-achieve muzzle velocity by the time it returns to the height from which it was fired. Yes, it is dangerous to fire a gun into the air!
APLMAN99 wrote:
I don't think that the falling bullet would achieve muzzle velocity on the descent, would it? Wouldn't it simply achieve the same rate of speed as...
I don't think that the falling bullet would achieve muzzle velocity on the descent, would it? Wouldn't it simply achieve the same rate of speed as the exact same slug dropped by hand from the apex of the flight?
Aplman, we're both correct.

The velocity reached by dropping it from the highest point should be the same as if it were fired up to that point. The result is that the bullet stops a pretty astounding way up (several miles, I'd guess,) and then accelerates all the way down. There is nothing stopping the bullet from reaching muzzle velocity, as the acceleration due to gravity does not "give up" part way down.
Where my calculations falter is with regard to air resistance. I don't know to what extent that will change the equation, but obviously a bullet has a pretty aerodynamic profile. I'd be willing to bet it doesn't change very much.

m121c, what were your findings on the subject?
SEEMEFIRST
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8/16/2021 2:09pm
I'm no physicist, but I don't think a bullet fired from a super-sonic rifle would ever reach equivalent speed on the way down.

No spin would cause tumble, and wind resistance would keep it from reaching more than 180 MPH compared to the 700MPH plus at muzzle velocity.
Falcon
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8/16/2021 2:09pm
Oooh, this is fun. I did a quick calculation, using an initial value of 90 degrees (straight up,) and 200 meters per second (kind of a low median value for firearms,) and got a maximum height of 2038 meters, or 1.2 miles.
If my math is correct, it would take the bullet just over 20 seconds to reach the zenith of its flight and 20 seconds to fall back to Earth.

http://www.convertalot.com/ballistic_trajectory_calculator.html
Falcon
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8/16/2021 2:14pm
SEEMEFIRST wrote:
I'm no physicist, but I don't think a bullet fired from a super-sonic rifle would ever reach equivalent speed on the way down. No spin would...
I'm no physicist, but I don't think a bullet fired from a super-sonic rifle would ever reach equivalent speed on the way down.

No spin would cause tumble, and wind resistance would keep it from reaching more than 180 MPH compared to the 700MPH plus at muzzle velocity.
Again, we're going to forget the effects of wind resistance for this simple calculation. We're sort of pretending there is no atmosphere on the Earth. I understand it would necessarily be slower on the way down in actual life.

Why 180 MPH, though? My guess is that a bullet is far more aerodynamic than that, even without spin.
Fonzarelli
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8/16/2021 3:47pm Edited Date/Time 8/16/2021 4:31pm
Here's some strange physics. Grab a tennis racket and flip it like this guy.



Except flip it so it only goes straight end over end instead of twisting 180 degrees and ending up upside down.

Good luck, nobody has done it yet.
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SEEMEFIRST
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8/16/2021 4:02pm
SEEMEFIRST wrote:
I'm no physicist, but I don't think a bullet fired from a super-sonic rifle would ever reach equivalent speed on the way down. No spin would...
I'm no physicist, but I don't think a bullet fired from a super-sonic rifle would ever reach equivalent speed on the way down.

No spin would cause tumble, and wind resistance would keep it from reaching more than 180 MPH compared to the 700MPH plus at muzzle velocity.
Falcon wrote:
Again, we're going to forget the effects of wind resistance for this simple calculation. We're sort of pretending there is no atmosphere on the Earth. I...
Again, we're going to forget the effects of wind resistance for this simple calculation. We're sort of pretending there is no atmosphere on the Earth. I understand it would necessarily be slower on the way down in actual life.

Why 180 MPH, though? My guess is that a bullet is far more aerodynamic than that, even without spin.
Spin is the only thing keeping a bullet going point first. With no rifling in the barrel, you would have a tumbling bullet not long after it left the muzzle.

The 180 is a loose terminal velocity speed figuring atmosphere.

In a vacuum, distance would be the only factor, and you might achieve the same muzzle speeds free falling.
Falcon
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8/16/2021 4:18pm
early wrote:
Here's an interesting bullet experiment. Looks like there's alot more drag on a bullet than you might think.
https://web.archive.org/web/20080331192517/http://www.loadammo.com/Topi…
That really is much more drag than I would have thought.

Bullets, especially of the supersonic kind, must slow down pretty dramatically at first!
rallendude
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9/3/2021 7:16am
There are a lot of YouTube videos out there on long range shooting. Coriolis isn't as hard as it sounds. The earth is curved and it's rotating. Yes, the curvature of the earth is a pretty big deal in ballistics when trying to reach targets a long way out. When shooting 300 yards (think hunting) it's not such a big deal. But for military and competition type long range shots, it matters. When calculating the time for a bullet to drop it won't be a huge factor but if you're trying to place a shot within a couple of inches on a target two or three thousand feet away it is. Wind resistance is also a really big deal. Bullets can be blown laterally for pretty big offsets when you get to those longer shots.

For the shots fired straight up, Falcon your engineering calculations are correct. But they all assume there is no atmosphere. The results are pretty staggering when you figure them that way. But knowing that wind resistance is such a big part of shot placement in the real world means they aren't very accurate for...... well, the real world. Terminal velocity on the way back down "might" be fudged slightly higher because of the density of the projectile but like was mentioned before, the bullet would likely start to tumble well before it apexed. Therefore, it should take considerably longer to return to the earth for a couple of reasons. First, it will be tumbling, which further increases the wind affects. Second, that wind resistance will not allow the item to go past it's relative terminal velocity. That terminal velocity will not be anywhere close to the actual muzzle speed of the fired projectile. Those bullets will still kill at terminal velocity although a smaller projectile might be less likely to kill.

If you have time, go watch this: https://youtu.be/jX7dcl_ERNs . It's a pretty good explanation of the Coriolis affect. There are other really cool vids out there showing how a spotter can actually see the vapor trail behind a high speed bullet and watch it's trajectory to impact. The things these guys do at distance is amazing to me and partly understanding the physics behind it makes it that much better.

Also, since we are talking about bullets, the trajectory of a bullet is always slightly angled up when trying to shoot a target in a horizonal orientation because of the way gun sights work. It's the reason guns have to be zeroed at certain distances and will be offset at any distance other than the zero distance. The sight of the gun is always above the gun bore. The bore has an axis and the sights, be it a magnified scope or fixed open sights, have their own axis. The gun will be "zeroed" where ever the sight axis is adjusted in intersect with the bore axis plus the amount of bullet drop. So the bullet will typically exit the end of the bore traveling slightly toward the sight axis. Like mentioned in an earlier post, at some point the bullet trajectory will cross the sight axis as it travels away and slightly up. Then, at some other point in time, after the bullet apexes, the bullet will cross the sight axis again traveling downward. So the gun can technically be zeroed at two distances. The Coriolis affect effectively means the target is moving relative to where it was when the bullet was fired. Some of the travel times are in excess of 5 seconds. Since the earth is round(ish), that means the target is traveling up and closer or down and farther away depending on the direction you've fired. It's most effective in shots due east or west. There are charts and computer programs developed for taking account for these things. Add to that the differences in bullet projectile mass, shape, and the amount of charge in the casing and you get a pretty complex calculation if you're trying to shoot a target the size of a watermelon (or a man) from a long way away.
Falcon
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9/3/2021 8:48am
Yeah, that's way too much math for me, but super cool! Cool

Most of my physics relies on ignoring atmospheric effects.
SEEMEFIRST
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9/4/2021 10:07am
Then there's "spindrift".
Even in dead calm conditions, a bullet will drift right or left depending on barrel twist.

Kinda like when you duck hook or slice a tee shot. Tongue
AJ565
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9/5/2021 6:37pm
I can’t find the straight up video. They proved that a bullet shot straight up will come pretty close to straight down and not be lethal. It will go as high as it goes then stop before falling back at a much slower speed and tumble without spinning. Take the angle off 90° and the bullet will keep its spin and can be deadly.
SEEMEFIRST
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9/5/2021 7:11pm
AJ565 wrote:
I can’t find the straight up video. They proved that a bullet shot straight up will come pretty close to straight down and not be lethal...
I can’t find the straight up video. They proved that a bullet shot straight up will come pretty close to straight down and not be lethal. It will go as high as it goes then stop before falling back at a much slower speed and tumble without spinning. Take the angle off 90° and the bullet will keep its spin and can be deadly.
Yeah, that's really a no brainer.
Now you have something dropped from a high place. Nothing like leaving a muzzle.

Not even remotely like leaving a muzzle.
Robgvx
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3/3/2022 11:28pm
I haven’t actually tried this so I’m not sure if I’m right about this one, but here goes…

If I clamp a length of 6mm steel rod in a vice and push down on it it will bend. But if I pull upwards with the same force I *doubt* it would return to being a perfectly straight rod again. I imagine that at best it would have a kink by the vice. Why is that?

As I said, I haven’t tried this, so maybe if the forces and direction were *exactly* the same/opposite then it would. Or would it..?
3/4/2022 6:28am
I didn't look this up and I'm not a mechanical or structural engineer, but I'm pretty sure it has something to do with the moment shifting after the initial bending and the change in force direction.

Or maybe I'm talking out of my ass, I don't know.
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3/4/2022 8:38am Edited Date/Time 3/4/2022 8:39am
Robgvx wrote:
I haven’t actually tried this so I’m not sure if I’m right about this one, but here goes… If I clamp a length of 6mm steel...
I haven’t actually tried this so I’m not sure if I’m right about this one, but here goes…

If I clamp a length of 6mm steel rod in a vice and push down on it it will bend. But if I pull upwards with the same force I *doubt* it would return to being a perfectly straight rod again. I imagine that at best it would have a kink by the vice. Why is that?

As I said, I haven’t tried this, so maybe if the forces and direction were *exactly* the same/opposite then it would. Or would it..?
Here's my take:
By bending, you are breaking some of the molecular bonds in the metal. Those will not reconnect unless the steel is molten (I think.) You'll never again have the steel rod in the original condition. Imagine if you were to bend back and forth repeatedly. Eventually the rod would break at the spot where the bending occurs.

I do think you could get a perfectly straight rod again, with just the right application of forces. It just wouldn't be as strong.


Any metallurgists in the building??
Hoseclamp
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3/4/2022 10:13am
No metallurgest, but I work in heatreat often. We straighten steel rods (or plates) after they come out of the furnace using V blocks on either end and a press in the middle. It takes more pressure overcome the initial warp than if you over bend it and need to roll it and bend it back. Its like once you overbend it it becomes much easier to move. On smaller stuff we count the number of pumps we are applying and in that way you can tell how much pressure your applying, so it becomes obvious how much more pressure it takes to move it in the first place. We also have a big press that will go up to 200 Tons of pressure on a guage. Its a little sobering watching a large diameter shaft at 30 Rockwell bend as far as it does when you apply 200 tons of pressure. Ive seen smaller shafts break and that shit comes flying out like a bullet. If it hit you you would DIE! I used to have a picture of a smaller shaft 1¹/² or so bent real far in the press but I cant find it. I did find a plate being straightened. As far as that thing is bent, it will snap back to straight as soon as I release the pressure. Also interesting (though I cant explain it) if the part is say 40 RC and up it is too brittle to press it to straighten so we use a vibrating chisel type aparatus. Its kinda opposite of how you would think though, we actually "chisel" on the low side of the part and it brings it up until it is straight. Heatreat is pretty cool when you can learn all the little intricacies and the ins and outs. Im not sure I answered the question very well but hopefully someone learned something.
early
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Fantasy
2212th
3/4/2022 10:24am
Robgvx wrote:
I haven’t actually tried this so I’m not sure if I’m right about this one, but here goes… If I clamp a length of 6mm steel...
I haven’t actually tried this so I’m not sure if I’m right about this one, but here goes…

If I clamp a length of 6mm steel rod in a vice and push down on it it will bend. But if I pull upwards with the same force I *doubt* it would return to being a perfectly straight rod again. I imagine that at best it would have a kink by the vice. Why is that?

As I said, I haven’t tried this, so maybe if the forces and direction were *exactly* the same/opposite then it would. Or would it..?
Falcon wrote:
Here's my take: By bending, you are breaking some of the molecular bonds in the metal. Those will not reconnect unless the steel is molten (I...
Here's my take:
By bending, you are breaking some of the molecular bonds in the metal. Those will not reconnect unless the steel is molten (I think.) You'll never again have the steel rod in the original condition. Imagine if you were to bend back and forth repeatedly. Eventually the rod would break at the spot where the bending occurs.

I do think you could get a perfectly straight rod again, with just the right application of forces. It just wouldn't be as strong.


Any metallurgists in the building??
Robgvx
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GB
3/4/2022 1:53pm
Robgvx wrote:
I haven’t actually tried this so I’m not sure if I’m right about this one, but here goes… If I clamp a length of 6mm steel...
I haven’t actually tried this so I’m not sure if I’m right about this one, but here goes…

If I clamp a length of 6mm steel rod in a vice and push down on it it will bend. But if I pull upwards with the same force I *doubt* it would return to being a perfectly straight rod again. I imagine that at best it would have a kink by the vice. Why is that?

As I said, I haven’t tried this, so maybe if the forces and direction were *exactly* the same/opposite then it would. Or would it..?
Incidentally, the ‘bending a rod in a vice’ thing reminds me of another story I was told about why conventional forks are inherently better than upside down forks.

I was told this by Marzocchi, so who knows if it’s true, but it makes sense to me.

So when forks hit a bump, or land from a jump the forks try to bend/flex forward or backwards for due to the forces. (Everything flexes, even if only by a very small amount). They will flex the most at the weakest point/point of most leverage.

Conventional forks will flex where the chrome tube exits the lower triple clamp: that’s the point of greatest leverage. The lower part, where the outer tube is sliding over the chrome stanchion remains straighter.

With USD forks it’s different. The flex point is where the smaller chrome tube enters the outer tube. So the bent chrome tube is trying to go through the tight bushes in the outer tube. As a result it binds, whereas the conventional fork has a far smoother action because the maximum bend point is not at the point where the two tubes are sliding.

Not sure whether I explained that well enough. But as I said, it makes sense to me. I’m sure modern, larger diameter USD tubes may have mitigated that problem somewhat but it’s hard to argue against the logic.

To this day, the best forks I ever rode with were Marzocchi conventionals…
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