Hvac electric heat pump. (bill update holy crap) update again!!

My shits set to 60 lol. Im a cheap prick though so 72 is outta the question ?

I think the heat pump is only good to about 32F outside air temp...then your unit goes "emergency" mode. It's then basically just a conventional electric heat unit. I have gas and it "feels" warmer in the house than electric units I've had previously. There are some heat/air guys on here that may be able to give advice.

Depends entirely on the heat pump. (Along with the installation). There are good ones & bad ones. And a lot of advancements the last few short years.

How old is it? If it's as old as the house, it's a dinosaur & a new one might pay off.

We got a pair of new mini-splits in November. Ductless. They kick out serious heat at temps well below freezing.

GeorgiePorgie wrote:

Old house was a natural gas furnace. Loved it. Nice comfy hot air. Furnace would kick on and off. Vents felt warm.

New house has an electric heat pump. It continuously runs. My house feels cold. It’s irritating to me. It’s not comfortable to me. I feel like I’m just laying under a fan and I hate fans. The air out of vents feel cold. Every once in a while it will blow warm.

Thermostat is set to 72. It says it’s 72. But damn I Kept my old house at 67 and it felt warmer at the old house. .

Makes me want to rip this out and go back to natural gas. This system sucks. Who cares about efficiency if you can’t be comfortable in your home ? ?? Any thoughts or tips for these systems ? Am I doing something wrong ?!

House is 1999 construction. Well insulated. I live in Ohio. It’s probabky 20 degrees out now. I’ve even got my wood fireplace roaring and i still feel cold. It annoying. If this house is gonna feel hot in the summer I’m going to be royally pissed.

I notice the same thing and I have an old gas floor heater. There are times when I feel cold and my thermometer says it's 69. Other times I hear the heater kick on and the room is 65 and I turn it off because I'm not cold. I'm also noticing that as I get older, being cold bothers me more.

If the unit is newer, rather than rip the whole thing out and start over, I would look into seeing about having gas back up added to it. When it gets too cold outside for the heat pump alone to keep up, it will kick in the gas heat rather than the electric heat strip you currently have. That would give you that "warm" feeling you are looking for.
Also- I know you said you hate fans, but having your ceiling fans turning the correct way and running in winter does wonders for helping your house FEEL warmer.

If your heat pump is set properly, your house will stay as cool as you want in the summer and your electric bills are going to be way less than a conventional AC system.

What part of the country do you live in? Can you check and post the model number of the Ahu & Hp? They are located on the sticker on the door of the ahu and the sticker on the HP is usually located where the valves are.
- Possibly the units are old 10 seer, single stage construction grade equipment.
- Humidity level inside could make it feel colder than it actually is.
- Gas heat will definitely feel hotter coming out of the vents.
- Gas heat will dry the air out much more than a HP.

This is supposedly a decent system. House is 2500 square foot up. 900 finished down. And 400 unfinished. System was put in, in 2016 I believe.

Emer never comes on. But this 2+ keeps flashing. And when that flashes the air is very warm. Must be the electric element kicking on? And not the pump using the air. Can’t see how this thing will keep up in January and February.

I can get natural gas to my house. Currently I’m all electric. My electric bill last month was $304. I’d keep it colder in here but we have a baby. But like I said before, 72 feels colder than 67 in my previous home built around same time well insulated with natural gas furnace.

I’ve been burning as well. Not sure if it’s even helping! This system never shuts off. Constantly blowing air. My old gas furnace used to kick on heat the house in a matter of minutes. Kick off and maintain for a long while. Gas bill was always cheap. Never got above $110 in the coldest months. But that house was 1700 square feet. This place is quite a bit larger.




I’m ready to get a gas line put in, and add a gas insert to this fireplace with a nice blower. Probably losing so much heat out of the chimney.

footglove wrote:

If the unit is newer, rather than rip the whole thing out and start over, I would look into seeing about having gas back up added to it. When it gets too cold outside for the heat pump alone to keep up, it will kick in the gas heat rather than the electric heat strip you currently have. That would give you that "warm" feeling you are looking for.
Also- I know you said you hate fans, but having your ceiling fans turning the correct way and running in winter does wonders for helping your house FEEL warmer.

If your heat pump is set properly, your house will stay as cool as you want in the summer and your electric bills are going to be way less than a conventional AC system.

What makes the heat pump so much cheaper to run than a conventional ac in the summer?

Your fireplace isn't much of a heater. More of an ambiance thing, than a heat thing. It is actually likely costing you heat, and might be contributing to the 'cool draft' effect - fireplaces like that suck an enormous amount of (heated) air up the chimney. Which needs to be replaced by cold air coming in somewhere from the outside. I'd do a wood insert in the fireplace, if I wanted to keep on with the wood. Pretty sure there are better heating capable heat pumps you could be using too, that one might have been put in more for a/c than heat. But then you get into $$ spent vs. return. If I could get gas there, I am pretty sure I would. Can't get it here, wish I could.

EDIT: that is also a pretty poor install & insulation job on those linesets. Each line should be separate & insulated - looks like they just tied them together & then put plain pipe insulation around the works? Getting that re-done right would be low hanging fruit. Not sure how much it will improve your overall situation but I would do it anyway.

That's a 4 ton heat pump. It should be big enough. I'm doing 2200 with a 3 ton, The emergency heaters and plus 2 are the same thing. In regular heat, like the stat shows, that thing will try and heat the house on heat pump only. Which is by reversing the way the freon goes, opposite from air conditioning. That's all a heat pump is. An air conditioner that has the ability to reverse the flow of freon,

When it gets below, I dunno, say 30 degrees outside, the heat that thing can capture and pump inside diminishes rather quickly, to the point it can't keep up. The house is losing more heat because it's colder, there's less heat outside to capture and pump in, and poof, the inside temp starts to fall.

So, when the room temp drops 3 degrees from what the stat is set at, boom, the electric heaters in the basement come on. But, by the time they can catch up, the room temp might fall another degree or 2. That's why, set at 73, you might
see the room temp, especially if it's windy and there is a good bit of wind infiltration going on, drop to 68 or 69.

Another thing, a gas, oil or electric furnace will have a temperature rise of 30 to 70 degrees when the room air goes thru it. A heat pump is just an airconditioner, running in reverse. Which give a 20 degree rise in heating, and 20 degree drop in cooling.

So, if the room temp is set at 73, the max temp a heat pump is gonna deliver at the registers is 93. Which is 5 degrees colder than your skin. It's still adding heat. It's just colder than your skin, and feels cold. A gas or oil furnace, Hell, sometimes you will get 140 out of the vents, much hotter than your skin.

Now, if the heat pump is not working correctly, you can get fooled. If it's low on freon, or the compresser, the pump that pumps the freon isn't pumping, you will have no heat until the place drops the 3 degrees and the electric heat comes in.
The blower in the basement will still blow air, the fan in the outdoor unit will still spin, but that thing will not be pumping freon, and not move any heat. You can check this by peeling or cutting a slit in the black insulation covering the copper
refrigerant line maybe a foot before it goes into the cabinet of the basement unit. You have some blue tape on it. It's not gonna hurt anything, it's there to keep that line from sweating in air conditioning in the summer.
In heat mode, anywhere above 30 outside, it should be hot. If it isn't, something is amiss in the outdoor unit.
You get down to 20, 10 degrees outside, it should still be warm.

Remember, to get good bills, the trick is trying to stay off the electric heaters as much as possible. Electric heaters cost 3 times to deliver the same amount of heat as a properly running heat pump. 300 for a month of all electric house is great this time of year. Mine was 419 last month.

The fireplace. Unless it is a sealed unit, that is, glass doors with a 4 or 5 inch pipe drawing outside air to feed the flame, that thing is sucking heated air from the inside and throwing it up the flue.

I dunno Georgie. Maybe check that refrigerant line to make sure the heat pump is working correctly. Kick the stat up to 74. Shut that fireplace down and close the damper off. Make sure u don't feel a lot of draft around the windows and doors. Keep a clean air filter in that big ass media filter u have. 300 for lights, cooking, tv, refrigerator and heat is pretty good for 2500 sq ft. U have room to up that thermostat a degree or 2 and still have a reasonable bill, by any means.

Some have found adding a duct mounted humidifier helps. But, if you do the above, and still don't like it, bite the bullet like Foot says. Get natural gas run in. Imo, that's the best way to heat a house. Rip out that inside unit, put in a 95% gas furnace, wire that into the existing heat pump and have it so the heat pump heats down to maybe 35 outside.
Here, the heat pump is still putting out good heat, and is still cheaper than gas. Any lower, you start getting issues,
At that point, there are a few ways to shut off the outdoor unit, the heat pump, and automatically bring the new gas furnace in. Don't matter how cold it gets outside, gas will give good heat, 20, 30 degrees above skin temp.

Remember, to do this, is gonna run you 5 to 8 grand. The gas line, maybe 2. The furnace, maybe 3. You would want to change over any appliance, like that generator, to natural gas I would think. That will cost someone.

Or, just crank that thing up to 74, shut the fireplace down, and forget about it.

Sorry about the rant.......it's just this can be a bit complex a situation, with a lot of money on the line, hoe it helps you.

footglove wrote:

If the unit is newer, rather than rip the whole thing out and start over, I would look into seeing about having gas back up added to it. When it gets too cold outside for the heat pump alone to keep up, it will kick in the gas heat rather than the electric heat strip you currently have. That would give you that "warm" feeling you are looking for.
Also- I know you said you hate fans, but having your ceiling fans turning the correct way and running in winter does wonders for helping your house FEEL warmer.

If your heat pump is set properly, your house will stay as cool as you want in the summer and your electric bills are going to be way less than a conventional AC system.

early wrote:

What makes the heat pump so much cheaper to run than a conventional ac in the summer?

They don't.

ns503 wrote:

Your fireplace isn't much of a heater. More of an ambiance thing, than a heat thing. It is actually likely costing you heat, and might be contributing to the 'cool draft' effect - fireplaces like that suck an enormous amount of (heated) air up the chimney. Which needs to be replaced by cold air coming in somewhere from the outside. I'd do a wood insert in the fireplace, if I wanted to keep on with the wood. Pretty sure there are better heating capable heat pumps you could be using too, that one might have been put in more for a/c than heat. But then you get into $$ spent vs. return. If I could get gas there, I am pretty sure I would. Can't get it here, wish I could.

EDIT: that is also a pretty poor install & insulation job on those linesets. Each line should be separate & insulated - looks like they just tied them together & then put plain pipe insulation around the works? Getting that re-done right would be low hanging fruit. Not sure how much it will improve your overall situation but I would do it anyway.

You size a heat pump for the cooling load. Some just add enough electric strip to bring capacity up to what the heat load, which is usually higher in that area than cooling. The reason being, most all conventional heat pumps lose capacity at 30 degrees outside. Don't matter how much you oversized.

There is new stuff out there, heat pump wise, that will go to minus 15 outside without any help from electric strip heaters. The Mitsubishi, Sanyo and Fugitsu mini split duct heat pumps don't have electric back up. And they are bringing out that technology to the conventional stuff, like Georgie and myself have.

Ok. Gonna let this fire snuff out and seal out the flu.

I’ve got another fireplace in the basement. I wonder if I plum gas line in and do gas insert fireplaces if it would be fine during the coldest months to supplement this heat pump debacle. But even then I’m sure the inserts are going to be pricey. Plus my wife hates cooking on electric. She wants her natural gas range back. Natural gas is nice. The heat is comfortable. I just don’t like drafty/air movement and the air being warm but not as warm as my skin makes sense. Thanks for the info. If anyone else has opinions feel free to post.


Seems like this heat pump is maintaining. Because it doesn’t kick on 2+ a lot. Happens Rarely. And this temp isn’t dropping by 3 degrees.

Once I crank it to 74 the bill increase would be negligible I’d imagine ? The emergency and 2+ setting are what’s gonna kill my bills.

GeorgiePorgie wrote:

Ok. Gonna let this fire snuff out and seal out the flu.

I’ve got another fireplace in the basement. I wonder if I plum gas line in and do gas insert fireplaces if it would be fine during the coldest months to supplement this heat pump debacle. But even then I’m sure the inserts are going to be pricey. Plus my wife hates cooking on electric. She wants her natural gas range back. Natural gas is nice. The heat is comfortable. I just don’t like drafty/air movement and the air being warm but not as warm as my skin makes sense. Thanks for the info. If anyone else has opinions feel free to post.


Seems like this heat pump is maintaining. Because it doesn’t kick on 2+ a lot. Happens Rarely. And this temp isn’t dropping by 3 degrees.

Once I crank it to 74 the bill increase would be negligible I’d imagine ? The emergency and 2+ setting are what’s gonna kill my bills.

And that's why Georgie you just set that thing up a bit a forget about it. Some raise and lower each night/day, which
with gas or oil works. But, with a heat pump with electric back up that brings in electric 30 more times a month,
killing the bill.

I know, it's crazy. Guys like me and you know, there's a a piston pumping out there, and 2 fans running, almost constantly. How could it possibly be a good thing, how can it save. But it does.

Another thing to consider, and it's a kind of dirty little secret, not a lot of HVAC guys realize or talk about.
Is wear and tear on the equipment.

I've noticed, over the years, you are lucky to get, 10, 12 years out of a lot of heat pumps. Because they run all winter,
a bit in fall and spring, and most of the summer. And I don't care what they say, winters are hard on them. The conditions can get atrocious. I'd like to see an hour meter chart on the difference between straight ac with a furnace vs heat pump and electric.

I tell people in Georgie's situation, run the heck out of it, start saving, and when a major repair is needed on the heat pump, change it over to gas then.

Good gas furnace with ac, shoot, not uncommon to see them go 25 years.

ns503 wrote:

Your fireplace isn't much of a heater. More of an ambiance thing, than a heat thing. It is actually likely costing you heat, and might be contributing to the 'cool draft' effect - fireplaces like that suck an enormous amount of (heated) air up the chimney. Which needs to be replaced by cold air coming in somewhere from the outside. I'd do a wood insert in the fireplace, if I wanted to keep on with the wood. Pretty sure there are better heating capable heat pumps you could be using too, that one might have been put in more for a/c than heat. But then you get into $$ spent vs. return. If I could get gas there, I am pretty sure I would. Can't get it here, wish I could.

EDIT: that is also a pretty poor install & insulation job on those linesets. Each line should be separate & insulated - looks like they just tied them together & then put plain pipe insulation around the works? Getting that re-done right would be low hanging fruit. Not sure how much it will improve your overall situation but I would do it anyway.

If it was a minisplit both lines should be insulated but a split system like that, the liquid line doesn't need to be insulated, just the suction line

HD1200 wrote:

If it was a minisplit both lines should be insulated but a split system like that, the liquid line doesn't need to be insulated, just the suction line

Aren't they both suction lines depending on heat or cooling?

motogrady wrote:
That's a 4 ton heat pump. It should be big enough. I'm doing 2200 with a 3 ton, The emergency heaters and plus 2 are the same thing. In regular heat, like the stat shows, that thing will try and heat the house on heat pump only. Which is by reversing the way the freon goes, opposite from air conditioning. That's all a heat pump is. An air conditioner that has the ability to reverse the flow of freon,

When it gets below, I dunno, say 30 degrees outside, the heat that thing can capture and pump inside diminishes rather quickly, to the point it can't keep up. The house is losing more heat because it's colder, there's less heat outside to capture and pump in, and poof, the inside temp starts to fall.

So, when the room temp drops 3 degrees from what the stat is set at, boom, the electric heaters in the basement come on. But, by the time they can catch up, the room temp might fall another degree or 2. That's why, set at 73, you might
see the room temp, especially if it's windy and there is a good bit of wind infiltration going on, drop to 68 or 69.

Another thing, a gas, oil or electric furnace will have a temperature rise of 30 to 70 degrees when the room air goes thru it. A heat pump is just an airconditioner, running in reverse. Which give a 20 degree rise in heating, and 20 degree drop in cooling.

So, if the room temp is set at 73, the max temp a heat pump is gonna deliver at the registers is 93. Which is 5 degrees colder than your skin. It's still adding heat. It's just colder than your skin, and feels cold. A gas or oil furnace, Hell, sometimes you will get 140 out of the vents, much hotter than your skin.

Now, if the heat pump is not working correctly, you can get fooled. If it's low on freon, or the compresser, the pump that pumps the freon isn't pumping, you will have no heat until the place drops the 3 degrees and the electric heat comes in.
The blower in the basement will still blow air, the fan in the outdoor unit will still spin, but that thing will not be pumping freon, and not move any heat. You can check this by peeling or cutting a slit in the black insulation covering the copper
refrigerant line maybe a foot before it goes into the cabinet of the basement unit. You have some blue tape on it. It's not gonna hurt anything, it's there to keep that line from sweating in air conditioning in the summer.
In heat mode, anywhere above 30 outside, it should be hot. If it isn't, something is amiss in the outdoor unit.
You get down to 20, 10 degrees outside, it should still be warm.

Remember, to get good bills, the trick is trying to stay off the electric heaters as much as possible. Electric heaters cost 3 times to deliver the same amount of heat as a properly running heat pump. 300 for a month of all electric house is great this time of year. Mine was 419 last month.

The fireplace. Unless it is a sealed unit, that is, glass doors with a 4 or 5 inch pipe drawing outside air to feed the flame, that thing is sucking heated air from the inside and throwing it up the flue.

I dunno Georgie. Maybe check that refrigerant line to make sure the heat pump is working correctly. Kick the stat up to 74. Shut that fireplace down and close the damper off. Make sure u don't feel a lot of draft around the windows and doors. Keep a clean air filter in that big ass media filter u have. 300 for lights, cooking, tv, refrigerator and heat is pretty good for 2500 sq ft. U have room to up that thermostat a degree or 2 and still have a reasonable bill, by any means.

Some have found adding a duct mounted humidifier helps. But, if you do the above, and still don't like it, bite the bullet like Foot says. Get natural gas run in. Imo, that's the best way to heat a house. Rip out that inside unit, put in a 95% gas furnace, wire that into the existing heat pump and have it so the heat pump heats down to maybe 35 outside.
Here, the heat pump is still putting out good heat, and is still cheaper than gas. Any lower, you start getting issues,
At that point, there are a few ways to shut off the outdoor unit, the heat pump, and automatically bring the new gas furnace in. Don't matter how cold it gets outside, gas will give good heat, 20, 30 degrees above skin temp.

Remember, to do this, is gonna run you 5 to 8 grand. The gas line, maybe 2. The furnace, maybe 3. You would want to change over any appliance, like that generator, to natural gas I would think. That will cost someone.

Or, just crank that thing up to 74, shut the fireplace down, and forget about it.

Sorry about the rant.......it's just this can be a bit complex a situation, with a lot of money on the line, hoe it helps you.

^^^ This! motogrady is spot on.
Possibly a humidifier/dehumidifier system could help.

ns503 wrote:

Your fireplace isn't much of a heater. More of an ambiance thing, than a heat thing. It is actually likely costing you heat, and might be contributing to the 'cool draft' effect - fireplaces like that suck an enormous amount of (heated) air up the chimney. Which needs to be replaced by cold air coming in somewhere from the outside. I'd do a wood insert in the fireplace, if I wanted to keep on with the wood. Pretty sure there are better heating capable heat pumps you could be using too, that one might have been put in more for a/c than heat. But then you get into $$ spent vs. return. If I could get gas there, I am pretty sure I would. Can't get it here, wish I could.

EDIT: that is also a pretty poor install & insulation job on those linesets. Each line should be separate & insulated - looks like they just tied them together & then put plain pipe insulation around the works? Getting that re-done right would be low hanging fruit. Not sure how much it will improve your overall situation but I would do it anyway.

HD1200 wrote:

If it was a minisplit both lines should be insulated but a split system like that, the liquid line doesn't need to be insulated, just the suction line

early wrote:

Aren't they both suction lines depending on heat or cooling?

Yeah, they are. But, the metering device that sprays liquid to vapor is working outside in heat pump mode.
You are evaporating refrigerant outside, and creating condensate outside, not inside. In heat pump mode, the indoor coil is the condenser, that's turning vapor to liquid, getting hot, dumping heat. It's leftover heat that keeps both lines warm, not needing wrap to stop condensation on the pipe.

Some manufactures wrap both to help with performance, saying you lose a bit thru the line.

“I know, it's crazy. Guys like me and you know, there's a a piston pumping out there, and 2 fans running, almost constantly. How could it possibly be a good thing, how can it save. But it does.”

lol I was bitchin to my wife the other day along the lines of “the damn electric bill is so freakin high because that blower just continues to run. The system doesn’t get a break!!!” That’s why I started burning up the wood. I was hoping it would produce enough heat to give the system a break.

But this is a different type of thinking though. Makes sense now. I’m actually making the system work harder because the damn chimney is just sucking the heat right out of my house.

There’s a vocational school not far from my house I should take their hvac program and industrial maintenance classes. Probably would save me a lot of money down the road knowing more about this stuff. Compared to my “college” education the pricing for these voed courses is dirt cheap!

1959 Gas hot water /radiator system.
No electronics, just a thermocouple, burners a huge radiator filled with water and an upgraded blend valve.

House: 1900 little to no insulation in the walls, new windows.

Constant 68 degrees unless it dips to minus temps and high winds. ( we live on top of a hill so its always windy)
The furnace cones on to maintain the 190 degrees in the boiler then turns off and the 110v circulation pump runs till the temp is met and so on.

Gas bill for the house and my shop which I keep at 60 degrees is cheap/

GO GAS !!!

Fire place doesn't do any good to heat the place. In fact it probably loses more heat than it produces. I would recommend a pellet stove for supplemental heat.

Moved into my first natural gas heated house 4 years ago. Winter is just a minor inconvenience now compared to messing with ridiculous oil or electric bills or cutting and chopping wood.

Hey guys, here's one for ya.

Believe it or not, I still see theses deals out there from time to time.
This used to be a coal or woof fired furnace. No blower, no thermostat, nothing. Just put the wood in it, get it going, and the heat would rise naturally up thru the house. That's why the ducts were so big. The ones coming out of the top are supply ducts, the bigger ones going to the bottom are return air ducts.
In its day, this was a Cadillac type of system.

Someone converted it to gas years ago, might have installed a small blower and thermostat also.

Biggest problem with this old stuff, asbestos. They are usually full of it. The white tape on the supply ducts, asbestos. It's like from the 30s to the 60s they just went crazy with it.

Yeah, today's stuff has its issues. But just think what it was like for a guy back then. Get up, shovel that coal in a freezing basement, wait 2 hours for it to get going, then sweat your ass off when it got so hot it was t shirt time till u went to bed. Next day, repeat.

The good old days, my ass!