Musk and Zuck on AI

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7/25/2017 7:29 AM

AI

Is this technology something to fear? There's a lot to ponder behind this question when you think about where this technology could go. Some of it is pretty out there like the "Hal" issue, which is less serious than all the sociological implications of it in my view.

I think about what has happened in the last 100 years. A great deal of it has to do with domestic chores. Just think about laundry. I spend 30 minutes a week on it. Maybe. Now consider how much time a woman with a large family spent in 1920. Hand washing every garment. Rinsing, wringing, pinning every one on wires outside and then taking them down. Many items needed ironing before folding or hanging. Just between Laundry and dishes, my mother probably spent 3 or more hours a DAY and we had an automatic washer. Everything had to be run through a hand wringer though before it went to the clothesline but this was in the late 50's and early 60's.

Just in the area of domestic chores, it presents many situations that have evolved. Back in the 50's and before, a housewife was a full time job. Now, the norm is for the wife to work outside the home. Just one aspect of this is what has happened to housing prices. Families with 2 incomes can afford to pay more that families with 1. This had the effect of increasing housing prices. Is this good, indifferent or bad? How has this effected child rearing? Babysitters, latchkey kids, divorce?

Does anybody have some good reading on this whole subject they can point me to?
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7/25/2017 7:56 AM

Superintelligence - Nick Bostrom

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7/25/2017 8:08 AM

I just heard something the other day that was interesting. I didn't get to hear the whole thing so it might be bullshit . Apparently they were able to send images of shapes to people's brains electronicly ? If that is true ,it's just the stepping stone to some crazy shit.

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7/25/2017 8:26 AM

I just want to know how many train cars full of coal it took to run the server farms for PayPal and Facebook before both these guys became billionaires. And how that gIves them the credentials to be social visionaries and environmental and climate experts. Especially Zuckerberg.
As far as AI I'm not a fan. I don't see a net positive from the internet, cell phones, and everything that came with it in the last few decades. And more AI will have negative effect on the average Joe I think.

They both say a universal income will be needed to replace lost jobs. I say if people think we have a crisis of drug addiction, obesity, crime, and parent less homes. Just wait until you take people's jobs and give them a monthly income.
The problem I see with guys like this is they see the truck drivers job as meaningless.

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7/25/2017 8:36 AM
Edited Date/Time: 7/25/2017 8:42 AM

MR. X wrote:

I just heard something the other day that was interesting. I didn't get to hear the whole thing so it might be bullshit . Apparently they were able to send images of shapes to people's brains electronicly ? If that is true ,it's just the stepping stone to some crazy shit.

Don't know about that but Google has some massive stuff going on behind that scenes that most of us have no idea about. Here is their 'vision explorer' that scans and identifies characteristics of every picture stored on google photos.

And you thought it was pretty nice of them to let you store all those pics for free... :-). Click on a pic on the left or just scroll into the universe of pics - click on a pic and it will identify characteristics.

http://vision-explorer.reactive.ai/#/?_k=m00926

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7/25/2017 9:44 AM

It will all somehow end up in a faster, more efficient way to separate you from your money, that's all.

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Braaapin' aint easy.

7/25/2017 10:51 AM

I've been following Musk's AI warnings for a while now and to be honest I have a hard time having the same level of concern that he has, but I also assume he knows a lot about it that I do not have insight into. If he does, I wish he would make that more known and educate us on the specific possibilities that he has in mind.

I mean so far the only point that I see him make is that we've made exponential progress in AI in 'x' amount of time and if that trend continues the machines will take over. I don't personally draw the same conclusion. What I do see from that trend continuing is good things, like truly autonomous cars, which I don't think we're too far away from.

On the other hand, I guess AI could be used in weapons systems and maybe that is where his concerns are. He has eluded to Google being his main current concern on the AI front. Wish I could get into his head and understand the basics of his concerns.

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7/25/2017 10:53 AM

SCR wrote:

I just want to know how many train cars full of coal it took to run the server farms for PayPal and Facebook before both these guys became billionaires. And how that gIves them the credentials to be social visionaries and environmental and climate experts. Especially Zuckerberg.
As far as AI I'm not a fan. I don't see a net positive from the internet, cell phones, and everything that came with it in the last few decades. And more AI will have negative effect on the average Joe I think.

They both say a universal income will be needed to replace lost jobs. I say if people think we have a crisis of drug addiction, obesity, crime, and parent less homes. Just wait until you take people's jobs and give them a monthly income.
The problem I see with guys like this is they see the truck drivers job as meaningless.

I think creating a social network in which 1 out of 7 people on earth use to connect to each other gives them some qualifications to be social visionaries. As far as not seeing a net positive from the internet, cell phones, and the subsequent technology that has stemmed from it – if you can't see the enormous impact this has had on every aspect of life – you're an outdated model.

That said – people like Musk and Zuckerberg, while they have their flaws, are people out there doing on a large scale in which will benefit them, yes, but the world as well. If you don't like what they're doing then find a way to put yourself in their position and contribute to ideas you believe in; like them no one is stopping you.

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7/25/2017 10:59 AM

XXVoid MainXX wrote:

I've been following Musk's AI warnings for a while now and to be honest I have a hard time having the same level of concern that he has, but I also assume he knows a lot about it that I do not have insight into. If he does, I wish he would make that more known and educate us on the specific possibilities that he has in mind.

I mean so far the only point that I see him make is that we've made exponential progress in AI in 'x' amount of time and if that trend continues the machines will take over. I don't personally draw the same conclusion. What I do see from that trend continuing is good things, like truly autonomous cars, which I don't think we're too far away from.

On the other hand, I guess AI could be used in weapons systems and maybe that is where his concerns are. He has eluded to Google being his main current concern on the AI front. Wish I could get into his head and understand the basics of his concerns.

From what I gather, one of his concerns is making humans obsolete, as in the work force. It's why he and Zuck are in favor of a universal income, or an income everybody gets automatically.

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7/25/2017 11:17 AM
Edited Date/Time: 7/25/2017 11:20 AM

XXVoid MainXX wrote:

I've been following Musk's AI warnings for a while now and to be honest I have a hard time having the same level of concern that he has, but I also assume he knows a lot about it that I do not have insight into. If he does, I wish he would make that more known and educate us on the specific possibilities that he has in mind.

I mean so far the only point that I see him make is that we've made exponential progress in AI in 'x' amount of time and if that trend continues the machines will take over. I don't personally draw the same conclusion. What I do see from that trend continuing is good things, like truly autonomous cars, which I don't think we're too far away from.

On the other hand, I guess AI could be used in weapons systems and maybe that is where his concerns are. He has eluded to Google being his main current concern on the AI front. Wish I could get into his head and understand the basics of his concerns.

borg wrote:

From what I gather, one of his concerns is making humans obsolete, as in the work force. It's why he and Zuck are in favor of a universal income, or an income everybody gets automatically.

The fact of the matter is that the world is only getting smaller and smaller and we have to start moving in a direction in which we accept it instead of sticking to this, "what is mine is mine so fuck you", mentality.

It will without a doubt take time to adjust to, and it will be a rocky transition, but in the end I believe it is better to embrace it early and get a head of the problem vs fighting it tooth and nail. It's cool to see places like Finland trying it out; will be interesting to see how it all plays out. I'm optimistic.

Edit:
Not sure this has been posted but, AI has already started developing it's own language: https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2017/06/artificial-intelligence-develops-its-own-non-human-language/530436/

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7/25/2017 11:49 AM

"What's mine is mine" will probably never go away in humans. That is, until we have somehow managed to make the "equality" so abundant that nobody has any desire for more. (A VERY tall order.)

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Braaapin' aint easy.

7/25/2017 11:58 AM

SCR wrote:

I just want to know how many train cars full of coal it took to run the server farms for PayPal and Facebook before both these guys became billionaires. And how that gIves them the credentials to be social visionaries and environmental and climate experts. Especially Zuckerberg.
As far as AI I'm not a fan. I don't see a net positive from the internet, cell phones, and everything that came with it in the last few decades. And more AI will have negative effect on the average Joe I think.

They both say a universal income will be needed to replace lost jobs. I say if people think we have a crisis of drug addiction, obesity, crime, and parent less homes. Just wait until you take people's jobs and give them a monthly income.
The problem I see with guys like this is they see the truck drivers job as meaningless.

akillerwombat wrote:

I think creating a social network in which 1 out of 7 people on earth use to connect to each other gives them some qualifications to be social visionaries. As far as not seeing a net positive from the internet, cell phones, and the subsequent technology that has stemmed from it – if you can't see the enormous impact this has had on every aspect of life – you're an outdated model.

That said – people like Musk and Zuckerberg, while they have their flaws, are people out there doing on a large scale in which will benefit them, yes, but the world as well. If you don't like what they're doing then find a way to put yourself in their position and contribute to ideas you believe in; like them no one is stopping you.

I didn't say it hasn't had an enormous impact. Clearly it has.
What's interesting to me is how most people welcome and purchase every new technology and idea as if it will make life easier and better. And many of the same people scream about the divide in income inequality even though the same technology is responsible for much of the income divide getting bigger.
I don't lose sleep over anything but I do fear when there is a real disruption in the financial system or public services like water and electricity because of hacking or a breakdown of networks. Hope I'm wrong but it's already happening and There doesn't seem to be very good defense against it.
Regardless, for better or worse it's all going to happen.

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7/25/2017 12:16 PM
Edited Date/Time: 7/25/2017 12:17 PM

Falcon wrote:

"What's mine is mine" will probably never go away in humans. That is, until we have somehow managed to make the "equality" so abundant that nobody has any desire for more. (A VERY tall order.)

Some of us are still more monkey than man.

If you look around the world there are plenty of examples of people putting the needs of many over themselves.

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7/25/2017 12:26 PM

XXVoid MainXX wrote:

I've been following Musk's AI warnings for a while now and to be honest I have a hard time having the same level of concern that he has, but I also assume he knows a lot about it that I do not have insight into. If he does, I wish he would make that more known and educate us on the specific possibilities that he has in mind.

I mean so far the only point that I see him make is that we've made exponential progress in AI in 'x' amount of time and if that trend continues the machines will take over. I don't personally draw the same conclusion. What I do see from that trend continuing is good things, like truly autonomous cars, which I don't think we're too far away from.

On the other hand, I guess AI could be used in weapons systems and maybe that is where his concerns are. He has eluded to Google being his main current concern on the AI front. Wish I could get into his head and understand the basics of his concerns.

borg wrote:

From what I gather, one of his concerns is making humans obsolete, as in the work force. It's why he and Zuck are in favor of a universal income, or an income everybody gets automatically.

akillerwombat wrote:

The fact of the matter is that the world is only getting smaller and smaller and we have to start moving in a direction in which we accept it instead of sticking to this, "what is mine is mine so fuck you", mentality.

It will without a doubt take time to adjust to, and it will be a rocky transition, but in the end I believe it is better to embrace it early and get a head of the problem vs fighting it tooth and nail. It's cool to see places like Finland trying it out; will be interesting to see how it all plays out. I'm optimistic.

Edit:
Not sure this has been posted but, AI has already started developing it's own language: https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2017/06/artificial-intelligence-develops-its-own-non-human-language/530436/

Accept it, adjust to it, rocky transition, get ahead of the problem.
Doesn't sound like something that's going to make my life better.
On the other hand looks like it's going to happen wether it makes life better or not. So maybe your on the right track.
All I know is what I know in my gut when I step back and see things over the last 50yrs. And I can say I'm not getting in a car with a computer driving it with a program written by a 24yr MIT grad wit no driving experience. And I won't be purchasing a robot to mow my lawn or take out the trash.

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7/25/2017 12:29 PM

You really want to take the stance – despite the fact that his business (and himself personally) has donated well over a billion dollars throughout its existence to various organizations, communities, charities, school systems, etc. – that he's not some noble humanitarian because you don't know if he lets people stay in his million dollar estates?

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7/25/2017 12:43 PM
Edited Date/Time: 7/25/2017 12:43 PM

SCR wrote:

Accept it, adjust to it, rocky transition, get ahead of the problem.
Doesn't sound like something that's going to make my life better.
On the other hand looks like it's going to happen wether it makes life better or not. So maybe your on the right track.
All I know is what I know in my gut when I step back and see things over the last 50yrs. And I can say I'm not getting in a car with a computer driving it with a program written by a 24yr MIT grad wit no driving experience. And I won't be purchasing a robot to mow my lawn or take out the trash.

"Doesn't sound like something that's going to make my life better."

And that is exactly why progress is so slow, like so many others you're only focused on the you and the now, and not what's good for those who will be on this earth long after you and I are gone.

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7/25/2017 12:44 PM

I think AI is going to eventually be one of the major factors that unravel the delicate modern world we live in, and I don't think there's a way to stop it. The ongoing development of tech is ravenous, and AI is just the next logical evolution of it. If it can do it cheaper and better why would you want to use human labor? Novelty?

With massive unemployment, and a bunch of humans with a bunch of time on their hands, it ain't gonna take long for something to go boom. We just got a high dolllar drone at work (engineering/mapping firm) and I got to say the thing is damn impressive, and their relatively new tech! I took one look at that thing transformer into flight mode, then hover, and take off at 60mph, and thought that it looked straight up like Skynet from terminator.

I could be pessimistic about it, but I'm not seeing the end result being too good.

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7/25/2017 1:06 PM

AI will be fine and will likely spawn entire industries that will need workers in that field. So those that get supplanted in one field can hopefully be trained and work in another field.

This is really no different then "computers". The first integrated circuit was created around 60 years ago and there were those who had similar complaints about being replaced and the same skepticism.

Well look where we are now.....

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7/25/2017 1:24 PM

The fundamental problem with AI is that is devalues the worth and spirit of man. The worth in that AI, machinery, robotics etc. replaces higher paying jobs with that of the minimum wage. The spirit in that work and accomplishment is a driving force for satisfaction and well being.

It's not too hard to argue that our children's generation as a whole may be the first to not have it as good as their parents. Globalization is to blame for a lot of that. Sure there will be good jobs but there will be fewer of them, with much of societies riches in the hands of a few. The 8 richest people have the same net worth as half the world - think about that, it's a cold realization - http://bit.ly/2tXbXJN.

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7/25/2017 2:26 PM

TXDirt wrote:

AI will be fine and will likely spawn entire industries that will need workers in that field. So those that get supplanted in one field can hopefully be trained and work in another field.

This is really no different then "computers". The first integrated circuit was created around 60 years ago and there were those who had similar complaints about being replaced and the same skepticism.

Well look where we are now.....

Well, the world population has doubled since then. And it's going to double again, and again etc even quicker.

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7/25/2017 3:45 PM

XXVoid MainXX wrote:

I've been following Musk's AI warnings for a while now and to be honest I have a hard time having the same level of concern that he has, but I also assume he knows a lot about it that I do not have insight into. If he does, I wish he would make that more known and educate us on the specific possibilities that he has in mind.

I mean so far the only point that I see him make is that we've made exponential progress in AI in 'x' amount of time and if that trend continues the machines will take over. I don't personally draw the same conclusion. What I do see from that trend continuing is good things, like truly autonomous cars, which I don't think we're too far away from.

On the other hand, I guess AI could be used in weapons systems and maybe that is where his concerns are. He has eluded to Google being his main current concern on the AI front. Wish I could get into his head and understand the basics of his concerns.

borg wrote:

From what I gather, one of his concerns is making humans obsolete, as in the work force. It's why he and Zuck are in favor of a universal income, or an income everybody gets automatically.

I can certainly see many jobs being lost but I didn't get the feeling that's what he is most worried about. I can't imagine that's what he's referring to regarding regulation. His vision of autonomous electric cars will definitely put a lot of people out of work. With full autonomy his vision is you'll be able to put your car to work when you aren't using it. If someone needs a car they'll just summons one up on their phone app and it will drive itself to their location and take them to where they need to go. They would get automatically billed for it, etc. No more need for taxi drivers or Uber drivers. Jiffy lube will be out of business. No oil changes necessary. I suspect there will be much less maintenance required on electric vehicles which means fewer mechanics. Etc, etc.

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7/25/2017 5:22 PM

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7/28/2017 8:02 AM

akillerwombat wrote:

The fact of the matter is that the world is only getting smaller and smaller and we have to start moving in a direction in which we accept it instead of sticking to this, "what is mine is mine so fuck you", mentality.

It will without a doubt take time to adjust to, and it will be a rocky transition, but in the end I believe it is better to embrace it early and get a head of the problem vs fighting it tooth and nail. It's cool to see places like Finland trying it out; will be interesting to see how it all plays out. I'm optimistic.

Edit:
Not sure this has been posted but, AI has already started developing it's own language: https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2017/06/artificial-intelligence-develops-its-own-non-human-language/530436/

SCR wrote:

Accept it, adjust to it, rocky transition, get ahead of the problem.
Doesn't sound like something that's going to make my life better.
On the other hand looks like it's going to happen wether it makes life better or not. So maybe your on the right track.
All I know is what I know in my gut when I step back and see things over the last 50yrs. And I can say I'm not getting in a car with a computer driving it with a program written by a 24yr MIT grad wit no driving experience. And I won't be purchasing a robot to mow my lawn or take out the trash.

akillerwombat wrote:

"Doesn't sound like something that's going to make my life better."

And that is exactly why progress is so slow, like so many others you're only focused on the you and the now, and not what's good for those who will be on this earth long after you and I are gone.

That's not what i get from what scr is saying. I think he seems very concerned about future generations just as you are. He is not saying what simply makes his life better, but life in general "it's going to happen wether it makes life better or not." From his perspective looking at the trend of these things over the past 50 years things are getting worse. I tend to agree with that idea.

From you perspective i assume you feel things are getting better, although it seems you may be eluding to the idea that they are in fact currently getting worse, but it will be for the better in the coming generation: sacrifice? If that is indeed the case then i am all for it, however as we see these things leading to ideas such as universal income my source for truth is throwing up some big warning signs:

Revelation 13:16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:

17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

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7/28/2017 9:19 AM

Anyone see Ex Machina? Thought provoking AI movie.

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7/28/2017 10:46 AM

All I know is today is the release date for the Model 3. Hope they get the AI in that thing improved significantly and rapidly so I can get one to drive me where I want to go.

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7/28/2017 5:18 PM

borg wrote:

From what I gather, one of his concerns is making humans obsolete, as in the work force. It's why he and Zuck are in favor of a universal income, or an income everybody gets automatically.

As a very lazy and poor person, count me in for this universal income.

It's only fair. Anyone who doesn't support this idea is discriminating against the poor and supporting income inequality.

Further, anyone who doesn't support it is also a racist since African Americans are over represented among the poor.

The country would be a much better place if everyone received the same income whether they work or not.

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