Mass Shooting in El Paso, Texas

JAFO92
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8/7/2019 5:34am
BMSOBx2 wrote:
Correct terms and specifications? Is there a technical manual for that? That's just what we need, an acceptable definition of what weapons are OK to kill...
Correct terms and specifications? Is there a technical manual for that? That's just what we need, an acceptable definition of what weapons are OK to kill people with so it doesn't offend your tender sensibilities or limit your ability to shoot feral pigs. You can Google search yourself to death but I don't think it makes a damn bit of difference to the victim's what what you call the weapon they were killed with. The Carnage goes on while we keep splitting hairs. We've passed lots of laws that have been neutered into irrelevance precisely because of those types of straw man arguments. What b*******.
Im so sorry to have tried to introduce rational suggestions and language into your emotion driven thought processes.

Your type cracks me up. You get all lathered up over one shooting incident like the other day and meanwhile in all those shithole inner cities across the county the body count is even higher, on a weekly basis, and you go on with your life like nothing is going on. Never even crosses your mind. You only have your knee-jerk reaction when the media puts it in front of your face and then Pavlov smiles from the grave as you guys predictably go off like a claymore.








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Beeby
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8/7/2019 5:36am
[i]people truly think what a gun is called by the press makes a difference[/i] They don't refer to a bolt action rifle as an assault rifle...
people truly think what a gun is called by the press makes a difference

They don't refer to a bolt action rifle as an assault rifle, or even a mini 14. So there clearly IS a difference to them.

Why wouldn't people want to define that so that they can understand what may come to be banned and why? I tried to answer this one on the previous page and probably butchered it a bit, but regardless the overall point is that it's only deemed important by gun owners because the media etc, seem to deem it important... There is actually a technical definition for an assault rifle but the media aren't applying it objectively to a firearms function (because true assault rifles are already mostly unobtainable, so they can't...) they're applying it subjectively to its aesthetics.

And that is a road you don't want to go down imo: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VpRTJ8hmCQY In short it doesn't make the slightest bit of difference what a firearm looks like but to the msm ^ that would probably qualify to as an assault rifle.

people truly think by banning guns in other countries the murders were replaced by other methods at the same rate?

It has in London/UK - not just with knives but also guns. As I previously mentioned in the last gun thread, gun crime actually went up sharply in the UK following the last major ban in 96/97, then down and now up again significantly over the last 3 - 4 yrs. With a couple of exceptions I'm also not aware of many countries banning firearms in recent times - obviously New Zealand is the most noticeable example recently (previously hadn't had a massacre since 1997), and there are smaller examples here and there like the Australian vid above.

Most of the firearms legal in America (with the exception of true assault rifles/full auto) are also legal to own in much of Europe and around the western world. What these countries do well though is vet people. That's the real difference.
Your part about the UK/London is incorrect. As were the ‘facts’ stated in the other thread.

Crime reports involving a gun went up after the UK brought in stricter gun laws but that included reports of toy guns, air rifles etc. Basically they had a box on a police report for gun and checked it if it included any type of report of a gun. They amended that and the reports of crimes with real guns dropped significantly.

- In the years before the act was commenced, Home Office statistics show that homicides involving firearms were 75 in 1993, the same in 1994, and 81 in 1995. Aside from spikes around the turn of the century, the subsequent years have all seen markedly lower gun-deaths recorded-

- For the past few years it has reported 20 deaths in 2014-15, 24 in 2015-16, 27 in 2016-17, and since 1 April this year, 15 deaths in England, Wales and Scotland. -

So gun deaths are in the twenties per year in the UK which has ~70M population. More than that died in the last week in the US in two incidents
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motogrady
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8/7/2019 5:36am
motogrady wrote:
Question for you.

Do you believe in one group of people giving up their right to defend their beliefs to another?
early wrote:
At the time the Constitution was written and ratified slaves were giving up their right to liberty because of the beliefs of their owners, the very...
At the time the Constitution was written and ratified slaves were giving up their right to liberty because of the beliefs of their owners, the very men who wrote the Constitution.
And that was wrong.

But you don't throw the baby out with the dishwater.
All in all, the founding fathers were right in their model of government imo.

And a way to keep the public on a somewhat even keel, with what they experienced with the redcoats was correct imo.
early
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8/7/2019 6:04am
motogrady wrote:
And that was wrong. But you don't throw the baby out with the dishwater. All in all, the founding fathers were right in their model of...
And that was wrong.

But you don't throw the baby out with the dishwater.
All in all, the founding fathers were right in their model of government imo.

And a way to keep the public on a somewhat even keel, with what they experienced with the redcoats was correct imo.
There is currently an arbitrary line of what arms are legal and what are not. The day will come when that line moves to the tighter side.

The right to life was violated for a bunch of people in El Paso , Dayton, California, Pittsburgh, Tennessee recently because of the beliefs of a few people.

All laws exist in an arbitrary balance of freedom and order, just ask the lady with broken tail light in the other thread.

The Shop

motogrady
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8/7/2019 6:19am
motogrady wrote:
And that was wrong. But you don't throw the baby out with the dishwater. All in all, the founding fathers were right in their model of...
And that was wrong.

But you don't throw the baby out with the dishwater.
All in all, the founding fathers were right in their model of government imo.

And a way to keep the public on a somewhat even keel, with what they experienced with the redcoats was correct imo.
early wrote:
There is currently an arbitrary line of what arms are legal and what are not. The day will come when that line moves to the tighter...
There is currently an arbitrary line of what arms are legal and what are not. The day will come when that line moves to the tighter side.

The right to life was violated for a bunch of people in El Paso , Dayton, California, Pittsburgh, Tennessee recently because of the beliefs of a few people.

All laws exist in an arbitrary balance of freedom and order, just ask the lady with broken tail light in the other thread.
Very true. You can't go out and buy a tommy gun.
Or a bazooka. Certain types of weapons have already been de facto outlawed.

But, for this situation to have developed, after what,
hundreds of years working, something else must have happened, or is happening.

What bothers me is the possibility a very important check on balance will vanish, because of what?
Some deranged kid influenced by some jerk that made millions designing a game like mortal combat?
borg
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8/7/2019 6:29am
borg wrote:
Are you aware that we have a Constitution including the 2nd amendment? Automatic weapons are already illegal. It is not lawful here to do a gun...
Are you aware that we have a Constitution including the 2nd amendment? Automatic weapons are already illegal. It is not lawful here to do a gun sweep and confiscate. What you did there is irrelevant here.
Many things have been done. Waiting periods, background checks, age limits, magazine limits. I already posted the link to all the gun laws that have been passed here so get off your bullshit position that we have done nothing and answer my question.
haydos25 wrote:
Yeah cool man. I'm aware of the second amendment. It was written 228 years ago. You think its still relevant in todays society given the current...
Yeah cool man. I'm aware of the second amendment. It was written 228 years ago. You think its still relevant in todays society given the current climate? You also think that if you have a couple of AR15 "non assault rifles" that they are going to help you overthrow a tyranical government? You think the government are being kept in check by your well armed militia? Maybe by the funding they get from the NRA but not because they are scared you're going to storm the white house if they act out of turn.

I also know the 2nd ammendment calls for a well regulated militia. Whos regulating it these days?

If you ask me maybe you need to revisit that amendment and look at amending it again. Trust me, life goes on without guns, its also pretty cool not having to buy your kids bulletproof backpacks before sending them off to school.

With the exception of one year, more people are killed in one day on our roads than are killed in a year from mass shootings. Where is the fist pounding to get rid of cars?

OK. I wanted an answer and you gave one. Finally.
Whether or not I support the 2nd amendment is irrelevant by the way.
Do a little research on what it would take to amend the Constitution with regards to the 2nd amendment and you will come to understand why I disregard your solution. Hopefully, in your research, you may also become disabused of your notion that nobody here cares or wants to do anything about the problem. If I got a little salty it's because I don't like being stuffed into a box, simply so you can argue with the box. Please don't make assumptions about what I think as so far, your batting average is below the Mendoza line.
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early
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8/7/2019 7:34am
borg wrote:
With the exception of one year, more people are killed in one day on our roads than are killed in a year from mass shootings. Where...

With the exception of one year, more people are killed in one day on our roads than are killed in a year from mass shootings. Where is the fist pounding to get rid of cars?

OK. I wanted an answer and you gave one. Finally.
Whether or not I support the 2nd amendment is irrelevant by the way.
Do a little research on what it would take to amend the Constitution with regards to the 2nd amendment and you will come to understand why I disregard your solution. Hopefully, in your research, you may also become disabused of your notion that nobody here cares or wants to do anything about the problem. If I got a little salty it's because I don't like being stuffed into a box, simply so you can argue with the box. Please don't make assumptions about what I think as so far, your batting average is below the Mendoza line.
The right to drive will be fought in the future. City centers will be the first places requiring automated transport, then it will radiate out from there. Left lane or HOV lane on highways will become AV (automated vehicle) lanes. This will reduce traffic fatalities and congestion in metros. The country will likely stay operator legal turf though. I expect this by 2050, barring a major world event.
Gworm
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8/7/2019 7:35am
I would bet money that a person could go into a Walmart with a 16oz straight claw Estwing hammer and kill as many people before being stopped as the guy in El Paso.

Ok, let’s ban hammers. Then they use screwdrivers. Ban them, they’ll use baseball bats. Ban them and they’ll use 2x4’s. Ban them and they’ll use rocks.

And on and on it goes. Whether it’s mental illness, or just bad behavior from having the crappy role models we have in society today, who knows.

I binged homicide rates, and the US is at 4.7 per 100,000 people which ranks at 111 on the list. The highest was Honduras at 90.4 per 100,000.

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Gworm
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8/7/2019 7:38am
early wrote:
The right to drive will be fought in the future. City centers will be the first places requiring automated transport, then it will radiate out from...
The right to drive will be fought in the future. City centers will be the first places requiring automated transport, then it will radiate out from there. Left lane or HOV lane on highways will become AV (automated vehicle) lanes. This will reduce traffic fatalities and congestion in metros. The country will likely stay operator legal turf though. I expect this by 2050, barring a major world event.
Automated vehicles will be hacked, killing millions.Better ban them, too. Let’s just walk, because we can’t even use the flatulent horses.
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early
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8/7/2019 7:40am Edited Date/Time 8/7/2019 7:41am
Gworm wrote:
Automated vehicles will be hacked, killing millions.Better ban them, too. Let’s just walk, because we can’t even use the flatulent horses.
How is your internet connected bank account and 401k doing? Also the car was invented because people were tired of smelling horse shit.
Gworm
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8/7/2019 7:47am
Gworm wrote:
Automated vehicles will be hacked, killing millions.Better ban them, too. Let’s just walk, because we can’t even use the flatulent horses.
early wrote:
How is your internet connected bank account and 401k doing? Also the car was invented because people were tired of smelling horse shit.
Mine’s not worth getting the attention of a hacker .

But do you not think it could be done?

early
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8/7/2019 7:55am
Gworm wrote:
Mine’s not worth getting the attention of a hacker .

But do you not think it could be done?

Yes, it could be done, automated driving is also not ready yet, but 30 years from now it will probably be a different story. I suspect there may be a set of cameras/sensors/lidar and processor that is air gapped and not connected to the internet as a backup that is local to the vehicle only.
Gworm
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8/7/2019 8:07am
As long as we are speculating on the future, I believe in 30 years there will be three hairless freaks lying in a pool of water, hooked up to computers, that let us know when anyone is going to commit a crime, thereby makeong this whole discussion pointless.

Maybe they should make a movie about that.
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Rooster
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8/7/2019 9:44am
borg wrote:
[i]You guys want an answer on how to reduce these events? Get guns out of the hands of those that shouldn't have them. Make them tougher...
You guys want an answer on how to reduce these events? Get guns out of the hands of those that shouldn't have them. Make them tougher to get and tougher to hang on to after you've done something wrong or threatening.

How?


Make guns tougher to access than mental health care.
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8/7/2019 9:45am Edited Date/Time 8/7/2019 9:50am
Beeby wrote:
Your part about the UK/London is incorrect. As were the ‘facts’ stated in the other thread. Crime reports involving a gun went up after the UK...
Your part about the UK/London is incorrect. As were the ‘facts’ stated in the other thread.

Crime reports involving a gun went up after the UK brought in stricter gun laws but that included reports of toy guns, air rifles etc. Basically they had a box on a police report for gun and checked it if it included any type of report of a gun. They amended that and the reports of crimes with real guns dropped significantly.

- In the years before the act was commenced, Home Office statistics show that homicides involving firearms were 75 in 1993, the same in 1994, and 81 in 1995. Aside from spikes around the turn of the century, the subsequent years have all seen markedly lower gun-deaths recorded-

- For the past few years it has reported 20 deaths in 2014-15, 24 in 2015-16, 27 in 2016-17, and since 1 April this year, 15 deaths in England, Wales and Scotland. -

So gun deaths are in the twenties per year in the UK which has ~70M population. More than that died in the last week in the US in two incidents
To the very last point I'm not comparing the UK to the U.S in that way because it's pointless. I don't deny that America has a problem with gun crime (who would) and I also don't deny that certain forms of gun control work very well. I very much believe in the vetting process but have little to no faith in the bans, and absolutely zero faith in the apparent obsession in some quarters over firearm aesthetics. Attempting to retrospectively apply what works in other countries to modern day America is also a whole different challenge altogether...

In the years before the act was commenced, Home Office statistics show that homicides involving firearms were 75 in 1993, the same in 1994, and 81 in 1995. Aside from spikes around the turn of the century, the subsequent years have all seen markedly lower gun-deaths recorded

I can't help wonder whether some of those numbers were contributed to by The Troubles. Would love the link?

https://crimeresearch.org/2016/04/murder-and-homicide-rates-before-and-…

Even aside the spike largely generated by the serial killer Harold Shipman in 2003, according to that source the homicide rate was still on the rise for a roughly 10 yr period following the ban. The firearm homicide graph also roughly coincides with that trend. It seems likely that an increase in police numbers and more advanced forensic techniques etc with regard to serious crime prevention helped lower those numbers in subsequent yrs; 2004 and onward to 2010.

And lastly, please keep in mind that of the gun crime that did take place, prior to and post the handgun ban - only a tiny tiny percentage of that involves the use of legally owned firearms. Hence my championing of the vetting process.

For the past few years it has reported 20 deaths in 2014-15, 24 in 2015-16, 27 in 2016-17, and since 1 April this year, 15 deaths in England, Wales and Scotland

Yes, gun crime is up, as is knife crime and violent offences. This once again roughly coincides with a drop in police numbers.

BMSOBx2
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8/7/2019 10:12am
BMSOBx2 wrote:
Correct terms and specifications? Is there a technical manual for that? That's just what we need, an acceptable definition of what weapons are OK to kill...
Correct terms and specifications? Is there a technical manual for that? That's just what we need, an acceptable definition of what weapons are OK to kill people with so it doesn't offend your tender sensibilities or limit your ability to shoot feral pigs. You can Google search yourself to death but I don't think it makes a damn bit of difference to the victim's what what you call the weapon they were killed with. The Carnage goes on while we keep splitting hairs. We've passed lots of laws that have been neutered into irrelevance precisely because of those types of straw man arguments. What b*******.
JAFO92 wrote:
Im so sorry to have tried to introduce rational suggestions and language into your emotion driven thought processes. Your type cracks me up. You get all...
Im so sorry to have tried to introduce rational suggestions and language into your emotion driven thought processes.

Your type cracks me up. You get all lathered up over one shooting incident like the other day and meanwhile in all those shithole inner cities across the county the body count is even higher, on a weekly basis, and you go on with your life like nothing is going on. Never even crosses your mind. You only have your knee-jerk reaction when the media puts it in front of your face and then Pavlov smiles from the grave as you guys predictably go off like a claymore.








I would say that the knee-jerk reactions are the predictability of "your type" trying to explain away one more "shooting incident" as you so blithely put it, by equating it to inner cities body counts as if that makes any of it okay. Your argument is akin to the old schoolyard "but teacher he did it too". You will not be part of the solution.
early
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8/7/2019 10:53am
early wrote:
If 2A diehards and the NRA had any sense their position would be "if you see something say something" in regards to mass shooting signs before...
If 2A diehards and the NRA had any sense their position would be "if you see something say something" in regards to mass shooting signs before they happen. Mass shootings are the biggest threat to 2A and there should be an awareness by "gun people" to address this "internally".
JAFO92
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8/7/2019 11:07am
Rooster wrote:
Make guns tougher to access than mental health care.
Or at a minimum make mental health care as easy or even easier to access than guns.
JAFO92
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8/7/2019 11:20am
BMSOBx2 wrote:
I would say that the knee-jerk reactions are the predictability of "your type" trying to explain away one more "shooting incident" as you so blithely put...
I would say that the knee-jerk reactions are the predictability of "your type" trying to explain away one more "shooting incident" as you so blithely put it, by equating it to inner cities body counts as if that makes any of it okay. Your argument is akin to the old schoolyard "but teacher he did it too". You will not be part of the solution.
Not trying to explain away anything. Im well aware of the flaws of human beings and anyone whos read what Ive been posting for almost 20 years on these boards will tell you that Im no fan of homo sapien and the horrors we perform. my point was only the selective outrage from a certain part of the populace and perspective. My conclusions come for accurate observation and going on 40 years with one foot in the funeral bizness and have dealt with death more than you can even understand.

Oh, and I never said I was part of any solutions. Ive said many times, c'mon Big Meteor and do your job already.
BMSOBx2
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8/7/2019 2:59pm
JAFO92 wrote:
Not trying to explain away anything. Im well aware of the flaws of human beings and anyone whos read what Ive been posting for almost 20...
Not trying to explain away anything. Im well aware of the flaws of human beings and anyone whos read what Ive been posting for almost 20 years on these boards will tell you that Im no fan of homo sapien and the horrors we perform. my point was only the selective outrage from a certain part of the populace and perspective. My conclusions come for accurate observation and going on 40 years with one foot in the funeral bizness and have dealt with death more than you can even understand.

Oh, and I never said I was part of any solutions. Ive said many times, c'mon Big Meteor and do your job already.
I've been posting for more than 20 years on these boards going back to Fresh dirt and the earliest days of MD. From my perspective you're a bit of a newbie. While I haven't had one foot in the grave for over 40 years like you I have been to war so I am somewhat familiar with death and destruction on a personal level. So you'll forgive me if I fail to be impressed by your self professed qualifications. As far as Solutions go, since you have none, remember what they say.......If you are not part of the solution you're part of the problem.
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Beeby
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8/7/2019 3:30pm
borg wrote:
Are you aware that we have a Constitution including the 2nd amendment? Automatic weapons are already illegal. It is not lawful here to do a gun...
Are you aware that we have a Constitution including the 2nd amendment? Automatic weapons are already illegal. It is not lawful here to do a gun sweep and confiscate. What you did there is irrelevant here.
Many things have been done. Waiting periods, background checks, age limits, magazine limits. I already posted the link to all the gun laws that have been passed here so get off your bullshit position that we have done nothing and answer my question.
haydos25 wrote:
Yeah cool man. I'm aware of the second amendment. It was written 228 years ago. You think its still relevant in todays society given the current...
Yeah cool man. I'm aware of the second amendment. It was written 228 years ago. You think its still relevant in todays society given the current climate? You also think that if you have a couple of AR15 "non assault rifles" that they are going to help you overthrow a tyranical government? You think the government are being kept in check by your well armed militia? Maybe by the funding they get from the NRA but not because they are scared you're going to storm the white house if they act out of turn.

I also know the 2nd ammendment calls for a well regulated militia. Whos regulating it these days?

If you ask me maybe you need to revisit that amendment and look at amending it again. Trust me, life goes on without guns, its also pretty cool not having to buy your kids bulletproof backpacks before sending them off to school.
borg wrote:
With the exception of one year, more people are killed in one day on our roads than are killed in a year from mass shootings. Where...

With the exception of one year, more people are killed in one day on our roads than are killed in a year from mass shootings. Where is the fist pounding to get rid of cars?

OK. I wanted an answer and you gave one. Finally.
Whether or not I support the 2nd amendment is irrelevant by the way.
Do a little research on what it would take to amend the Constitution with regards to the 2nd amendment and you will come to understand why I disregard your solution. Hopefully, in your research, you may also become disabused of your notion that nobody here cares or wants to do anything about the problem. If I got a little salty it's because I don't like being stuffed into a box, simply so you can argue with the box. Please don't make assumptions about what I think as so far, your batting average is below the Mendoza line.
That cars kill people too line is so ridiculous it’s alarming. Thankfully this week someone else went to the effort of explaining why so I don’t have to


https://youtu.be/rvPRaxR7HOE
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haydos25
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8/7/2019 4:54pm
borg wrote:
With the exception of one year, more people are killed in one day on our roads than are killed in a year from mass shootings. Where...

With the exception of one year, more people are killed in one day on our roads than are killed in a year from mass shootings. Where is the fist pounding to get rid of cars?

OK. I wanted an answer and you gave one. Finally.
Whether or not I support the 2nd amendment is irrelevant by the way.
Do a little research on what it would take to amend the Constitution with regards to the 2nd amendment and you will come to understand why I disregard your solution. Hopefully, in your research, you may also become disabused of your notion that nobody here cares or wants to do anything about the problem. If I got a little salty it's because I don't like being stuffed into a box, simply so you can argue with the box. Please don't make assumptions about what I think as so far, your batting average is below the Mendoza line.
You're disregarding amending the 2nd amendment because its to difficult to change?

I apologise if it came across like i was suggesting nobody cared about the thousands of gun related deaths each year, obviously thats not the case. However from an outsiders point of view, more people care about the rights of gun owners than the lives of your citizens that are being cut down by gun crime.

I'm not suggesting no guns, thats not realistic at all, i'm suggesting tighter regulations on gun ownership. Licences, limits to quantity, type and storage of those weapons. We have guns here, i have guns personally. I'm licenced, the guns are registered, and stored in a fit for purpose gun safe. It's not as hard as everyone makes out. Mindset and culture needs to change for it to work, and i understand that it wont be as simple for you guys as it was here, but something needs to change.

Do you not agree or are you happy with the status quo?
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ns503
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8/7/2019 5:13pm
Here's an interesting thought. If I can do the link thing:

Link
RONJ OSE
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8/7/2019 5:24pm
ns503 wrote:
Here's an interesting thought. If I can do the link thing:

Link
That’s dumb what if I’m 80 and want a handgun?
I have to enlist in the national guard, how about all the guns out there now are you going to collect them?
haydos25
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8/7/2019 5:32pm
RONJ OSE wrote:
That’s dumb what if I’m 80 and want a handgun? I have to enlist in the national guard, how about all the guns out there now...
That’s dumb what if I’m 80 and want a handgun?
I have to enlist in the national guard, how about all the guns out there now are you going to collect them?
What are you using a handgun for? Just curious

Make them illegal without a permit. Open up a gun amnesty and buy back for people to surrender weapons. It can work and has worked in other places. Culture and attitude towards guns needs to change first though.
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ns503
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8/7/2019 5:44pm
ns503 wrote:
Here's an interesting thought. If I can do the link thing:

Link
RONJ OSE wrote:
That’s dumb what if I’m 80 and want a handgun? I have to enlist in the national guard, how about all the guns out there now...
That’s dumb what if I’m 80 and want a handgun?
I have to enlist in the national guard, how about all the guns out there now are you going to collect them?

Then you're not capable of being part of a well regulated militia.

That the Constitution calls for.
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SEEMEFIRST
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8/7/2019 5:45pm
motogrady wrote:
Very true. You can't go out and buy a tommy gun. Or a bazooka. Certain types of weapons have already been de facto outlawed. But, for...
Very true. You can't go out and buy a tommy gun.
Or a bazooka. Certain types of weapons have already been de facto outlawed.

But, for this situation to have developed, after what,
hundreds of years working, something else must have happened, or is happening.

What bothers me is the possibility a very important check on balance will vanish, because of what?
Some deranged kid influenced by some jerk that made millions designing a game like mortal combat?
Yes, you can go buy a Tommy gun.
All you need is about $300.00 ,and some time.

Once you've been cleared for an FFL, you can buy all kinds of stuff.
RONJ OSE
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8/7/2019 5:51pm
ns503 wrote:
Here's an interesting thought. If I can do the link thing:

Link
RONJ OSE wrote:
That’s dumb what if I’m 80 and want a handgun? I have to enlist in the national guard, how about all the guns out there now...
That’s dumb what if I’m 80 and want a handgun?
I have to enlist in the national guard, how about all the guns out there now are you going to collect them?
ns503 wrote:

Then you're not capable of being part of a well regulated militia.

That the Constitution calls for.
Ok buddy 4 years in the core good enough??
And who said that the milita to be national Guard or active duty that just brings the government into the milita
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