Mass Shooting in El Paso, Texas

Beeby
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8/6/2019 6:46am
America is on the whole addicted to guns. People genuinely fear them being ‘taken away’. People talk about the 2nd amendment like it’s their only defence against the government (still).

I said it on the thread the other day. Countries with less guns have less gun crime. Other countries have successfully reduced or banned guns. Those are facts.

If America wants a world where someone (a good person) can carry their loaded gun into Walmart (which there is zero reason to do) then you have to stop complaining when people are massacred.
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LoudLove
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8/6/2019 8:02am
The 2nd Amendment revolves around the concept of an armed civilian population defending the rights and sovereignty of the United States from enemies "both foreign and domestic". At its core, the 2nd Amendment's intent is to protect the life & liberty of the citizenry, which in 1789 required the people to "bear arms".

Unfortunately the amendment now accomplishes the opposite, due to the mass production and proliferation of highly lethal weaponry. Over time the 2nd Amendment's purpose morphed from "protecting rights" to "gun ownership", which are two entirely different things. Unrestrained, the US has reached a point of critical mass, as a nationwide recall would negatively impact responsible gun owners (although we can and should take steps to manage future sales & distribution).

When the answer to a problem is "more guns in the hands of more people", we may have passed the point of no return.

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Gworm
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8/6/2019 8:06am
There is zero reason to carry a gun anywhere... just get the bad guys to agree, and I’m good with that.
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mxb2
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8/6/2019 8:11am
Gworm wrote:
There is zero reason to carry a gun anywhere... just get the bad guys to agree, and I’m good with that.
Go to south baltimore about 2am and tell them that. See how that works out.

The Shop

Gworm
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8/6/2019 8:13am
Gworm wrote:
There is zero reason to carry a gun anywhere... just get the bad guys to agree, and I’m good with that.
mxb2 wrote:
Go to south baltimore about 2am and tell them that. See how that works out.
My sarcasm didn’t show.
71Fish
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8/6/2019 8:32am
Beeby wrote:
America is on the whole addicted to guns. People genuinely fear them being ‘taken away’. People talk about the 2nd amendment like it’s their only defence...
America is on the whole addicted to guns. People genuinely fear them being ‘taken away’. People talk about the 2nd amendment like it’s their only defence against the government (still).

I said it on the thread the other day. Countries with less guns have less gun crime. Other countries have successfully reduced or banned guns. Those are facts.

If America wants a world where someone (a good person) can carry their loaded gun into Walmart (which there is zero reason to do) then you have to stop complaining when people are massacred.
That's a good point whether people want to admit it or not. It's like legalized weed. Whether you're for it or against it doesn't matter, but no one should be surprised when there is an uptick in impaired driving arrests. I'll bet during prohibition DUI arrests were significantly lower than today.
colintrax
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8/6/2019 8:39am
Casting wrote:
People with a mental health diagnosis are more likely to be the victim of a violent crime than the perpetrators. Blaming mental illness is a way...
People with a mental health diagnosis are more likely to be the victim of a violent crime than the perpetrators.

Blaming mental illness is a way of kicking the can.

If you read through the research there isn't much in the way of evidence linking mental illness to mass shooters. You can be someone who kills people and yet not have a mental health diagnosis.

I promise this is a great way of scaring people away from treatment... I had a guy refuse to talk about if he thought he had a concussion because he was convinced I would take his guns or that I would have someone take his guns.... and this was over a concussion, not even a mental health issue.
Anyone who goes killing a group of random people is mentally ill. Idgaf what the medical community says, something is not right in these peoples brain. We need to get Medicare for all so everyone can see a therapist and we need a culture change to make seeing therapists a normal thing.
Your personal anicidont is one overly paranoid dude, who probably needs to talk to someone more than most.
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Beeby
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8/6/2019 8:39am
LoudLove wrote:
The 2nd Amendment revolves around the concept of an armed civilian population defending the rights and sovereignty of the United States from enemies "both foreign and...
The 2nd Amendment revolves around the concept of an armed civilian population defending the rights and sovereignty of the United States from enemies "both foreign and domestic". At its core, the 2nd Amendment's intent is to protect the life & liberty of the citizenry, which in 1789 required the people to "bear arms".

Unfortunately the amendment now accomplishes the opposite, due to the mass production and proliferation of highly lethal weaponry. Over time the 2nd Amendment's purpose morphed from "protecting rights" to "gun ownership", which are two entirely different things. Unrestrained, the US has reached a point of critical mass, as a nationwide recall would negatively impact responsible gun owners (although we can and should take steps to manage future sales & distribution).

When the answer to a problem is "more guns in the hands of more people", we may have passed the point of no return.

I am not aware that these crazy people with guns have been stopped by anyone with a gun (other than those in law enforcement) yet have they? I.e. lots of people with guns already and not a lot of protection or prevention going on...
colintrax
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8/6/2019 8:45am
71Fish wrote:
That's a good point whether people want to admit it or not. It's like legalized weed. Whether you're for it or against it doesn't matter, but...
That's a good point whether people want to admit it or not. It's like legalized weed. Whether you're for it or against it doesn't matter, but no one should be surprised when there is an uptick in impaired driving arrests. I'll bet during prohibition DUI arrests were significantly lower than today.
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RONJ OSE
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8/6/2019 8:48am Edited Date/Time 8/6/2019 8:49am
LoudLove wrote:
The 2nd Amendment revolves around the concept of an armed civilian population defending the rights and sovereignty of the United States from enemies "both foreign and...
The 2nd Amendment revolves around the concept of an armed civilian population defending the rights and sovereignty of the United States from enemies "both foreign and domestic". At its core, the 2nd Amendment's intent is to protect the life & liberty of the citizenry, which in 1789 required the people to "bear arms".

Unfortunately the amendment now accomplishes the opposite, due to the mass production and proliferation of highly lethal weaponry. Over time the 2nd Amendment's purpose morphed from "protecting rights" to "gun ownership", which are two entirely different things. Unrestrained, the US has reached a point of critical mass, as a nationwide recall would negatively impact responsible gun owners (although we can and should take steps to manage future sales & distribution).

When the answer to a problem is "more guns in the hands of more people", we may have passed the point of no return.

Beeby wrote:
I am not aware that these crazy people with guns have been stopped by anyone with a gun (other than those in law enforcement) yet have...
I am not aware that these crazy people with guns have been stopped by anyone with a gun (other than those in law enforcement) yet have they? I.e. lots of people with guns already and not a lot of protection or prevention going on...
colintrax
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8/6/2019 8:52am
Beeby wrote:
I am not aware that these crazy people with guns have been stopped by anyone with a gun (other than those in law enforcement) yet have...
I am not aware that these crazy people with guns have been stopped by anyone with a gun (other than those in law enforcement) yet have they? I.e. lots of people with guns already and not a lot of protection or prevention going on...
LoudLove
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8/6/2019 8:55am
Casting wrote:
People with a mental health diagnosis are more likely to be the victim of a violent crime than the perpetrators. Blaming mental illness is a way...
People with a mental health diagnosis are more likely to be the victim of a violent crime than the perpetrators.

Blaming mental illness is a way of kicking the can.

If you read through the research there isn't much in the way of evidence linking mental illness to mass shooters. You can be someone who kills people and yet not have a mental health diagnosis.

I promise this is a great way of scaring people away from treatment... I had a guy refuse to talk about if he thought he had a concussion because he was convinced I would take his guns or that I would have someone take his guns.... and this was over a concussion, not even a mental health issue.
colintrax wrote:
Anyone who goes killing a group of random people is mentally ill. Idgaf what the medical community says, something is not right in these peoples brain...
Anyone who goes killing a group of random people is mentally ill. Idgaf what the medical community says, something is not right in these peoples brain. We need to get Medicare for all so everyone can see a therapist and we need a culture change to make seeing therapists a normal thing.
Your personal anicidont is one overly paranoid dude, who probably needs to talk to someone more than most.
Let's assume 100% of the population has access, and takes advantage of, therapy. Then what? Based upon a diagnosis (which will vary wildly from therapist to therapist), will the US take steps to proactively suspend a person's rights? It's very difficult to predict the future based upon somewhat random observations and test scores.

Other Western nations are not immune from mental illness, yet their homicide rates are 3-5X+ lower than ours, and while mass shootings do take place (Paris, Christchurch), they are freak occurrences. Compared side-by-side, the metrics of the US, Germany, France, the UK, etc. are very similar, with one glaring difference...
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colintrax
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8/6/2019 9:21am Edited Date/Time 8/6/2019 9:22am
LoudLove wrote:
Let's assume 100% of the population has access, and takes advantage of, therapy. Then what? Based upon a diagnosis (which will vary wildly from therapist to...
Let's assume 100% of the population has access, and takes advantage of, therapy. Then what? Based upon a diagnosis (which will vary wildly from therapist to therapist), will the US take steps to proactively suspend a person's rights? It's very difficult to predict the future based upon somewhat random observations and test scores.

Other Western nations are not immune from mental illness, yet their homicide rates are 3-5X+ lower than ours, and while mass shootings do take place (Paris, Christchurch), they are freak occurrences. Compared side-by-side, the metrics of the US, Germany, France, the UK, etc. are very similar, with one glaring difference...
I never said anything about taking peoples rights. Everyone ought to see a therapist to talk out there shit.

Maybe if lived a country where both parents had to work 50 hours a week kids might grow up to be better adults. But I'm sure more tax cuts for the ultra wealthy will fix that issue. Top-down right?
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mxb2
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8/6/2019 9:33am
Gworm wrote:
There is zero reason to carry a gun anywhere... just get the bad guys to agree, and I’m good with that.
mxb2 wrote:
Go to south baltimore about 2am and tell them that. See how that works out.
Gworm wrote:
My sarcasm didn’t show.
Believe it not, some people believe what you said.
Casting
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8/6/2019 10:03am
Casting wrote:
People with a mental health diagnosis are more likely to be the victim of a violent crime than the perpetrators. Blaming mental illness is a way...
People with a mental health diagnosis are more likely to be the victim of a violent crime than the perpetrators.

Blaming mental illness is a way of kicking the can.

If you read through the research there isn't much in the way of evidence linking mental illness to mass shooters. You can be someone who kills people and yet not have a mental health diagnosis.

I promise this is a great way of scaring people away from treatment... I had a guy refuse to talk about if he thought he had a concussion because he was convinced I would take his guns or that I would have someone take his guns.... and this was over a concussion, not even a mental health issue.
colintrax wrote:
Anyone who goes killing a group of random people is mentally ill. Idgaf what the medical community says, something is not right in these peoples brain...
Anyone who goes killing a group of random people is mentally ill. Idgaf what the medical community says, something is not right in these peoples brain. We need to get Medicare for all so everyone can see a therapist and we need a culture change to make seeing therapists a normal thing.
Your personal anicidont is one overly paranoid dude, who probably needs to talk to someone more than most.
You "don't give a fuck" what the medical community says, yet you want Medicare for all so that everyone is in therapy with this same medical community that you do not seem to trust?

Makes sense.


Ever hear of an old person who refuses to see a doctor because they are worried about losing a drivers licence? Yeah - the same thing happens with guns -- except people don't often name the reason for fear that their will be repercussions. Patients tend to think "if I say i'm worried about losing my guns, they will definitely take them, so I just better not say anything at all" thus people avoid treatment.

Blaming mental illness just further stigmatizes a community that is already facing an uphill battle.
early
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8/6/2019 10:15am
Casting wrote:
You "don't give a fuck" what the medical community says, yet you want Medicare for all so that everyone is in therapy with this same medical...
You "don't give a fuck" what the medical community says, yet you want Medicare for all so that everyone is in therapy with this same medical community that you do not seem to trust?

Makes sense.


Ever hear of an old person who refuses to see a doctor because they are worried about losing a drivers licence? Yeah - the same thing happens with guns -- except people don't often name the reason for fear that their will be repercussions. Patients tend to think "if I say i'm worried about losing my guns, they will definitely take them, so I just better not say anything at all" thus people avoid treatment.

Blaming mental illness just further stigmatizes a community that is already facing an uphill battle.
These last 3 guys in California, Texas, and Ohio knew exactly what they were doing. Why does noone blame mental illness when an attack is carried out in the name of ISIS?
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Casting
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8/6/2019 10:35am
early wrote:
These last 3 guys in California, Texas, and Ohio knew exactly what they were doing. Why does noone blame mental illness when an attack is carried...
These last 3 guys in California, Texas, and Ohio knew exactly what they were doing. Why does noone blame mental illness when an attack is carried out in the name of ISIS?
Hm, good question.

My guess is because it's just as big of a headline and attention grabber to blame Islam and extremist religions.

People feel better when they categorize the deviant members of society into groups they do not personally belong to.

It's rare to find someone that just says the issue is with people in general. We as humans externalize our problem so we do not have to bare the emotional burden of knowing we dug our own grave.

George Carlin has a great joke about this where he says something like "People say we have to save the planet and that it's fucked. The planet is fine, it doesn't need saving. It's the people that are fucked"

Gun are not the issue, mental health is not the issue, religion is not the issue. People are the issue. There have been killers and awful humans for as long as humans have existed. For thousands of years we as humans have found ever more clever and fucked up ways to kill each other, guns are just the newest trend. Our grandchildren will unfortunately be alive to see what trend takes over after this.
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early
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8/6/2019 10:44am
If 2A diehards and the NRA had any sense their position would be "if you see something say something" in regards to mass shooting signs before they happen. Mass shootings are the biggest threat to 2A and there should be an awareness by "gun people" to address this "internally".
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LoudLove
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8/6/2019 10:57am
The NRA should take proactive steps in supporting tighter gun access regulations, as nationwide polls overwhelmingly show Americans are in favor of enacting legislation. If the NRA continues down a "zero tolerance" path, it could eventually lead to a massive reaction by its opponents, and its only protection will be the Supreme Court and its uneasy balance of power.
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RONJ OSE
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8/6/2019 11:39am
LoudLove wrote:
The NRA should take proactive steps in supporting tighter gun access regulations, as nationwide polls overwhelmingly show Americans are in favor of enacting legislation. If the...
The NRA should take proactive steps in supporting tighter gun access regulations, as nationwide polls overwhelmingly show Americans are in favor of enacting legislation. If the NRA continues down a "zero tolerance" path, it could eventually lead to a massive reaction by its opponents, and its only protection will be the Supreme Court and its uneasy balance of power.
There are over 4,000 gun laws in the federal and state level. How many more do we need??
Doesn’t seem like the 4K laws stop mass shooting
FLmxer
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8/6/2019 12:26pm
My thoughts go out to all affected by this crazy person's actions.
It's incorrect to call ar-15s assault weapons. Its the same as an old wooden varmint gun but instead of neutral brown wood they replaced with scarry black plastic. Most hand guns are more powerful. It was designed as a light rifle also so women and kids could enjoy shooting targets etc. Then they mention the chainsaw bayonets. The news has lost all credibility. No assault rifle has been involved in a mass shooting that I know of. Sorry news media. Cant fool everyone with your scarry descriptions.
There is all types of crazy out there, then you have the news manipulating so much b.s.
Also yes gun deaths went down in those countries who had about as many guns as Chicago and banned them but assault and crime went up because only criminals have the weapons.
Maybe make a bunch of new laws and restrictions for the honest citizens and then maybe the criminals will finally start to follow the old laws and then maybe the new ones too. Uh, No they will not.

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SEE ARE125
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8/6/2019 12:56pm
^ Bingo. Anyone who thinks the AR15 is a “military assault rifle” doesn’t know what they’re talking about. It’s not a military style weapon, it’s a military STYLED weapon, meaning it has aesthetics meant to resemble military weapons. Nothing more.
rosebud441
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8/6/2019 1:25pm
LoudLove wrote:
The NRA should take proactive steps in supporting tighter gun access regulations, as nationwide polls overwhelmingly show Americans are in favor of enacting legislation. If the...
The NRA should take proactive steps in supporting tighter gun access regulations, as nationwide polls overwhelmingly show Americans are in favor of enacting legislation. If the NRA continues down a "zero tolerance" path, it could eventually lead to a massive reaction by its opponents, and its only protection will be the Supreme Court and its uneasy balance of power.
NRA is a terrorist organization and they should be dealt with as such,,
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peelout
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8/6/2019 1:32pm Edited Date/Time 8/6/2019 1:35pm
LoudLove wrote:
The NRA should take proactive steps in supporting tighter gun access regulations, as nationwide polls overwhelmingly show Americans are in favor of enacting legislation. If the...
The NRA should take proactive steps in supporting tighter gun access regulations, as nationwide polls overwhelmingly show Americans are in favor of enacting legislation. If the NRA continues down a "zero tolerance" path, it could eventually lead to a massive reaction by its opponents, and its only protection will be the Supreme Court and its uneasy balance of power.
rosebud441 wrote:
NRA is a terrorist organization and they should be dealt with as such,,
0/2 in this thread, try again
GuyB
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8/6/2019 2:14pm
FLmxer wrote:
My thoughts go out to all affected by this crazy person's actions. It's incorrect to call ar-15s assault weapons. Its the same as an old wooden...
My thoughts go out to all affected by this crazy person's actions.
It's incorrect to call ar-15s assault weapons. Its the same as an old wooden varmint gun but instead of neutral brown wood they replaced with scarry black plastic. Most hand guns are more powerful. It was designed as a light rifle also so women and kids could enjoy shooting targets etc. Then they mention the chainsaw bayonets. The news has lost all credibility. No assault rifle has been involved in a mass shooting that I know of. Sorry news media. Cant fool everyone with your scarry descriptions.
There is all types of crazy out there, then you have the news manipulating so much b.s.
Also yes gun deaths went down in those countries who had about as many guns as Chicago and banned them but assault and crime went up because only criminals have the weapons.
Maybe make a bunch of new laws and restrictions for the honest citizens and then maybe the criminals will finally start to follow the old laws and then maybe the new ones too. Uh, No they will not.

Maybe this definition actually matters to you. Unfortunately, the distinction makes little difference one way or another...either to the people who pick one up, load up the magazines and start pulling the trigger, or to the people in the line of fire.
JAFO92
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8/6/2019 2:30pm
GuyB wrote:
Maybe this definition actually matters to you. Unfortunately, the distinction makes little difference one way or another...either to the people who pick one up, load up...
Maybe this definition actually matters to you. Unfortunately, the distinction makes little difference one way or another...either to the people who pick one up, load up the magazines and start pulling the trigger, or to the people in the line of fire.
I see your point, but can you at least concede that sensationalizing things for the sake of ratings and online clicks is irresponsible of an industry that claims it is run by *credible journalists". Of course its important to report news, but Joe Friday was right, "Just the facts, ma'am." Is that too much to ask from an industry that wields the societal-programming power that the big league media has? Theres certainly a place for PT Barnum, but not on news reporting.

Can you put down your Graflex and presshat long enough to see that?
FLmxer
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8/6/2019 2:35pm
GuyB wrote:
Maybe this definition actually matters to you. Unfortunately, the distinction makes little difference one way or another...either to the people who pick one up, load up...
Maybe this definition actually matters to you. Unfortunately, the distinction makes little difference one way or another...either to the people who pick one up, load up the magazines and start pulling the trigger, or to the people in the line of fire.
I understand that 100 percent but I want total truths and nothing else. I dont usually ever even discuss this and usually delete something like this pretty quick if I did. There is no good answer at the moment but something needs to stop this fighting among us all.
avidchimp
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8/6/2019 2:36pm
GuyB wrote:
Maybe this definition actually matters to you. Unfortunately, the distinction makes little difference one way or another...either to the people who pick one up, load up...
Maybe this definition actually matters to you. Unfortunately, the distinction makes little difference one way or another...either to the people who pick one up, load up the magazines and start pulling the trigger, or to the people in the line of fire.
JAFO92 wrote:
I see your point, but can you at least concede that sensationalizing things for the sake of ratings and online clicks is irresponsible of an industry...
I see your point, but can you at least concede that sensationalizing things for the sake of ratings and online clicks is irresponsible of an industry that claims it is run by *credible journalists". Of course its important to report news, but Joe Friday was right, "Just the facts, ma'am." Is that too much to ask from an industry that wields the societal-programming power that the big league media has? Theres certainly a place for PT Barnum, but not on news reporting.

Can you put down your Graflex and presshat long enough to see that?
The mass consolidation of credible news outlets by mega-conglomerations has effectively killed responsible journalism. The ones trying to report the facts are being squeezed out and replaced with talking heads pushing a corporate/national agenda.

This is true for all sides of the isle. It is also not a coincidence.
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GuyB
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8/6/2019 2:38pm
JAFO92 wrote:
I see your point, but can you at least concede that sensationalizing things for the sake of ratings and online clicks is irresponsible of an industry...
I see your point, but can you at least concede that sensationalizing things for the sake of ratings and online clicks is irresponsible of an industry that claims it is run by *credible journalists". Of course its important to report news, but Joe Friday was right, "Just the facts, ma'am." Is that too much to ask from an industry that wields the societal-programming power that the big league media has? Theres certainly a place for PT Barnum, but not on news reporting.

Can you put down your Graflex and presshat long enough to see that?
I don't have a dog in the fight, other than a desire to try and keep the politics out of it...which ain't easy.

Would it make you feel better if they just called it, "The preferred weapon of mass shooters everywhere"?
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