Mass Shooting in El Paso, Texas

8/11/2019 3:52pm Edited Date/Time 8/11/2019 3:52pm
CM_84 wrote:
So maybe guns aren’t the most important thing for protecting the house and family after all.

Thanks for helping make my point.
So if someone comes onto your property to burglarize it would you try to stop or confront them with a knife or ball bat where your...
So if someone comes onto your property to burglarize it would you try to stop or confront them with a knife or ball bat where your gonna have to go close combat or use a standoff weapon like a gun?

I get the impression your just gonna request that the burglar let you and your loved ones leave peacefully and have him call you when hes done takin your stuff.
CM_84 wrote:
Exactly, I try and do what I can, with what I have, or try and run. The whole point I am trying to make is that...
Exactly, I try and do what I can, with what I have, or try and run.

The whole point I am trying to make is that it is so unlikely to happen. I do not believe it is worth the trade off that a large number of guns in the community brings.

Just rack your Remington 870 express once. You won’t even have to run. Hell you probably won’t even have to shoot!
SEEMEFIRST
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8/11/2019 4:12pm
So if someone comes onto your property to burglarize it would you try to stop or confront them with a knife or ball bat where your...
So if someone comes onto your property to burglarize it would you try to stop or confront them with a knife or ball bat where your gonna have to go close combat or use a standoff weapon like a gun?

I get the impression your just gonna request that the burglar let you and your loved ones leave peacefully and have him call you when hes done takin your stuff.
CM_84 wrote:
Exactly, I try and do what I can, with what I have, or try and run. The whole point I am trying to make is that...
Exactly, I try and do what I can, with what I have, or try and run.

The whole point I am trying to make is that it is so unlikely to happen. I do not believe it is worth the trade off that a large number of guns in the community brings.

Just rack your Remington 870 express once. You won’t even have to run. Hell you probably won’t even have to shoot!
Unmistakable sounds come from firearms.

Rack a 1911 in the dark? Someone is going to crush Usain Bolt's 100 record.

The sound my Ithaca model 51 Feather light makes when you push the release leaves zero doubt about the next sound you might hear.
haydos25
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8/11/2019 4:17pm
mxb2 wrote:
Do you live in the usa ,or ever have? Famy lives in the usa?
No i dont live there, never lived there.

Is that relevant? Is life really that much different in the US that no lessons can be learnt from other 1st world countries around the globe? Or even from mistakes in that past within your own country?
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zehn
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8/11/2019 4:34pm
haydos25 wrote:
No i dont live there, never lived there. Is that relevant? Is life really that much different in the US that no lessons can be learnt...
No i dont live there, never lived there.

Is that relevant? Is life really that much different in the US that no lessons can be learnt from other 1st world countries around the globe? Or even from mistakes in that past within your own country?
Of course not but Americans love to use that excuse to hide behind the 2nd Amendment and the gun culture here while scratching their heads about how to prevent/mitigate mass shootings from happening again and again (and again and again and again...)
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The Shop

SEEMEFIRST
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8/11/2019 4:52pm
haydos25 wrote:
No i dont live there, never lived there. Is that relevant? Is life really that much different in the US that no lessons can be learnt...
No i dont live there, never lived there.

Is that relevant? Is life really that much different in the US that no lessons can be learnt from other 1st world countries around the globe? Or even from mistakes in that past within your own country?
And without a shotgun, my wife might have endured what?

How was she going to defend herself from 2 grown men with intentions of, at the bare minimum theft ?
SEEMEFIRST
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8/11/2019 5:18pm
Irrespective, this is how we roll here.
3 outta 4 ain't bad.
90 yards.

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haydos25
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8/11/2019 5:27pm
SEEMEFIRST wrote:
And without a shotgun, my wife might have endured what? How was she going to defend herself from 2 grown men with intentions of, at the...
And without a shotgun, my wife might have endured what?

How was she going to defend herself from 2 grown men with intentions of, at the bare minimum theft ?
Not arguing that was a bad situation and i'm glad your wife in that situation had a gun and everything turned out for the better.

Problem is, for everyone of those stories there is probably 2 or 3 stories of families who had they not had the gun in their house, there young child would still be alive.

Its am emotive topic because we're talking about peoples lives, and the genies out of the bottle as far as guns already in the public domain in America.
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8/11/2019 6:03pm
mxb2 wrote:
Do you live in the usa ,or ever have? Famy lives in the usa?
haydos25 wrote:
No i dont live there, never lived there. Is that relevant? Is life really that much different in the US that no lessons can be learnt...
No i dont live there, never lived there.

Is that relevant? Is life really that much different in the US that no lessons can be learnt from other 1st world countries around the globe? Or even from mistakes in that past within your own country?
Quite a bit different in culture. Just curious why some are so concerned about a place they dont live or visit or have family. When they problems in their own country.
mxb2
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8/11/2019 6:07pm
JAFO92 wrote:
That was a point I was *trying* to make a few days ago to no avail. Reminds me of that saying, "What one has not lived...
That was a point I was *trying* to make a few days ago to no avail. Reminds me of that saying, "What one has not lived, one will never understand in print."
mxb2 wrote:
Bingo. Nice and safe behind a computer with all the answers. Lol.
CM_84 wrote:
So you guys only have opinions on stuff you have directly experienced? Have you guys had family members effected by mass shootings? I am not being...
So you guys only have opinions on stuff you have directly experienced? Have you guys had family members effected by mass shootings?
I am not being a keyboard tough guy, I am just sharing my opinion....just like you guys, it’s just the opposing opinion.
And I certainly don’t profess to have all the answers. It is a super complex and emotive topic with huge consequences either way.
I would happily discuss it over a beer with you also.
Lets try and be civil and appreciate others opinions even if we disagree.
I have been around alot of violent crime scenes, dead and living victims. Once you get a gun to your mouth or head, or a loved one. I guarantee you will change your mind. If it doesnt , shame on you.
haydos25
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8/11/2019 6:12pm
mxb2 wrote:
Quite a bit different in culture. Just curious why some are so concerned about a place they dont live or visit or have family. When they...
Quite a bit different in culture. Just curious why some are so concerned about a place they dont live or visit or have family. When they problems in their own country.
Human life is human life. I was interested to hear what the difference between cultures are. There is a world outside my backyard that id like to know a bit about.
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SEEMEFIRST
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8/11/2019 6:14pm
haydos25 wrote:
Not arguing that was a bad situation and i'm glad your wife in that situation had a gun and everything turned out for the better. Problem...
Not arguing that was a bad situation and i'm glad your wife in that situation had a gun and everything turned out for the better.

Problem is, for everyone of those stories there is probably 2 or 3 stories of families who had they not had the gun in their house, there young child would still be alive.

Its am emotive topic because we're talking about peoples lives, and the genies out of the bottle as far as guns already in the public domain in America.
Yep, case closed.

Both my kids survived me having guns in the house too, as did I with my Dad having guns.

Take away the allure, and mystery. Teach proper use. No problems.
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8/11/2019 6:18pm
mxb2 wrote:
I have been around alot of violent crime scenes, dead and living victims. Once you get a gun to your mouth or head, or a loved...
I have been around alot of violent crime scenes, dead and living victims. Once you get a gun to your mouth or head, or a loved one. I guarantee you will change your mind. If it doesnt , shame on you.
It is amazing how real life experience can change you so much. I have definitely never had a gun to my head, I'm sorry that that happened to you. I have worked in trauma centers though, the people who wear seatbelts in crashes almost always survive. So same as you, I have learned from what I have seen. I always wear my seatbelt.
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CM_84
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8/11/2019 6:19pm Edited Date/Time 8/11/2019 6:32pm
mxb2 wrote:
Do you live in the usa ,or ever have? Famy lives in the usa?
haydos25 wrote:
No i dont live there, never lived there. Is that relevant? Is life really that much different in the US that no lessons can be learnt...
No i dont live there, never lived there.

Is that relevant? Is life really that much different in the US that no lessons can be learnt from other 1st world countries around the globe? Or even from mistakes in that past within your own country?
mxb2 wrote:
Quite a bit different in culture. Just curious why some are so concerned about a place they dont live or visit or have family. When they...
Quite a bit different in culture. Just curious why some are so concerned about a place they dont live or visit or have family. When they problems in their own country.
Edit* deleted double post
CM_84
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8/11/2019 6:28pm
mxb2 wrote:
Do you live in the usa ,or ever have? Famy lives in the usa?
haydos25 wrote:
No i dont live there, never lived there. Is that relevant? Is life really that much different in the US that no lessons can be learnt...
No i dont live there, never lived there.

Is that relevant? Is life really that much different in the US that no lessons can be learnt from other 1st world countries around the globe? Or even from mistakes in that past within your own country?
mxb2 wrote:
Quite a bit different in culture. Just curious why some are so concerned about a place they dont live or visit or have family. When they...
Quite a bit different in culture. Just curious why some are so concerned about a place they dont live or visit or have family. When they problems in their own country.
Because it is a very emotive topic, when people are victims of mass shootings I don’t really care if they are from my country or another.
I think as a whole Australians are pretty proud of how our country responded to it’s biggest mass shooting back in 1996, and we feel we can offer an opinion on what worked for our country.
These incidents get a lot of media attention outside of the US also.

It’s not that strange for people to have an opinion on foreign matters....Americans do the same.
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mxb2
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8/11/2019 6:38pm Edited Date/Time 8/11/2019 6:39pm
mxb2 wrote:
I have been around alot of violent crime scenes, dead and living victims. Once you get a gun to your mouth or head, or a loved...
I have been around alot of violent crime scenes, dead and living victims. Once you get a gun to your mouth or head, or a loved one. I guarantee you will change your mind. If it doesnt , shame on you.
It is amazing how real life experience can change you so much. I have definitely never had a gun to my head, I'm sorry that that...
It is amazing how real life experience can change you so much. I have definitely never had a gun to my head, I'm sorry that that happened to you. I have worked in trauma centers though, the people who wear seatbelts in crashes almost always survive. So same as you, I have learned from what I have seen. I always wear my seatbelt.
Didnt happen to me, but on crime scenes . But the fear and terror they had in their eyes is unforgettable. If you carry. Legally, anybody should. Foolish not to. Might save a life one day. If not, its peace of mind knowing you wont be a victim. Criminals look for the weak,they are cowards.
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Idaho747
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8/11/2019 9:35pm
RONJ OSE wrote:
These shooting make me buy more guns, the only way to stop an shooter is to shoot back. It’s not the 99% of Americans that own...
These shooting make me buy more guns, the only way to stop an shooter is to shoot back.
It’s not the 99% of Americans that own guns legally it’s the criminals and crazy’s
.kyle wrote:
But if guns were banned you wouldn't need to shoot back. I understand the idea of arming people to take out a nutter who is shooting...
But if guns were banned you wouldn't need to shoot back.

I understand the idea of arming people to take out a nutter who is shooting, but it relies on people having the skill and guts to do so. So surely to remove the gun in the first place is the most sensible option as it would mean the nutter wouldn't be shooting to begin with.

Pikes Peak can ban bikes from racing in 2020 because Carlin Dunne unfortunately died. Cigarettes are targeted for cancer deaths, yet hundreds of people die from guns and it's okay to carry on easily selling them (not in all states from my limited understanding).
Heroin and meth are "banned" but more people die of OD then gun violence of any kind
CM_84
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8/11/2019 10:45pm
RONJ OSE wrote:
These shooting make me buy more guns, the only way to stop an shooter is to shoot back. It’s not the 99% of Americans that own...
These shooting make me buy more guns, the only way to stop an shooter is to shoot back.
It’s not the 99% of Americans that own guns legally it’s the criminals and crazy’s
.kyle wrote:
But if guns were banned you wouldn't need to shoot back. I understand the idea of arming people to take out a nutter who is shooting...
But if guns were banned you wouldn't need to shoot back.

I understand the idea of arming people to take out a nutter who is shooting, but it relies on people having the skill and guts to do so. So surely to remove the gun in the first place is the most sensible option as it would mean the nutter wouldn't be shooting to begin with.

Pikes Peak can ban bikes from racing in 2020 because Carlin Dunne unfortunately died. Cigarettes are targeted for cancer deaths, yet hundreds of people die from guns and it's okay to carry on easily selling them (not in all states from my limited understanding).
Idaho747 wrote:
Heroin and meth are "banned" but more people die of OD then gun violence of any kind
So I guess because criminals will still take drugs, we might as well decriminalize the lot? I mean why punish those that take them responsibly just because some people abuse them.
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8/12/2019 12:04am
For the record, my Son and two of my cousins Hubby's are LEO (LAPD south central, and LA County Sheriff), and my future son in law is Oxnard PD. All of them go un-strapped when off duty.

This shit gets so over-blown. Have guns? Cool, but nobody needs 30 of them. and nobody needs semi/full auto anything.
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8/12/2019 4:49am Edited Date/Time 8/12/2019 4:51am
.kyle wrote:
But if guns were banned you wouldn't need to shoot back. I understand the idea of arming people to take out a nutter who is shooting...
But if guns were banned you wouldn't need to shoot back.

I understand the idea of arming people to take out a nutter who is shooting, but it relies on people having the skill and guts to do so. So surely to remove the gun in the first place is the most sensible option as it would mean the nutter wouldn't be shooting to begin with.

Pikes Peak can ban bikes from racing in 2020 because Carlin Dunne unfortunately died. Cigarettes are targeted for cancer deaths, yet hundreds of people die from guns and it's okay to carry on easily selling them (not in all states from my limited understanding).
Idaho747 wrote:
Heroin and meth are "banned" but more people die of OD then gun violence of any kind
CM_84 wrote:
So I guess because criminals will still take drugs, we might as well decriminalize the lot? I mean why punish those that take them responsibly just...
So I guess because criminals will still take drugs, we might as well decriminalize the lot? I mean why punish those that take them responsibly just because some people abuse them.
Not worth it.
mxb2
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8/12/2019 6:07am
RONJ OSE wrote:
These shooting make me buy more guns, the only way to stop an shooter is to shoot back. It’s not the 99% of Americans that own...
These shooting make me buy more guns, the only way to stop an shooter is to shoot back.
It’s not the 99% of Americans that own guns legally it’s the criminals and crazy’s
.kyle wrote:
But if guns were banned you wouldn't need to shoot back. I understand the idea of arming people to take out a nutter who is shooting...
But if guns were banned you wouldn't need to shoot back.

I understand the idea of arming people to take out a nutter who is shooting, but it relies on people having the skill and guts to do so. So surely to remove the gun in the first place is the most sensible option as it would mean the nutter wouldn't be shooting to begin with.

Pikes Peak can ban bikes from racing in 2020 because Carlin Dunne unfortunately died. Cigarettes are targeted for cancer deaths, yet hundreds of people die from guns and it's okay to carry on easily selling them (not in all states from my limited understanding).
Yea ban guns. Lol. That is a great idea. Tell the criminals. Ya know the people who dont give a shit about laws.
CM_84
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8/12/2019 12:05pm
RONJ OSE wrote:
These shooting make me buy more guns, the only way to stop an shooter is to shoot back. It’s not the 99% of Americans that own...
These shooting make me buy more guns, the only way to stop an shooter is to shoot back.
It’s not the 99% of Americans that own guns legally it’s the criminals and crazy’s
.kyle wrote:
But if guns were banned you wouldn't need to shoot back. I understand the idea of arming people to take out a nutter who is shooting...
But if guns were banned you wouldn't need to shoot back.

I understand the idea of arming people to take out a nutter who is shooting, but it relies on people having the skill and guts to do so. So surely to remove the gun in the first place is the most sensible option as it would mean the nutter wouldn't be shooting to begin with.

Pikes Peak can ban bikes from racing in 2020 because Carlin Dunne unfortunately died. Cigarettes are targeted for cancer deaths, yet hundreds of people die from guns and it's okay to carry on easily selling them (not in all states from my limited understanding).
mxb2 wrote:
Yea ban guns. Lol. That is a great idea. Tell the criminals. Ya know the people who dont give a shit about laws.
Do you think that loner whack job that killed all those kids at Sandy Hook would have tapped into his criminal network to get a semi automatic rifle?
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8/12/2019 12:58pm
.kyle wrote:
But if guns were banned you wouldn't need to shoot back. I understand the idea of arming people to take out a nutter who is shooting...
But if guns were banned you wouldn't need to shoot back.

I understand the idea of arming people to take out a nutter who is shooting, but it relies on people having the skill and guts to do so. So surely to remove the gun in the first place is the most sensible option as it would mean the nutter wouldn't be shooting to begin with.

Pikes Peak can ban bikes from racing in 2020 because Carlin Dunne unfortunately died. Cigarettes are targeted for cancer deaths, yet hundreds of people die from guns and it's okay to carry on easily selling them (not in all states from my limited understanding).
mxb2 wrote:
Yea ban guns. Lol. That is a great idea. Tell the criminals. Ya know the people who dont give a shit about laws.
CM_84 wrote:
Do you think that loner whack job that killed all those kids at Sandy Hook would have tapped into his criminal network to get a semi...
Do you think that loner whack job that killed all those kids at Sandy Hook would have tapped into his criminal network to get a semi automatic rifle?
No idea. But a killer will find a way to get any weapon.
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CM_84
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8/12/2019 2:12pm Edited Date/Time 8/12/2019 8:25pm
mxb2 wrote:
Yea ban guns. Lol. That is a great idea. Tell the criminals. Ya know the people who dont give a shit about laws.
CM_84 wrote:
Do you think that loner whack job that killed all those kids at Sandy Hook would have tapped into his criminal network to get a semi...
Do you think that loner whack job that killed all those kids at Sandy Hook would have tapped into his criminal network to get a semi automatic rifle?
mxb2 wrote:
No idea. But a killer will find a way to get any weapon.
And that’s the crux of this argument.
In my opinion, and it’s ok to have an opinion.
Most of the time they do not, certainly not a semi automatic rifle.
A kid like that prick in Sandy Hook is not going to go down to a dodgy part of town and start chatting to gangsters.
In Australia apparently semi autos on the black market cost over 20k. And I would have no chance of finding someone who could sell me one.
Granted I understand with the amount of guns in the community in the US it would take a very long time to get to that point.
But it would be tragic if we are having this same argument in 50 years wondering ‘if only we did something in 2019’

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8/12/2019 5:51pm
avidchimp wrote:
For the record, my Son and two of my cousins Hubby's are LEO (LAPD south central, and LA County Sheriff), and my future son in law...
For the record, my Son and two of my cousins Hubby's are LEO (LAPD south central, and LA County Sheriff), and my future son in law is Oxnard PD. All of them go un-strapped when off duty.

This shit gets so over-blown. Have guns? Cool, but nobody needs 30 of them. and nobody needs semi/full auto anything.
Do you think the cop that had his funeral today had his gun at the he time of the incident? Probably not. My son is also in law enforcement and usually carries off duty. I’m cool with it and I think it’s smart. I guess everyone has their own opinion.
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mxb2
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8/12/2019 8:40pm
avidchimp wrote:
For the record, my Son and two of my cousins Hubby's are LEO (LAPD south central, and LA County Sheriff), and my future son in law...
For the record, my Son and two of my cousins Hubby's are LEO (LAPD south central, and LA County Sheriff), and my future son in law is Oxnard PD. All of them go un-strapped when off duty.

This shit gets so over-blown. Have guns? Cool, but nobody needs 30 of them. and nobody needs semi/full auto anything.
jgmxdad251 wrote:
Do you think the cop that had his funeral today had his gun at the he time of the incident? Probably not. My son is also...
Do you think the cop that had his funeral today had his gun at the he time of the incident? Probably not. My son is also in law enforcement and usually carries off duty. I’m cool with it and I think it’s smart. I guess everyone has their own opinion.
Carry if ya can , why not.
8/13/2019 7:49am
CM_84 wrote:
And that’s the crux of this argument. In my opinion, and it’s ok to have an opinion. Most of the time they do not, certainly not...
And that’s the crux of this argument.
In my opinion, and it’s ok to have an opinion.
Most of the time they do not, certainly not a semi automatic rifle.
A kid like that prick in Sandy Hook is not going to go down to a dodgy part of town and start chatting to gangsters.
In Australia apparently semi autos on the black market cost over 20k. And I would have no chance of finding someone who could sell me one.
Granted I understand with the amount of guns in the community in the US it would take a very long time to get to that point.
But it would be tragic if we are having this same argument in 50 years wondering ‘if only we did something in 2019’

If you ban semi automatic rifles then, whether you realise it or not, you'll inevitably find yourself on a path to banning semi automatic pistols and shotguns - because they'll very likely be what the mass shooter turns to next. Regardless of what you ban over the justification of being especially dangerous, they'll always be something next on the list that unavoidably takes that place. If I'm left with owning 2 bolt action rifles, one in .22 and another in .308 etc, then an argument can be made that the .22 is OK but the .308 especially dangerous and there's no reason, no need, for someone to have that...

I accept that a self loader is faster than a manual action - but if a mass shooter (and forgive me for sounding flippant over something so utterly horrendous) is left picking off people that aren't shooting back, then they're still going to do a tremendous amount of damage regardless of what they use. You're still going to end up with the same frequency of mass shootings and a likely casualty list in double figures. In England in 2010 a shooter killed 12 people using a .22 bolt action and double barrelled shotgun - two of the least dangerous firearms available in the wrong hands.

Lever action rifles, bolt action rifles, straight pulls, revolvers etc can all be cycled and reloaded amazingly fast with a degree of practice. So it may make a difference, it may be worth trying, idk. But I very much doubt it personally. And I certainly don't think it'd make anything like the difference of putting the same energy into a better vetting system. Better to keep what you've left legal out of the wrong hands to begin with. And then there's tackling the issues of mental health in males especially with Men and boys predominantly being the ones doing this. There must be a reason for that worth investigating...

Lastly, Australia has been mentioned a lot. Australia and the UK both implemented VERY good vetting processes and they both, as a result, have very low instances of gun crime, particularly via legal ownership. However that has almost nothing to do with what they've banned - in fact the UK mainland has banned significantly less than Australia, yet has even less gun crime... The bans are good window dressing for a general public that largely know little to nothing about guns or gun ownership, but the real reason for low gun crime will always lie first and foremost in a thorough vetting system.
early
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8/13/2019 8:10am
If you ban semi automatic rifles then, whether you realise it or not, you'll inevitably find yourself on a path to banning semi automatic pistols and...
If you ban semi automatic rifles then, whether you realise it or not, you'll inevitably find yourself on a path to banning semi automatic pistols and shotguns - because they'll very likely be what the mass shooter turns to next. Regardless of what you ban over the justification of being especially dangerous, they'll always be something next on the list that unavoidably takes that place. If I'm left with owning 2 bolt action rifles, one in .22 and another in .308 etc, then an argument can be made that the .22 is OK but the .308 especially dangerous and there's no reason, no need, for someone to have that...

I accept that a self loader is faster than a manual action - but if a mass shooter (and forgive me for sounding flippant over something so utterly horrendous) is left picking off people that aren't shooting back, then they're still going to do a tremendous amount of damage regardless of what they use. You're still going to end up with the same frequency of mass shootings and a likely casualty list in double figures. In England in 2010 a shooter killed 12 people using a .22 bolt action and double barrelled shotgun - two of the least dangerous firearms available in the wrong hands.

Lever action rifles, bolt action rifles, straight pulls, revolvers etc can all be cycled and reloaded amazingly fast with a degree of practice. So it may make a difference, it may be worth trying, idk. But I very much doubt it personally. And I certainly don't think it'd make anything like the difference of putting the same energy into a better vetting system. Better to keep what you've left legal out of the wrong hands to begin with. And then there's tackling the issues of mental health in males especially with Men and boys predominantly being the ones doing this. There must be a reason for that worth investigating...

Lastly, Australia has been mentioned a lot. Australia and the UK both implemented VERY good vetting processes and they both, as a result, have very low instances of gun crime, particularly via legal ownership. However that has almost nothing to do with what they've banned - in fact the UK mainland has banned significantly less than Australia, yet has even less gun crime... The bans are good window dressing for a general public that largely know little to nothing about guns or gun ownership, but the real reason for low gun crime will always lie first and foremost in a thorough vetting system.
"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

Would the implementation of a strict vetting process be "regulation of militia" or "infringement" of a right?

Playing devil's advocate here.
8/13/2019 9:02am Edited Date/Time 8/13/2019 9:02am
This happened in Riverside yesterday. I was working in a Riverside ER, but we didn't receive any of the patients.

I would think that all of this happened because he didn't want to go away for being a felon in possession of a firearm. I originally heard that there were ten total victims caught in the cross fire, but haven't been able to confirm it.


Riverside shooting

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