If you fly......you better watch this. Scary as hell. PC taking over FAA.

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6/10/2018 9:59 PM

Maybe a pilot on here can tell me how messed up this is:
I've had two landings aborted recently on commercial flights, one in L.A. and one in Boise. The pilot in both cases got on the P.A. and said there were planes on the runway when we were coming in. In Boise, we were very close to wheels down when the guy guns it and takes off again. It was an experience I have never had, and it happened twice in a span of a couple of months. It's quite a unique experience to almost be landed then take off at a steep angle. I didn't think that's the way things worked...

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It's impossible for a corporation or government to love you or care about you.

6/11/2018 5:46 AM

GeorgiePorgie wrote:

In nursing school there was a good guy in my class. He was a airline mechanic for 28 years. Said he would never fly in those ...more

Was his name Bernie by chance?

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6/11/2018 6:13 AM
Edited Date/Time: 6/11/2018 9:51 AM

GeorgiePorgie wrote:

In nursing school there was a good guy in my class. He was a airline mechanic for 28 years. Said he would never fly in those ...more

Subjectively the former mechanic "feels" aircraft reliability is low. Objectively, the numbers prove that US air travel has never been safer. While mechanical devices spinning at 10K+ RPM can and do fail, overall reliability and levels of redundancy in aircraft perform a fantastic job in preventing jets from "coming down" with regularity. It's something we all recognize, but some people struggle with air travel.

Unless your buddy was a mechanic for Aeroflot. Then that's another story...

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"You can't resist the louder pull..."

6/11/2018 6:55 AM
Edited Date/Time: 6/11/2018 6:57 AM

NorCal 50+ wrote:

Maybe a pilot on here can tell me how messed up this is:
I've had two landings aborted recently on commercial flights, one in ...more

I'll give it a shot... I fly corporate jets all around the country and also a little international.

Believe it or not, while aborted landings are not extremely common, they are more common than you might think, and are something practiced in recurrent training (usually with one engine shut down, along with other simulated emergencies).

LA is a very busy airspace, and they are trying to push as many pieces of aluminum in there as they can, and that will happen sometimes. Winds pick up or drop off ( affecting ground speed) or sometimes pilots slow down sooner than expected. Lots of pilots from other countries, with language barriers, etc.

Boise on the other hand, isn't super busy. Could have even been something the pilots didn't like and just wanted to head around and get things more to their liking ( might have blamed it on traffic). Going around and sorting things out is way more preferable than being spring loaded to land no matter what... Or it could have been traffic.

I was on a commercial flight going into Atlanta once, and the pilot started doing s-turns as we were on final which is a sure sign we were getting a bit bunched up. Sure enough, he went around and several people became concerned that something was wrong. I explained that there was just traffic on the runway, but they didn't believe me till the pilot came on and explained what happened. Once I was on final flying a citation into Charlotte and was watching an airliner coming in on an intersecting runway. I was totally expecting them to send us around, because it looked like we might be crossing the intersection at the same time, when the controller sent the airliner around.

While I am a big Fox News fan ( compared to the other choices), I know they aren't perfect. The hiring practices that he is talking about do concern me, but more because they will waste more time and money training these people than they should have to. I think they will have a super high wash out rate, and not put unqualified people into the job.

At least I'm telling myself that for now.

As the old saying goes, if a pilot screws up the pilot dies, if a controller screws up, the pilot dies.

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6/11/2018 6:59 AM

NorCal 50+ wrote:

Maybe a pilot on here can tell me how messed up this is:
I've had two landings aborted recently on commercial flights, one in ...more

Go-arounds/missed approaches are not uncommon, and part of everyday aviation process & procedures. Most are initiated by traffic control with plenty of advanced notice, but late calls do occur. And while a civilian may get the sensation that the aircraft is performing aggressively, go-arounds typically induce very little stress on the air frame. Even a relatively mild 1.25G maneuver will have passengers clutching the arms of their seats, when these aircraft are capable of sustained 3.5G+ aerobatics.

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"You can't resist the louder pull..."

6/11/2018 9:47 AM

NorCal 50+ wrote:

Maybe a pilot on here can tell me how messed up this is:
I've had two landings aborted recently on commercial flights, one in ...more

LoudLove wrote:

Go-arounds/missed approaches are not uncommon, and part of everyday aviation process & procedures. Most are initiated by ...more

Thanks for the responses GWorm and LoudLove. That is pretty interesting. I wasn't worried so much about the stress on the airplane, just saying it was an odd sensation, especially when he hit the engines. Felt like an old crop-duster.
In Boise, the pilot said there was a military plan in the way. Anyhow, it's good to know I didn't have two near-misses.

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It's impossible for a corporation or government to love you or care about you.

6/11/2018 3:56 PM

akillerwombat wrote:

Nah, it's way more fun to watch you guys scare the shit out of each other every 12 minutes over some dumb shit you didn't know ...more

jeffro503 wrote:

You think we would of heard the details about this on CNN?

See , this is what I'm talking about. Certain news station's ...more

APLMAN99 wrote:

From what it appears, the standards for training have not changed. So the claim that this "has the potential to kill a bunch ...more

Feel free to explain how being unemployed is a trait of successful people, and why that should give extra points. Inquiring minds want to know. And before you go there, I don't think they are referring to self-employed.
TM

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www.alljackedupinc.com home of the Switch Hauler®

6/11/2018 4:00 PM
Edited Date/Time: 6/11/2018 4:21 PM

Gworm wrote:

I'll give it a shot... I fly corporate jets all around the country and also a little international.

Believe it or not, while ...more

From some of the things I’d read, the thought was that there’d likely be less “wash out” as prior education wasn’t as big of an indicator for success as much as experience dealing with stressful situations, etc. I guess that has more data needed.

I think I read that candidate selection has actually become more stringent, not less, with only 1 in 12 passing on after initial screening.

But I haven’t seen a single reference to the actual qualifications for becoming a full on ATC being lowered, despite Tucker Carlson’s dog whistling to rile up the folks with pitchforks.....

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6/11/2018 4:19 PM

ToolMaker wrote:

Feel free to explain how being unemployed is a trait of successful people, and why that should give extra points. Inquiring ...more

Personally, I take it with a grain of salt that the FAA actually does consider this a plus and grants "points" for being unemployed. Based on how silly and hyperbolic the reporting has been on the initial screening questions thus far and the fact that folks like Carlson "forget" to mention that the actual testing and training haven't changed, my gut feeling is that it's nothing more than a big fucking lie. But one gleefully repeated by those that really want to believe it.

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6/11/2018 4:55 PM

Since the story was about screening to even get considered to go further, it wasn't really forgotten. So your position is they are telling a big fat lie? Because our government would never do something stupid like that or lie to us about it.
TM

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www.alljackedupinc.com home of the Switch Hauler®

6/11/2018 5:32 PM

ToolMaker wrote:

Since the story was about screening to even get considered to go further, it wasn't really forgotten. So your position is they ...more

Actually, the gist of the story was that safety was being compromised because they were letting all these folks in to a training program that was almost exclusively reserved for "non minorities". Tucker, nor Fox, provide any actual evidence of the scoring system other than simply saying it. There is no link to the alleged information that they have become privy to. There's likely a good reason for that.


The explanation for the change sounds pretty reasonable. When you see a lack of diversity in any area, it should make you ask a few questions. Sometimes the lack of diversity is explainable and logical, sometimes it's a sign of unreasonable barriers that end up weeding out candidates who might otherwise excel. In this case, there wasn't an overwhelming indication that graduating from one of the CTI courses was a strong indicator for success as a Controller. There are indicators that are at least as strong, and perhaps stronger, and that's why the change was ultimately made. The CTI graduation advantage wasn't strong, and made less sense to remain as a "plus", because it was an unneeded barrier.

I'd say that Carlson did a decent job of whipping up the masses who just can't understand how a white person could possibly not be selected for a job or training position over a minority, but he didn't actually provide any proof for his hysterical rantings for those that actually like to be informed by facts.........

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6/12/2018 7:06 AM
Edited Date/Time: 6/12/2018 7:07 AM

akillerwombat wrote:

I don't have enough experience in this field to agree or disagree with the testing; I do however have the ability to access ...more

Are you the guy that uses doctor google and then wants to tell physicians and nurses how to manage plan of care for a serious illness ? Because you can access the “data” ?

In your field.....have you ever in your own experience operated outside the suggested data and has it ever worked or ended up being a better way to operate ?

(Serious question)

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GP740
Since 1987

6/12/2018 8:15 AM

GeorgiePorgie wrote:

Are you the guy that uses doctor google and then wants to tell physicians and nurses how to manage plan of care for a serious ...more

If you're good at your job you should be so in tune with the suggested data that you are never truly "operating outside" of it.

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6/12/2018 9:05 AM

ToolMaker wrote:

Since the story was about screening to even get considered to go further, it wasn't really forgotten. So your position is they ...more

APLMAN99 wrote:

Actually, the gist of the story was that safety was being compromised because they were letting all these folks in to a ...more

A bit of a u turn there. First you tried to posit that the change was to emulate traits of the most successful controllers and now you all but admit that it's nothing more than to promote diversity.
So the issue is this. The FAA has an "approved curriculum" and you're saying that someone who passes that is not a better starting point on average than someone who has been unemployed.
The way I see it is if the FAA felt that was a good learning path, the way to become more diverse is to give grants to minorities to help then also complete the CTI, but no lets abandon a program that starts teaching them the trade.
That's not to say that there are smart people who didn't go through CTI but why discount it?
Now you have 3 choices, dumb down the training so the less trained people can catch up. Spend more money training the applicants with no knowledge, or 3 keep the standards and schedule the same, which will result the folks with less basic knowledge (the new diverse crowd) fail which is even worse.
Maybe we should also just tell kids who invested time in ROTC that it's no longer an advantage to the path of becoming an officer. Unemployed people can do just fine. Same thing right?
If the same story appeared on CNN you'd consider that the "proof" but because you feel that Fox is not in alignment with your views they should "provide" proof.

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www.alljackedupinc.com home of the Switch Hauler®

6/12/2018 10:45 AM

ToolMaker wrote:

A bit of a u turn there. First you tried to posit that the change was to emulate traits of the most successful controllers and ...more

No U turn at all. Your representation of my position is inaccurate.

Initially there were questions about why there was such little minority representation in this occupation. After studying it, barriers were identified that disproportionately affected minorities entering the field. Those barriers were then looked at to evaluate whether or not they were actually valid predictors of future success as an ATC. Some of the barriers are still in place, others were discarded because there really wasn't a strong correlation between them and success.

The CTI graduation barrier was in the first group. It didn't have that strong of a correlation to success. Once the barriers were identified, then the task was to find subjective screening measures to help funnel candidates down from the initial applicant groups. When evaluation current controllers who are successful, certain biographical trends were identified as being prevalent in higher percentages of successful graduates of the actual training programs, as well as of high performing controllers.

No matter the news source, I'd question any claim about the questionnaire and the "points" claims without any proof. But yes, I am especially suspicious of a guy like Tucker Carlson who is a race baiting shithole who will say anything to promote hysteria amongst his viewership any time he thinks that a minority may have an equal opportunity at anything. It has nothing to do with Fox not being in "alignment" with my views. It has to do with asking for facts, something that you don't seem to be worried about in this case.

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6/12/2018 12:10 PM

Photo
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IG: @mullennix_qc

6/12/2018 12:33 PM

I don't care who is behind the wheel,,,, I hate flying more than hitting neutral on the face of a big one.

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6/12/2018 1:36 PM

rosebud441 wrote:

I don't care who is behind the wheel,,,, I hate flying more than hitting neutral on the face of a big one.

you talkin wimmen or jumps?

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6/12/2018 2:29 PM
Edited Date/Time: 6/12/2018 2:30 PM

GeorgiePorgie wrote:

In nursing school there was a good guy in my class. He was a airline mechanic for 28 years. Said he would never fly in those ...more

AHRMA361 wrote:

Was his name Bernie by chance?

YESSSSS

How is that bastard. I lost his number. Please tell me you have it !!

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GP740
Since 1987

6/12/2018 2:31 PM
Edited Date/Time: 6/12/2018 2:33 PM

akillerwombat wrote:

If you're good at your job you should be so in tune with the suggested data that you are never truly "operating outside" of ...more

Terrible answer. But thanks for answering. Jobs change and evolve quickly. With your progressive ideas you of all people would know and embrace this. You have Huge ideas of change in other aspects. But jobs must be cut and dry ? Straight forward to the book every time. No deviation ?

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GP740
Since 1987

6/12/2018 2:38 PM
Edited Date/Time: 6/12/2018 2:38 PM

GeorgiePorgie wrote:

Terrible answer. But thanks for answering. Jobs change and evolve quickly. With your progressive ideas you of all people would ...more

I realize it's a rather confusing concept for you to grasp, but to put it in the most simple terms, "huge new ideas" are built on all of the ideas (and data) that have come before them.

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6/12/2018 3:25 PM

akillerwombat wrote:

I realize it's a rather confusing concept for you to grasp, but to put it in the most simple terms, "huge new ideas" are built ...more

That sentence sounds like the perfect way to send a philosophy class off tangent for a good hour.

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6/13/2018 2:31 PM

APLMAN99 wrote:

Actually, the gist of the story was that safety was being compromised because they were letting all these folks in to a ...more

ToolMaker wrote:

A bit of a u turn there. First you tried to posit that the change was to emulate traits of the most successful controllers and ...more

APLMAN99 wrote:

No U turn at all. Your representation of my position is inaccurate.

Initially there were questions about why there was such ...more

"In reading actual reports on the practice, it sounds like the new "filter" tests were designed based on factors derived from answers given by the most successful controllers."

Sure looks to me that you're trying to equate the new filters were to get a better group.

"The CTI graduation barrier was in the first group. It didn't have that strong of a correlation to success."

Was the CTI not a program approved by them? If it wasn't working, fix it. So now being unemployed is better than having gone through a program they helped set up? Again, fix the program. and you can give grants for minorities to get in if they qualify so they have an understanding when they start their training.

There are always "outliers" that will succeed in whatever they do. The exception never makes for a good rule.
So you have no proof that the points are not accurate, you only feel they are not?
While we will not know for sure until the law suite goes forward and then still may not know as if the suitable answers are known everyone will just give the "perfect answers"

Lastly,
What's your experience with dealing with controllers?
A million + commercial miles flown?
Are you a pilot?
Ever been in a near miss midair collision because of a controller?
Yes for me on all of the above,

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www.alljackedupinc.com home of the Switch Hauler®

6/14/2018 12:16 PM

So funny listening / reading some of the comments from guys on the left on this subject. Actually trying to justify it some how , and think it's the right way to do things. When in reality , short and sweet.......more qualified people lose out on employment because they don't fit into a minority group. If I am going to fly in a plane....I want the best pilot period , along with the best air traffic controller. Not the guy ( or gal ) that got the job handed to them because they had the correct skin color or a pair of nuts between their legs.

You can try and justify it all you want to......it's just fucking stupid , on all levels.

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And there goes Jeffro. One of God's own prototypes. A super high-powered mutant of some kind never even considered for mass production. Too weird to live, and too rare to die.

Ezza is Da man!

Pimpin' Ho's , Rollin' fatty's......drinkin' beers , beers , beers!! ~ Ja

6/14/2018 12:42 PM

jeffro503 wrote:

So funny listening / reading some of the comments from guys on the left on this subject. Actually trying to justify it some ...more

Outside of a question(s) on the application for the jobs what evidence do you have that the most qualified people are not flying planes or working as air traffic controllers?

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6/15/2018 7:36 PM

jeffro503 wrote:

So funny listening / reading some of the comments from guys on the left on this subject. Actually trying to justify it some ...more

akillerwombat wrote:

Outside of a question(s) on the application for the jobs what evidence do you have that the most qualified people are not ...more

If the article in the link from ted is accurate, someone who gets 100% on their selection test and is told "no good"?

"As we reported in 2016, the allegations of discrimination stem from the FAA’s change in ATC hiring practices in 2013. Before that time, preference was given to CTI graduates, veterans and those with high rankings on the Air Traffic Selection and Training exam (AT-SAT). The AT-SAT was revised in 2013, a separate personality-based Biographical Assessment—that many said was nonsensical—was added as a requirement and preferential hiring for CTI grads was removed. According to the FAA, the purpose of the assessment was, in part, to increase diversity in its workforce.

The FAA eventually reinstated preference for CTI graduates and veterans and withdrew the assessment requirement for those groups after complaints from Congress. Applicants who were passed over were urged to reapply in a general statement but were not automatically reconsidered. According to the Mountain States Legal Foundation, Brigida, who had scored 100 percent on the AT-SAT and applied for an ATC job in late 2013, and between 1,500 and 3,500 similarly qualified ATC applicants were told by the FAA in early 2014 that due to the new hiring procedures, their applications and AT-SAT scores were invalid and would need to be redone."

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www.alljackedupinc.com home of the Switch Hauler®

6/16/2018 8:16 AM

ToolMaker wrote:

If the article in the link from ted is accurate, someone who gets 100% on their selection test and is told "no good"?

"As we ...more

OK, but where is the evidence that the most qualified people didn't end up in the position(s) at the end?"

I work in a field where I am constantly shown that people that start off the strongest on paper prove to not be the strongest at the end of the job.

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6/16/2018 10:36 AM

ToolMaker wrote:

"In reading actual reports on the practice, it sounds like the new "filter" tests were designed based on factors derived from ...more

The newer bio/personality filters are an attempt to get a better group. There are studies showing that giving this test in advance of, rather than during, the AT-SAT results in significantly higher rates of finishing training.

The CTI program was actually "designed" by the FAA with the best available data at the time. That doesn't tie them to it forever as new knowledge about how to select more successful candidates comes available. If personality traits are shown to be a better indicator of success, then there is no reason to "fix" the CTI program. Programs like these don't generally 'teach personality traits', so there's no reason to increase personal expenses (self paid tuition) or government spending (federal grants) on programs that don't address the main issues. I would definitely agree that, barring some evidence of this being an emergency change, those enrolled in a CTI program should have been subject to the "old" hiring rules for a period of time after their entry into a CTI program. Similar to how if a university changes their degree requirements, current and previously enrolled students have the benefit of meeting the requirements published at the time of their first enrollment.

There is no proof of "points" being given because of race. My disbelief that there is is based in part on the tendencies of those making that claim to be breathless race baiters who frequently make these silly claims without evidence to try to influence with dog whistles (Carlson and Co.). If Fox truly had the documents on the scoring system, they'd have plastered it all over their website. They didn't do that for a reason......

If you've flown that much, it's surprising that you are so against these more stringent selection standards. Selecting for how a potential controller handles stressful situations should be a very good thing for pilots, rather than simply granting a "waiver" of sorts for those who have been fortunate enough to pass an academic program tailored to pass an entry exam before the actual, real training begins.

It's almost as if people say they are for increased safety in our air traffic system, unless that increased safety has the side benefit of clearing some of the hurdles that keep minorities from having more realistic opportunities for participation.

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6/16/2018 9:37 PM

What were the hurdles minorities faced that prevented opportunities for participation that needed changed?

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