Net Neutrality Repeal

12/17/2017 6:07pm
early wrote:
At the end of the day this is probably a big conspiracy to tax porn, gambling, and movies on the internet at a higher rate than...
At the end of the day this is probably a big conspiracy to tax porn, gambling, and movies on the internet at a higher rate than the rest of your bill. Chuck Grassley just said when you give the poor a tax cut theyll "just spend it on booze, women, and movies". This allows the government to collude with the isp's to block porn sites unless you pay for a porn package at $20 a month with an extra 25% tax just like the extra tax that is applied to liquor and tobacco. Same with the movie idustry that is despised by the right, and the gambling sites that are taking money out of Sheldon Adelson and Trumps pocket from decreased casino visits.
WoohooSillyWoohooPinchWoohooGrinningSillyWoohoo
early
Posts
8260
Joined
2/13/2013
Location
University Heights, OH US
Fantasy
2212th
12/17/2017 7:50pm
ToolMaker wrote:
So by changing the subject I take it you concede the point? Actually I hate the cable company. But I use them. I haven't used them...
So by changing the subject I take it you concede the point?

Actually I hate the cable company. But I use them. I haven't used them for 20 years so I can't go back that far. I had an antenna and or dish network prior to them. My cable bill starts out at $120ish per month for 2 years then goes up $50,
then I cancel their services. After 1-2 months they call me and ask if they can bring me back at $120 for 2 years
and I resign. Presently I'm at the point where I need to cancel. Before them I had AT&T over the phone line internet.
I think they called it DSL. Prior to that you had to pay someone like AOL or compuserv in addition to your phone line.
So in effect today I'm getting more for less.
The only thing I know for sure is that things evolve. The internet as you know it today will be delivered very different
in just 10 years. Do I know what it will be? No, I just know that with all the evolution I've seen in the last 20 years I know this is not something that will be stagnant. So I think you making mountains out of mouse turds.
TM
No, comparing phone companies is comparing apples and oranges since the major mobile networks are active in most major markets along with smaller carriers means there is high competition. I dont believe that easing the rules that governs wired isp providers will entice sigificantly more firms to enter the market, but im pessimistic on the issue.

It may turn out to be nothing, but you cant deny that the possibility of exploitation of the customer is greater now than it was before.
bball35
Posts
326
Joined
11/20/2017
Location
Lexington, SC US
12/18/2017 5:28am
ToolMaker wrote:
Wrong, AT&T under your net neutrality gave better pricing to stream their Direct TV that would not count against their data usage. Under "net neutrality" But...
Wrong, AT&T under your net neutrality gave better pricing to stream their Direct TV
that would not count against their data usage. Under "net neutrality"
But wait, NN has only been around 2-3 years, prices have been dropping for 20
How does that work? Used to pay over $1 per minute to talk on a cell.
early wrote:
In the last 20 years has your cable bill been getting cheaper? These are the companies you are trusting to give you the same selection of...
In the last 20 years has your cable bill been getting cheaper? These are the companies you are trusting to give you the same selection of content for a lower price when history shows that they will not do that.
Cable company prices have went up because the channels are forcing them to pay more and more per channel a month. Trying to compare cable companies and the internet are not the same comparison.

The one thing about the cable companies since you brought it up is that since streaming has become so big their has been more options for consumers. I can get my bill down to practically nothing from my cable provider.
early
Posts
8260
Joined
2/13/2013
Location
University Heights, OH US
Fantasy
2212th
12/18/2017 5:58am
bball35 wrote:
Cable company prices have went up because the channels are forcing them to pay more and more per channel a month. Trying to compare cable companies...
Cable company prices have went up because the channels are forcing them to pay more and more per channel a month. Trying to compare cable companies and the internet are not the same comparison.

The one thing about the cable companies since you brought it up is that since streaming has become so big their has been more options for consumers. I can get my bill down to practically nothing from my cable provider.
So, you like the options that streaming has opened up because ot gave you options not controlled by your cable company, but think its a good idea to let the cable companies (most peoples isp's) complete control over how those options are prioritized, bundled, priced, etc?

The Shop

bball35
Posts
326
Joined
11/20/2017
Location
Lexington, SC US
12/18/2017 6:55am
bball35 wrote:
Cable company prices have went up because the channels are forcing them to pay more and more per channel a month. Trying to compare cable companies...
Cable company prices have went up because the channels are forcing them to pay more and more per channel a month. Trying to compare cable companies and the internet are not the same comparison.

The one thing about the cable companies since you brought it up is that since streaming has become so big their has been more options for consumers. I can get my bill down to practically nothing from my cable provider.
early wrote:
So, you like the options that streaming has opened up because ot gave you options not controlled by your cable company, but think its a good...
So, you like the options that streaming has opened up because ot gave you options not controlled by your cable company, but think its a good idea to let the cable companies (most peoples isp's) complete control over how those options are prioritized, bundled, priced, etc?
I do because as long as their is competition in markets they will have to compete with others on price.
early
Posts
8260
Joined
2/13/2013
Location
University Heights, OH US
Fantasy
2212th
12/18/2017 7:06am
bball35 wrote:
I do because as long as their is competition in markets they will have to compete with others on price.
Well like i said I guess I am just a little more skeptical that the isp's will actually use the new power they have been granted to improve service and not simply raise revenue so they can improve their stock price and purchase competitors.
12/18/2017 7:29am
bball35 wrote:
I do because as long as their is competition in markets they will have to compete with others on price.
early wrote:
Well like i said I guess I am just a little more skeptical that the isp's will actually use the new power they have been granted...
Well like i said I guess I am just a little more skeptical that the isp's will actually use the new power they have been granted to improve service and not simply raise revenue so they can improve their stock price and purchase competitors.
They are already improving networks. Try to buy a reel of optical cable. The large telcos have bought out all of the major manufacturers for the next several years.
early
Posts
8260
Joined
2/13/2013
Location
University Heights, OH US
Fantasy
2212th
12/18/2017 7:40am
They are already improving networks. Try to buy a reel of optical cable. The large telcos have bought out all of the major manufacturers for the...
They are already improving networks. Try to buy a reel of optical cable. The large telcos have bought out all of the major manufacturers for the next several years.
Im assuming these improvements you are speaking of were planned for the most part during the reign of NN?
bball35
Posts
326
Joined
11/20/2017
Location
Lexington, SC US
12/18/2017 8:53am
bball35 wrote:
I do because as long as their is competition in markets they will have to compete with others on price.
early wrote:
Well like i said I guess I am just a little more skeptical that the isp's will actually use the new power they have been granted...
Well like i said I guess I am just a little more skeptical that the isp's will actually use the new power they have been granted to improve service and not simply raise revenue so they can improve their stock price and purchase competitors.
I see and have read article after article on both sides. We can argue all day, but at the end of the day I guess we just have to wait and see. I'm a fan of less government interaction and you have expressed other views and that is fine.

You have expressed concerns that if they do take place I will not be happy. My thinking is that it will not happen and I feel that certain concerns have been blown out of the water by media outlets that hate anything Trump does.
early
Posts
8260
Joined
2/13/2013
Location
University Heights, OH US
Fantasy
2212th
12/18/2017 9:16am
bball35 wrote:
I see and have read article after article on both sides. We can argue all day, but at the end of the day I guess we...
I see and have read article after article on both sides. We can argue all day, but at the end of the day I guess we just have to wait and see. I'm a fan of less government interaction and you have expressed other views and that is fine.

You have expressed concerns that if they do take place I will not be happy. My thinking is that it will not happen and I feel that certain concerns have been blown out of the water by media outlets that hate anything Trump does.
Thats fair. It seems more companys are trying to be exclusive with their products/content recently with the beef between google and amazon and Disney starting their own streaming service and pulling their content from Netflix in the future among other things. Now there may be another layer of all that with isp exclusivity.
12/18/2017 9:18am
They are already improving networks. Try to buy a reel of optical cable. The large telcos have bought out all of the major manufacturers for the...
They are already improving networks. Try to buy a reel of optical cable. The large telcos have bought out all of the major manufacturers for the next several years.
early wrote:
Im assuming these improvements you are speaking of were planned for the most part during the reign of NN?
The improvements are based on competition and 5g. 5g requires a ton of fiber backhaul which makes an expansion of networks necessary. NN didn't have any bearing on this, network performance and availability is a competitive advantage.
ToolMaker
Posts
6101
Joined
11/19/2011
Location
Escondido, CA US
Fantasy
762nd
12/18/2017 10:05am
early wrote:
Well like i said I guess I am just a little more skeptical that the isp's will actually use the new power they have been granted...
Well like i said I guess I am just a little more skeptical that the isp's will actually use the new power they have been granted to improve service and not simply raise revenue so they can improve their stock price and purchase competitors.
Early, you seem to be in favor of regulation.
What if regulation came out the regulated the consumer instead?
Let's say 10GB per month so the users can't abuse the system?
Then us moderate users would have a nice small affordable bill every month.
Because of those pesky users that take advantage of the system couldn't anymore.
Are you still in favor of regulation or only when it's not you being regulated?
TM
early
Posts
8260
Joined
2/13/2013
Location
University Heights, OH US
Fantasy
2212th
12/18/2017 11:15am
ToolMaker wrote:
Early, you seem to be in favor of regulation. What if regulation came out the regulated the consumer instead? Let's say 10GB per month so the...
Early, you seem to be in favor of regulation.
What if regulation came out the regulated the consumer instead?
Let's say 10GB per month so the users can't abuse the system?
Then us moderate users would have a nice small affordable bill every month.
Because of those pesky users that take advantage of the system couldn't anymore.
Are you still in favor of regulation or only when it's not you being regulated?
TM
The thing is that today there may be heavy data users and light data users, but in the future everyones' usage will increase. The infrastructure needs to be put in place in order for the country to operate efficiently in the future. I understand that those that if you dont use as much internet bandwidth are not interested in paying for this improvement but it really is in their best interest.

Think of it like this. There is a 2 lane road between 2 cities 50 miles apart. Comcast road wants to build a highway between the 2 cities. They should be able to charge a toll on the highway to recoup the cost of building and maintaining. But, Comcast road just bought Chrysler in a firesale and so if you drive any vehicle other than a Chrysler, Comcast road can charge you a double price toll, or the speed limit is set 20 mph slower for Non-Chrysler vehicles. Now there are other options for the consumer but they are not as good. Flying to the next city is expensive, the old 2 lane is much slower. And its unlikely another company will come around to build another highway.

The new rules lay the groundwork for things like this to happen.

Also, my current isp offers 6 different levels of service according to the needs of the customer. If it is really such a big deal about heavy users clogging the internet i think there could be ways the burden could be distributed to the end consumer that could avoid the pitfalls of throwing out the rules completely.
ToolMaker
Posts
6101
Joined
11/19/2011
Location
Escondido, CA US
Fantasy
762nd
12/18/2017 11:34am
ToolMaker wrote:
Early, you seem to be in favor of regulation. What if regulation came out the regulated the consumer instead? Let's say 10GB per month so the...
Early, you seem to be in favor of regulation.
What if regulation came out the regulated the consumer instead?
Let's say 10GB per month so the users can't abuse the system?
Then us moderate users would have a nice small affordable bill every month.
Because of those pesky users that take advantage of the system couldn't anymore.
Are you still in favor of regulation or only when it's not you being regulated?
TM
early wrote:
The thing is that today there may be heavy data users and light data users, but in the future everyones' usage will increase. The infrastructure needs...
The thing is that today there may be heavy data users and light data users, but in the future everyones' usage will increase. The infrastructure needs to be put in place in order for the country to operate efficiently in the future. I understand that those that if you dont use as much internet bandwidth are not interested in paying for this improvement but it really is in their best interest.

Think of it like this. There is a 2 lane road between 2 cities 50 miles apart. Comcast road wants to build a highway between the 2 cities. They should be able to charge a toll on the highway to recoup the cost of building and maintaining. But, Comcast road just bought Chrysler in a firesale and so if you drive any vehicle other than a Chrysler, Comcast road can charge you a double price toll, or the speed limit is set 20 mph slower for Non-Chrysler vehicles. Now there are other options for the consumer but they are not as good. Flying to the next city is expensive, the old 2 lane is much slower. And its unlikely another company will come around to build another highway.

The new rules lay the groundwork for things like this to happen.

Also, my current isp offers 6 different levels of service according to the needs of the customer. If it is really such a big deal about heavy users clogging the internet i think there could be ways the burden could be distributed to the end consumer that could avoid the pitfalls of throwing out the rules completely.
You didn't answer the question.

Are you still in favor of regulation or only when it's not you being regulated?

TM
early
Posts
8260
Joined
2/13/2013
Location
University Heights, OH US
Fantasy
2212th
12/18/2017 11:37am
ToolMaker wrote:
You didn't answer the question.

Are you still in favor of regulation or only when it's not you being regulated?

TM
Your regulation is not analogous to what is actually happening. I am not a person that is in favor of regulation in general but recognize that there arenthings that need to be put in place to make the world work in the 21st century.
12/18/2017 11:46am Edited Date/Time 12/18/2017 11:48am
bball35 wrote:
I do because as long as their is competition in markets they will have to compete with others on price.
early wrote:
Well like i said I guess I am just a little more skeptical that the isp's will actually use the new power they have been granted...
Well like i said I guess I am just a little more skeptical that the isp's will actually use the new power they have been granted to improve service and not simply raise revenue so they can improve their stock price and purchase competitors.
Note to self. Buy stock in Comcast. Use dividend to subsidize my rising cable bill cost.


What about mandating internet police departments to handle the crime ? That should solve identity theft.
ToolMaker
Posts
6101
Joined
11/19/2011
Location
Escondido, CA US
Fantasy
762nd
12/18/2017 11:53am
People needing to watch NetFlix is not necessary to make the world work.
However one could just as easily argue that we should regulate the consumer
to keep things running smoothly if one believes regulation is the answer.
While I'm not against regulation in every aspect, I am against bad regulation.
In this case, I believe you're fighting to restore something that was bad.
TM
early
Posts
8260
Joined
2/13/2013
Location
University Heights, OH US
Fantasy
2212th
12/18/2017 12:14pm
ToolMaker wrote:
People needing to watch NetFlix is not necessary to make the world work. However one could just as easily argue that we should regulate the consumer...
People needing to watch NetFlix is not necessary to make the world work.
However one could just as easily argue that we should regulate the consumer
to keep things running smoothly if one believes regulation is the answer.
While I'm not against regulation in every aspect, I am against bad regulation.
In this case, I believe you're fighting to restore something that was bad.
TM
The main argument is not about Netflix, its about choice and the possiblilty that your choice of where to go to for online services can be compromised. With no regulations the isp is free to make exclusive deals with banks, search engines, email services, news outlets, retailers, social media outlets, music services, tv services, etc. The end result may be lower competition and higher prices for services that you do use even if you are not streaming netflix.
calcoast
Posts
498
Joined
10/11/2016
Location
Elk Grove, CA US
12/19/2017 12:51am
The reason net neutrality wasn’t an issue a few years ago was because the internet was very different just a few years ago. People weren’t watching youtube, Netflix, amazon prime etc.

There wasn’t really a need to regulate the internet like a utility. Now that everybody has high speed internet the government saw a need to regulate the internet like a utility.

I am in favor of net neutrality.

Does anybody remember when we literally gave these ISPs hundreds of billions of our tax dollars to build a fiber network across the US and they pocketed everything? Now we are supposed to take away more rules that keep them in Check?

Google tried to build a fiber network around the US and the ISPs fought and sued them every step of the way until Google basically gave up. So much for the free market...
12/19/2017 3:45am
calcoast wrote:
The reason net neutrality wasn’t an issue a few years ago was because the internet was very different just a few years ago. People weren’t watching...
The reason net neutrality wasn’t an issue a few years ago was because the internet was very different just a few years ago. People weren’t watching youtube, Netflix, amazon prime etc.

There wasn’t really a need to regulate the internet like a utility. Now that everybody has high speed internet the government saw a need to regulate the internet like a utility.

I am in favor of net neutrality.

Does anybody remember when we literally gave these ISPs hundreds of billions of our tax dollars to build a fiber network across the US and they pocketed everything? Now we are supposed to take away more rules that keep them in Check?

Google tried to build a fiber network around the US and the ISPs fought and sued them every step of the way until Google basically gave up. So much for the free market...
Google stopped building their network due to cost overruns. The same reason Verizon and ATT scaled back FiOs and Uverse. Net Nuetrality was passed 2 years ago the Internet hasn't changed much since 2015. It is not like 2015 was the dark ages.
kongols
Posts
23996
Joined
9/22/2009
Location
Riga LV
12/19/2017 4:04am Edited Date/Time 12/19/2017 4:08am
Here is what I think.
There is no competition in USA, few big is controlling everything. Prices are jacked up in everything. And FCC just gave them tools to screw you over even more. It`s all about profit for big corporations. I`m sorry for fools who (again) think that big corporations will cover costs from their profits. The same with tax brakes. Who in his right mind really thing that all that money will bounce to the average Joe?
ToolMaker
Posts
6101
Joined
11/19/2011
Location
Escondido, CA US
Fantasy
762nd
12/19/2017 7:36am
kongols wrote:
Here is what I think. There is no competition in USA, few big is controlling everything. Prices are jacked up in everything. And FCC just gave...
Here is what I think.
There is no competition in USA, few big is controlling everything. Prices are jacked up in everything. And FCC just gave them tools to screw you over even more. It`s all about profit for big corporations. I`m sorry for fools who (again) think that big corporations will cover costs from their profits. The same with tax brakes. Who in his right mind really thing that all that money will bounce to the average Joe?
It seems your opinions are highly influenced when Obama's name is attached to it, oh well...Wink
TM
akillerwombat
Posts
2006
Joined
10/16/2013
Location
Los Angeles, CA US
12/19/2017 7:56am
This thread is like talking to my schizophrenic aunt...

"Why do I have to still take my pills... I feel fine".
kongols
Posts
23996
Joined
9/22/2009
Location
Riga LV
12/19/2017 8:34am Edited Date/Time 12/19/2017 8:41am
kongols wrote:
Here is what I think. There is no competition in USA, few big is controlling everything. Prices are jacked up in everything. And FCC just gave...
Here is what I think.
There is no competition in USA, few big is controlling everything. Prices are jacked up in everything. And FCC just gave them tools to screw you over even more. It`s all about profit for big corporations. I`m sorry for fools who (again) think that big corporations will cover costs from their profits. The same with tax brakes. Who in his right mind really thing that all that money will bounce to the average Joe?
ToolMaker wrote:
It seems your opinions are highly influenced when Obama's name is attached to it, oh well...Wink
TM
No, it comes with the experience. We went through this back in 2004-2009. We elected very wealthy man as prime minister. He got rid or put in place bunch of laws. Only now, 10 years later, we see who benefited from them. He got his hand in everything- ports, central heating, electricity, real estate, waste management, renewable energy etc. And now everyday citizens see their bills higher by 10% and all of that money goes in to the pockets of selected few. Total rip off. And it`s all legal.
kongols
Posts
23996
Joined
9/22/2009
Location
Riga LV
12/19/2017 8:44am
He tried to get in to mobile, internet and digital TV, but wanted too much and got burned. There is criminal investigation still going on and millions and millions frozen in Malta bank. Taxpayer millions. Maybe that`s why internet, TV and mobile is so cheap here. There is real competition.
ToolMaker
Posts
6101
Joined
11/19/2011
Location
Escondido, CA US
Fantasy
762nd
12/19/2017 11:44am
kongols wrote:
Here is what I think. There is no competition in USA, few big is controlling everything. Prices are jacked up in everything. And FCC just gave...
Here is what I think.
There is no competition in USA, few big is controlling everything. Prices are jacked up in everything. And FCC just gave them tools to screw you over even more. It`s all about profit for big corporations. I`m sorry for fools who (again) think that big corporations will cover costs from their profits. The same with tax brakes. Who in his right mind really thing that all that money will bounce to the average Joe?
ToolMaker wrote:
It seems your opinions are highly influenced when Obama's name is attached to it, oh well...Wink
TM
kongols wrote:
No, it comes with the experience. We went through this back in 2004-2009. We elected very wealthy man as prime minister. He got rid or put...
No, it comes with the experience. We went through this back in 2004-2009. We elected very wealthy man as prime minister. He got rid or put in place bunch of laws. Only now, 10 years later, we see who benefited from them. He got his hand in everything- ports, central heating, electricity, real estate, waste management, renewable energy etc. And now everyday citizens see their bills higher by 10% and all of that money goes in to the pockets of selected few. Total rip off. And it`s all legal.
Actually just reposting your words to make an
example of how absurd it is when folks are
talking issues and you throw out
"it's because you don't like Obama"
Why stoop to that level?
TM
calcoast
Posts
498
Joined
10/11/2016
Location
Elk Grove, CA US
12/19/2017 12:23pm
Google stopped building their network due to cost overruns. The same reason Verizon and ATT scaled back FiOs and Uverse. Net Nuetrality was passed 2 years...
Google stopped building their network due to cost overruns. The same reason Verizon and ATT scaled back FiOs and Uverse. Net Nuetrality was passed 2 years ago the Internet hasn't changed much since 2015. It is not like 2015 was the dark ages.
Yes, it passed because the government had seen how important the internet was becoming in everybodies life. There wasn’t a need for net neutrality until streaming became extremely popular from like 2010 onwards. I view the net neutrality laws as a preventative measure.

When a small town is barely forming there is no real need for police as the town folk can mostly take care of problems on their own. As the small town grows into a bustling city there comes a time when a police force is needed to keep everything in check.

That’s how I basically view the net neutrality situation.
calcoast
Posts
498
Joined
10/11/2016
Location
Elk Grove, CA US
12/19/2017 12:28pm Edited Date/Time 12/19/2017 12:32pm
Also no one has brought up the millions of fake pro repeal comments and the FCC refusing to comply with the investigation into them.
ToolMaker
Posts
6101
Joined
11/19/2011
Location
Escondido, CA US
Fantasy
762nd
12/19/2017 4:27pm
Google stopped building their network due to cost overruns. The same reason Verizon and ATT scaled back FiOs and Uverse. Net Nuetrality was passed 2 years...
Google stopped building their network due to cost overruns. The same reason Verizon and ATT scaled back FiOs and Uverse. Net Nuetrality was passed 2 years ago the Internet hasn't changed much since 2015. It is not like 2015 was the dark ages.
calcoast wrote:
Yes, it passed because the government had seen how important the internet was becoming in everybodies life. There wasn’t a need for net neutrality until streaming...
Yes, it passed because the government had seen how important the internet was becoming in everybodies life. There wasn’t a need for net neutrality until streaming became extremely popular from like 2010 onwards. I view the net neutrality laws as a preventative measure.

When a small town is barely forming there is no real need for police as the town folk can mostly take care of problems on their own. As the small town grows into a bustling city there comes a time when a police force is needed to keep everything in check.

That’s how I basically view the net neutrality situation.
Yep, we all saw how great the outcome when they regulated health insurance.
Maybe we can get them to regulate gas prices too?
I don't think the interweb has been designated a "public utility" which would seem to be under a different umbrella.
But when you tell a company how they have to sell their product, are you not in effect regulating commerce? And if so, isn't congress the only one with authority to regulate commerce?
Just an odd thought.
akillerwombat
Posts
2006
Joined
10/16/2013
Location
Los Angeles, CA US
12/19/2017 5:06pm
ToolMaker wrote:
Yep, we all saw how great the outcome when they regulated health insurance. Maybe we can get them to regulate gas prices too? I don't think...
Yep, we all saw how great the outcome when they regulated health insurance.
Maybe we can get them to regulate gas prices too?
I don't think the interweb has been designated a "public utility" which would seem to be under a different umbrella.
But when you tell a company how they have to sell their product, are you not in effect regulating commerce? And if so, isn't congress the only one with authority to regulate commerce?
Just an odd thought.
... do you mean when the government stepped in to help upwards of 20 million people get healthcare that couldn't afford it otherwise?

Post a reply to: Net Neutrality Repeal

The Latest