Hvac electric heat pump. (bill update holy crap) update again!!

reded
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3685
Joined
3/26/2011
Location
KS US
2/28/2019 8:45pm
Holy crap!!!!! Dude get a generac generator. that’s one thing I can’t bitch about......yet Another reason to plum gas in. No more refilling tanks yearly. It’s...
Holy crap!!!!!

Dude get a generac generator. that’s one thing I can’t bitch about......yet Another reason to plum gas in. No more refilling tanks yearly.


It’s a hassle to get natural gas where I’m at. The county was giving my neighbors shit. But they told me how to pester them and then finally they’ll give in. They just got it last year.
I wish a few months worth of pestering would net a natural gas line to my house. I’m on propane which is double the price of natural gas even at its cheapest point in the year.
3/1/2019 1:26am
All my stuff was just installed a couple years ago. I’d hate to rip this 4ton out in lieu of a 5 ton. but I gotta figure something out. I’m not liking sub $500 monthly bills.
3/1/2019 8:05am
Your baby has the right idea, get a halo sleepsack for you and the misses. That should keep you warm and toasty.
honda907
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359
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Location
Chesterfield, SC US
3/5/2019 7:26pm
Georgie porgie. Your house is much larger than your old house. Im a HVAC contractor. That Ducane unit isn't the most efficient and it looks poorly installed, like another guy said, just by looking at the lineset. Ducane is a contractor grade unit.

Gas is on the rise. It was cheap, but here in PA, Peoples is going to the PUC to increase it 35 %.

If you use foam, that is a great insulator. But your respiratory system and health will suffer from years of VOC vapors. Plus the house will have no turnover of air Called new house syndrome or sick building syndrome. It is a big, big problem. Really big. Canadians know about this all too well. Your house I suspect wasn't insulated as well as you would think if it was a spec home or a home in a development. That's just what we see as HVAC contractors.

Most of the comments seem correct. Even though it's 72, the air may only be 92 and it is "moving" out of the vents at day 600Feet Per Minute. That is what feels colder.

Leave the thermostat in one position. Set it and forget it.

Moral is:: big house, big expenses. . oh and change that filter when your mortgage is due. Can't stress that enough.

The Shop

jgmxdad251
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Location
Simi Valley, CA US
3/5/2019 10:17pm
I know heat pump technology has come a long way but it’s still basically your running your AC in reverse. This means your paying the same price to cool and heat.
motogrady
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Location
WV US
3/6/2019 4:25am
jgmxdad251 wrote:
I know heat pump technology has come a long way but it’s still basically your running your AC in reverse. This means your paying the same...
I know heat pump technology has come a long way but it’s still basically your running your AC in reverse. This means your paying the same price to cool and heat.
Big difference is in cooling, or summer, you are dealing with a 25 to 30 degree inside/outside temp difference.
In heating, winter, you try to overcome a 70 degree, 0 outside 70 inside, difference.

Hang in there boys.....Spring is right around the corner. Good thoughts.


1
jgmxdad251
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Simi Valley, CA US
3/6/2019 4:58am
jgmxdad251 wrote:
I know heat pump technology has come a long way but it’s still basically your running your AC in reverse. This means your paying the same...
I know heat pump technology has come a long way but it’s still basically your running your AC in reverse. This means your paying the same price to cool and heat.
motogrady wrote:
Big difference is in cooling, or summer, you are dealing with a 25 to 30 degree inside/outside temp difference. In heating, winter, you try to overcome...
Big difference is in cooling, or summer, you are dealing with a 25 to 30 degree inside/outside temp difference.
In heating, winter, you try to overcome a 70 degree, 0 outside 70 inside, difference.

Hang in there boys.....Spring is right around the corner. Good thoughts.


I realize that. That’s why I’m surprised you guys back east use heat pumps. They are popular here on the west coast because we don’t have nearly as extreme weather as you guys.... Mini splits are pretty popular here. I put one in every I.T. Room I do.
motogrady
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Location
WV US
3/6/2019 5:32am
jgmxdad251 wrote:
I know heat pump technology has come a long way but it’s still basically your running your AC in reverse. This means your paying the same...
I know heat pump technology has come a long way but it’s still basically your running your AC in reverse. This means your paying the same price to cool and heat.
motogrady wrote:
Big difference is in cooling, or summer, you are dealing with a 25 to 30 degree inside/outside temp difference. In heating, winter, you try to overcome...
Big difference is in cooling, or summer, you are dealing with a 25 to 30 degree inside/outside temp difference.
In heating, winter, you try to overcome a 70 degree, 0 outside 70 inside, difference.

Hang in there boys.....Spring is right around the corner. Good thoughts.


jgmxdad251 wrote:
I realize that. That’s why I’m surprised you guys back east use heat pumps. They are popular here on the west coast because we don’t have...
I realize that. That’s why I’m surprised you guys back east use heat pumps. They are popular here on the west coast because we don’t have nearly as extreme weather as you guys.... Mini splits are pretty popular here. I put one in every I.T. Room I do.
Well, it's not like people are demanding them. Many say and feel the Mason Dixon line, that area, is as far North as they should go.
It's mainly the builders. If gas isn't around, they go heat pump electric backup. Then the people buying the house just kinda suck it up.

I know I've had success with cutting a guys oil bill going hybrid. AC needs replacing, or installing, go heat pump set to changeover to oil at say, 35 outside. Last one I did the guy said he went from 2k per season in oil to 600 last year. And believe it or not, rural areas there is still a good bit of oil furnace out there.

That being said, mention heat pump, and it's not uncommon to see a guys eyes roll around here.

3
3/6/2019 6:20pm Edited Date/Time 3/6/2019 6:24pm
@907 my house isn’t a spec home. I live out in no mans land. Farm fields all around. No developments. Not many neighbors.

I need to re look at my insulation as well. There are some things the last owner did half assed. And I’m stuck cleaning up their mess. Structurally this place is sound and well built it’s the finish work they fucked off on. And it’s starting to piss me off. finding shit weekly. My old house was buttoned up and neat. Nothing was beat. Door jambs are fucked in this house. I need to replace the doors. Etc.

Had an old wooden deck that rotted. They ripped it out. Replaced with walmonized wood where it flushed up to the house and didn’t insulate. Found that out when I tore the carpet up and replaced some plywood and insulated. Then installed new floor. My bay window i crawled under the other day, I can tell they tore the bottom off with the deck Put up 1/2 inch foam board and racked up new plywood and said fuck it. I’m losing a lot of heat right there.

Dumbasses painted all this beautiful poplar baseboards white. Makes me sick. When I pulled some off it’s a great dark wood.

Replaced all door knobs in the house. They spray painted them black. Different color light switches. Some white. Some cream in the same receptacle. People really know how to fuck shit up.

Holes in all the walls. Like just pounded shit into the wall 5-6 nails wide until they found a stud. Covered it up. Like 100 Pin holes from a poster sticking teenager. Took me 8 hours with sheet rock 45 to fix room.

Sucks when you’re looking at a house you don’t really notice all the finish shit until you’re fixing it.
footglove
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Kendallville, IN US
3/7/2019 5:04am
I don't know if it is the same in your area or not, but my electric provider came out to do an energy assessment for me. Cost me nothing for them to come out. They spent probably 2.5 hours checking everything from insulation to water flow. They brought their thermal imaging camera and were able to really see where I was losing all of my heat.

Naturally, they gave me a price to work with their "approved" contractor to fix all of this stuff, but I just took the report and started fixing things on my own. I won't say it solved all my issues, but it definitely got me going in the right direction.
1
motosmith
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Location
Washougal, WA US
3/7/2019 8:51am
footglove wrote:
I don't know if it is the same in your area or not, but my electric provider came out to do an energy assessment for me...
I don't know if it is the same in your area or not, but my electric provider came out to do an energy assessment for me. Cost me nothing for them to come out. They spent probably 2.5 hours checking everything from insulation to water flow. They brought their thermal imaging camera and were able to really see where I was losing all of my heat.

Naturally, they gave me a price to work with their "approved" contractor to fix all of this stuff, but I just took the report and started fixing things on my own. I won't say it solved all my issues, but it definitely got me going in the right direction.
Were you losing around the door seals? I can feel the wind blow around my door sometimes. I need to replace all the seals but that takes time I dont have.
footglove
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Location
Kendallville, IN US
3/7/2019 9:40am
footglove wrote:
I don't know if it is the same in your area or not, but my electric provider came out to do an energy assessment for me...
I don't know if it is the same in your area or not, but my electric provider came out to do an energy assessment for me. Cost me nothing for them to come out. They spent probably 2.5 hours checking everything from insulation to water flow. They brought their thermal imaging camera and were able to really see where I was losing all of my heat.

Naturally, they gave me a price to work with their "approved" contractor to fix all of this stuff, but I just took the report and started fixing things on my own. I won't say it solved all my issues, but it definitely got me going in the right direction.
motosmith wrote:
Were you losing around the door seals? I can feel the wind blow around my door sometimes. I need to replace all the seals but that...
Were you losing around the door seals? I can feel the wind blow around my door sometimes. I need to replace all the seals but that takes time I dont have.
I had already replaced the door seals by the time they had come out, so I was good there. I was losing a lot of heat where my vaulted ceiling meets the walls in my living room as well as through the floor of my living room (only room in my house on a crawlspace, everything else is above basement). I removed all the trim and caulked where the wall and ceiling meet to seal up any air gaps and that helped a decent amount. Plan to have my crawl space sprayed when it warms up enough.
honda907
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Chesterfield, SC US
3/8/2019 10:25am Edited Date/Time 3/8/2019 10:48am
@907 my house isn’t a spec home. I live out in no mans land. Farm fields all around. No developments. Not many neighbors. I need to...
@907 my house isn’t a spec home. I live out in no mans land. Farm fields all around. No developments. Not many neighbors.

I need to re look at my insulation as well. There are some things the last owner did half assed. And I’m stuck cleaning up their mess. Structurally this place is sound and well built it’s the finish work they fucked off on. And it’s starting to piss me off. finding shit weekly. My old house was buttoned up and neat. Nothing was beat. Door jambs are fucked in this house. I need to replace the doors. Etc.

Had an old wooden deck that rotted. They ripped it out. Replaced with walmonized wood where it flushed up to the house and didn’t insulate. Found that out when I tore the carpet up and replaced some plywood and insulated. Then installed new floor. My bay window i crawled under the other day, I can tell they tore the bottom off with the deck Put up 1/2 inch foam board and racked up new plywood and said fuck it. I’m losing a lot of heat right there.

Dumbasses painted all this beautiful poplar baseboards white. Makes me sick. When I pulled some off it’s a great dark wood.

Replaced all door knobs in the house. They spray painted them black. Different color light switches. Some white. Some cream in the same receptacle. People really know how to fuck shit up.

Holes in all the walls. Like just pounded shit into the wall 5-6 nails wide until they found a stud. Covered it up. Like 100 Pin holes from a poster sticking teenager. Took me 8 hours with sheet rock 45 to fix room.

Sucks when you’re looking at a house you don’t really notice all the finish shit until you’re fixing it.
If the finish work is "fucked off on" as you stated, then the rest of it may be compromised. Most builders, although not all, will always do great finish work and skimp other places. Just the way it is. Back in the crazy building days pre 2008, we had contractors tell us "That price for the heating and cooling system is just to high! I can't fit it in the budget because we have $40,000 in mahogany trim to install!" So guess what gets compromised. Not the mahogany trim. We stayed away from most of the cookie cutter builders, who have since gone out of business.

If you only need 4 tons of cooling in the summer, a 5 ton system won't be comfortable, since it won't run long enough to dehumidify air. It will cool it fast, but not get the humidity out since the actual running time of the compressor will be less, so it won't remove as much humidity. In Arizona, that isn't a problem. Around here it is. That's why houses have 1.5 ton through 5 ton residential units, plus many times a separate unit for a house with two floors. There is more too it than that, but that gives you an idea what is going on in the AC mode. If you buy a 2 stage model, or an inverter system, then forget what I just said.

You also lived there during the summer, but your bills must of been OK. So really, you just need a higher efficiency Heat pump. Don't really concentrate on SEER, as HSPF is the more important number for winter use. HEATING SEASONAL PERFORMANCE FACTOR. Just know this: the higher the SEER or HSPF, the cheaper to operate. Equate SEER like MPG. The higher the number , the more efficient.

Best bet, and least expensive, is one of those Bryant or Mitsubishi mini split systems. Use it as supplemental heat when cold AND heat and cool your largest area! Man, the new Bryant (or carrier, same company with a different name) are 42 SEER, like 3 times ( Yours is 13 SEER) more efficient than your system now. I'm building a house at Club MX and I'm putting 4 of them (9,000 each) them through out the house. I figure my electric-bill for my 1500 SF house with a 3 car garage (also heated and cooled) will run about 90 bucks a month in the summer with a heat pump hot water heater.

Your Model Number on your HP is 4HP13L48P Refrigerant is R410 A, 13 Seer, 48,000 BTU ( 4 ton)

https://www.bryant.com/bryant/en/us/products/ductless-systems/38mpra/


PM me something and I'll tell you what I would do. Those BOSCH Inverter driven Heat pumps ( conventional systems like yours) are very, very good replacement heat pumps. We sell a lot of them
1
plowboy
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Norwich, KS US
3/9/2019 4:01pm
Cry me a river fellas. I bought this big old rambler only to find out it was two different old farm houses moved into town and attached. Later, a mother-in-law was added on. That part was then gutted and turned into a garage. The half basement was dug later. What a Frankenstein mess. The water comes in iron pipe to copper to pvc to pex. Every year I pray for a tornado.
2
3/30/2019 6:27am
Bill 218 this month. That’s reasonable in my opinion for an all electric house. The only way I’m gonna salvage the electric bill is backing it up with natural gas like proposed before. Once that temp drops to under 20 my pump
Never shuts off. And the heat coil must always be burning red. that electric coil really sucks up the energy.
FLmxer
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3/30/2019 8:07am Edited Date/Time 3/30/2019 8:39am
We put in new efficient rheem 3tons and new efficient pool pump and heater and efficient lights and ours comes down to around 800 during summer and averages 1100 in winter. Really sucks. It not easy having fun. I have a few heated animal habitats and ponds that draw some power.
reded
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3/30/2019 8:22am Edited Date/Time 3/30/2019 8:22am
FLmxer wrote:
We put in new efficient rheem 3tons and new efficient pool pump and heater and efficient lights and ours comes down to around 800 during summer...
We put in new efficient rheem 3tons and new efficient pool pump and heater and efficient lights and ours comes down to around 800 during summer and averages 1100 in winter. Really sucks. It not easy having fun. I have a few heated animal habitats and ponds that draw some power.
Damn man, your elec bill is as much as my house payment!
FLmxer
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3/30/2019 8:53am
FLmxer wrote:
We put in new efficient rheem 3tons and new efficient pool pump and heater and efficient lights and ours comes down to around 800 during summer...
We put in new efficient rheem 3tons and new efficient pool pump and heater and efficient lights and ours comes down to around 800 during summer and averages 1100 in winter. Really sucks. It not easy having fun. I have a few heated animal habitats and ponds that draw some power.
reded wrote:
Damn man, your elec bill is as much as my house payment!
I know, its rough. Our rental properties average $100 a month. Also our neutral coming from pole has always been a problem apparently as it has been repaired a few times and it cooked our jacuzzi and 2 microwaves over the years. They just ran a temp line at 11pm recently when my power was surging and lights flashing and will be back to replace all lines in a pipe underground any day. That will be interesting as I just put in a bunch of walkways around my property. Lots of obstacles for them. Hopefully it helps lower the bill but doubt it.
tcannon521
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3/30/2019 9:46am Edited Date/Time 3/30/2019 9:48am
FLmxer wrote:
We put in new efficient rheem 3tons and new efficient pool pump and heater and efficient lights and ours comes down to around 800 during summer...
We put in new efficient rheem 3tons and new efficient pool pump and heater and efficient lights and ours comes down to around 800 during summer and averages 1100 in winter. Really sucks. It not easy having fun. I have a few heated animal habitats and ponds that draw some power.
I would invest in solar ASAP. Your return on investment would be great!


Just curious, what is your cost per kw/h?
3/30/2019 10:30am
motogrady wrote:
[img]https://p.vitalmx.com/photos/forums/2019/02/20/326667/s1200_C00D7377_DEFF_4FF0_B05D_CCCC76B98AB8.jpg[/img]


So that’s what they looked like originally
FLmxer
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3/30/2019 11:00am Edited Date/Time 3/30/2019 11:03am
tcannon521 wrote:
I would invest in solar ASAP. Your return on investment would be great!


Just curious, what is your cost per kw/h?
We are moving soon (ish) and building all new and going to do solar. It is very popular in the area we are looking and next to what I believe is one of the first complete solar communities.

motogrady
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3/30/2019 11:16am
motogrady wrote:
[img]https://p.vitalmx.com/photos/forums/2019/02/20/326667/s1200_C00D7377_DEFF_4FF0_B05D_CCCC76B98AB8.jpg[/img]


So that’s what they looked like originally [img]https://p.vitalmx.com/photos/forums/2019/03/30/335048/s1200_59A8EA2C_5062_44C5_A9CC_1716A5638C10.jpg[/img]
So that’s what they looked like originally
Well, originally there would have been a pile of coal
right next to it, and no water heater. The square hole holding the gas burner would have been a cast iron door. You opened it, shoveled the coal in and poof. Heat.

I tell you 2stroke, that's a pretty current look at what is going on out there right now. That's a big house with 2 complete systems. Maybe upstairs and downstairs. Or, 2 apartments, or stores.
Someone just replaced both water heaters. Good job really, imo. Notice the small white expansion tank. Should be on there but a lot of times isn't.
Hard copper soldered in all the way to the tanks.
He could have went to plastic, used shark bite fittings that just slide on and not even had to get the torch off the truck. Much quicker:easier. A lot of that going on, you'd be surprised how many guys out there can't sweat copper.

FLmxer
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3/30/2019 11:52am
I soldered the threaded ends on my and my neighbors hot water heaters ten years ago and just switched mine out a few days ago in ten minutes. So easy, just unscrew hoses, new power plug and ready to go. So glad I did that instead of copper all the way.
tcannon521
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3/30/2019 12:33pm
tcannon521 wrote:
I would invest in solar ASAP. Your return on investment would be great!


Just curious, what is your cost per kw/h?
FLmxer wrote:
We are moving soon (ish) and building all new and going to do solar. It is very popular in the area we are looking and next...
We are moving soon (ish) and building all new and going to do solar. It is very popular in the area we are looking and next to what I believe is one of the first complete solar communities.

Your rates are really cheap! In my area they are double that, so your bill would be $1,600-$2200...

Solar is a good investment now with most covering the initial cost within 5-9 years depending on installation costs.
1
3/30/2019 12:37pm
motogrady wrote:
[img]https://p.vitalmx.com/photos/forums/2019/02/20/326667/s1200_C00D7377_DEFF_4FF0_B05D_CCCC76B98AB8.jpg[/img]


So that’s what they looked like originally [img]https://p.vitalmx.com/photos/forums/2019/03/30/335048/s1200_59A8EA2C_5062_44C5_A9CC_1716A5638C10.jpg[/img]
So that’s what they looked like originally
motogrady wrote:
Well, originally there would have been a pile of coal right next to it, and no water heater. The square hole holding the gas burner would...
Well, originally there would have been a pile of coal
right next to it, and no water heater. The square hole holding the gas burner would have been a cast iron door. You opened it, shoveled the coal in and poof. Heat.

I tell you 2stroke, that's a pretty current look at what is going on out there right now. That's a big house with 2 complete systems. Maybe upstairs and downstairs. Or, 2 apartments, or stores.
Someone just replaced both water heaters. Good job really, imo. Notice the small white expansion tank. Should be on there but a lot of times isn't.
Hard copper soldered in all the way to the tanks.
He could have went to plastic, used shark bite fittings that just slide on and not even had to get the torch off the truck. Much quicker:easier. A lot of that going on, you'd be surprised how many guys out there can't sweat copper.

Thanks. I installed those water heater’s. That’s my two family building in STL. Never seen the old coal heater. I always solder or thread pipe fittings.
motogrady
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WV US
3/30/2019 1:24pm
Flmxr/2stroke. Ya, there it is.
Arguments for both sides.
I try and sweat em in, and I have resisted going the shark bite route. But it's more work. Need more stuff. Takes more time. And if you have a leak it's like, o foc, I gotta drain this thing, where is that garden hose . On the other hand all copper come on, it has to be better.

All I'm gonna say is I keep 2 sets of those SS braided hoses, 1/2 and 3/4, on the truck. The 2 foot long ones. That bolt right up to the tank and slip on the copper pipe.Smile
FLmxer
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3/30/2019 6:30pm
So I hear a loud clank in my new water heater every few hours since the neutral issue. Well it blew the breaker so I checked continuity and found that the top element was bad. I pulled it out and it was destroyed. Like it split and melted from the surge. Same thing happened to my jacuzzi pump when the neural went bad the first time. I threw a new element in and good to go but man what a crazy issue. Glad they are putting all new lines in a new pipe all the way. The first issue was a fence installed before I moved here that had a post knick the line and finally failed over time.


motogrady
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WV US
3/31/2019 1:33pm
Electricitah is some crazy stuff
Don't u know it. After seeing the size of the wires feeding the heaters in a hot tub, and the circuit breakers, it's like, I ain't gettin in that thing.
1

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