For you farmer mechanics, and just mechanics in general...

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3/21/2018 2:54 PM

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3/21/2018 3:48 PM

Yep, a lot of big companies watching this (Apple etc) and the farmers down here are keeping a close eye on it too. A dealership call out fee down here can be up to $1000 due to distance and lack of dealerships.

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3/21/2018 4:10 PM
Edited Date/Time: 3/21/2018 4:11 PM

This is one of the reasons why the US passed the OBDII law in the early 1990s.
Every manufacturer had their own communications protocol and unique interface/software.
Leaving everyone at the mercy of the manufactures/dealers.

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3/22/2018 6:46 AM

John Deere is the biggest culprit in how it deals with Ag-tech.

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"We don't rent pigs."

3/22/2018 7:07 AM

Yep, totally sucks. If you buy the unit, even if they claim you are only buying the right to use it,
it seems that you should be able to fix it to "use" it.
TM

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www.alljackedupinc.com home of the Switch Hauler®

3/22/2018 7:30 AM

JAFO92 wrote:

John Deere is the biggest culprit in how it deals with Ag-tech.

How so?

Agco, Case Ih, Claas etc. are all in the same position.

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3/22/2018 9:00 AM

So you're not really buying anything, you're renting it. That's how motorcycles are going as well. Not to mention having to pay for all the electronic crap you may not even want, and have to pay extra for to get it turned off. My 2017 KTM Super Duke 1290 R came with all the electronics on it, and it comes with a factory quick shifter (up and down shift) and ABS. The quick shifter isn't enabled, and you can't turn off ABS or Traction Control with the base price of > $18k. You have to pay extra to have them hook up their computer and punch in the correct access code after you purchase the extra "packs" (flip a 0 to a 1 or a 1 to a 0 in the ECU) and get the code from KTM to have the KTM service tech apply that code, and it only works on that one specific bike. That will enable the quick shifter and more menu options for TC and ABS. Heck I don't think you can even do a wheelie on it without buying those extra packs (disable wheelie control). I don't remember how much all that extra stuff cost me but I believe it was in the 2 to $3k range. I didn't even ride the bike until they installed all that stuff and disabled all the crap I didn't want. Warranty is another peeve of mine. Every little thing you do can void the warranty. I would LOVE if I could buy a bike without all the electronics and with nothing more than 30 day warranty for a much reduced price. I void the warranty the first day I have the bike. But I digress. smile

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3/22/2018 9:25 AM

That was pretty interesting.

We have had to get a tech to come out & plug into our McCormick before. First try he couldn't find his cable when he got here & had to come back another day. Turned out to be a sensor that was a 10 minute fix. Which I think he was suspecting but guess had to verify first - maybe because he had to order the part & wanted to be sure he was ordering the right one. It wasn't an outlandish service call fee, like maybe $100 (half hour each way) - but the $1k mentioned above is into ludicrous territory. If service call fees were reasonable, calling a tech out would be not that big a deal, as long as they could get there in a reasonable amount of time and it led to the problem being fixed. But $1k - that's bordering on extortion stuff.

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HAF

3/22/2018 9:38 AM

mxtech1 wrote:

How so?

Agco, Case Ih, Claas etc. are all in the same position.

As I understand it, big green lead the charge on all this and many of my neighbors with late-model green machines are selling them: they are fed up with John Deere entirely. I dont mind green stuff, as long as its older, looking to get a clean 4040 in the future.

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"We don't rent pigs."

3/22/2018 10:46 AM

JAFO92 wrote:

As I understand it, big green lead the charge on all this and many of my neighbors with late-model green machines are selling ...more

Ag mfg's haven't really done anything different than what was done in the Auto Industry.

In that video, they conveniently left out how Deere and the dealer can remote into the machine diagnostics through ServiceAdvisor and provide the operator with the error codes in a matter of minutes after initiating the call. This is similar for all of the major brands.

Most of the operator-based error codes can already be retrieved through the software diagnostics and service manuals that indicate what the error code means and how to repair it.

The guys that are complaining are the ones who think they should be able to flash their own CU's, software, etc. which is all setup from the factory based on the machine serialization. Again - no different thatn Auto.

There are solutions in motion that should alleviate these issues by 2020.

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3/22/2018 12:56 PM

"Think they should be able to flash their own CU's"? If I pay for something and "own" it I should be able to do whatever I want with it, unless the dealer is paying for every part that gets replaced under warranty and any labor associated with it.

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3/22/2018 1:37 PM

XXVoid MainXX wrote:

"Think they should be able to flash their own CU's"? If I pay for something and "own" it I should be able to do whatever I ...more

You aren't understanding the main issue behind all of this.

System architecture on modern machinery is extremely complex. One large tractor or combine might have several hundred designs that are available and then the order code dictates which components are needed. Each electrical component is then manufactured with a unique scheme that allows the overall architecture to work. I think most customers have the impression that these parts that are just off-the-shelf parts that can be ordered with a phone call. It's not that simple anymore.

Even right now, the highly trained technical staff at dealerships still have to work directly with the OEM to make sure the parts they order (after a diagnoses) are programmed according to the machine's architecture.

I am willing to bet that (on complex repairs) if you put the proper tools in the hand of the farmer/operator, they still aren't going to be able to solve the problem due to the general complexity of the overall system

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3/22/2018 1:41 PM
Edited Date/Time: 3/22/2018 3:23 PM

Actually, I totally understand the problem. The problem is you don't actually own something when you pay money for it and get the title for it. The dealer and manufacturer still own it. And if it needs to be fixed you HAVE to pay the dealer do it, because everything is locked down to keep the owner out of it, for artificial/manufactured reasons. That needs to change. Farmers are pretty smart. They can just as easily run the diagnostics software, see what part has failed, order said part from dealer (or other), and program the part just as easily as the dealer can, if they so choose.

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3/22/2018 1:46 PM
Edited Date/Time: 3/22/2018 1:47 PM

mxtech1 wrote:

You aren't understanding the main issue behind all of this.

System architecture on modern machinery is extremely complex. ...more

All fair points.

I think the "complexity" is as much about making money for the OEM's then it is about productivity or truly providing a better product. It's basically like a black box. And when it stops working the OEM's are the only ones who can fix it. Great business model if you can get away with it.

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3/22/2018 5:51 PM

ns503 wrote:

That was pretty interesting.

We have had to get a tech to come out & plug into our McCormick before. First try he ...more

Some of our large scale broadacre farms can be over 6 hours drive from a dealer. They justify it with man hours/travel, overheads of workshop etc. wouldn’t be an issue if buying equipment meant full access. Old mate above had it right, all we are doing is paying $500k + to rent equipment

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3/28/2018 6:20 PM

Car mechanic friend said to re[place some car door locks, the software is $60.

When I first heard of this, the company mentioned starting it was John Deere.

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3/28/2018 6:46 PM

Sounds like a job opportunity for some tech savvy folks.

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If it ain't yer's don't take it, If it ain't the truth dont say it, If it ain't right don't do it...Marcus Aurelius

3/28/2018 9:33 PM

A similar argument is going on with light duty diesel trucks. I guess I can see merit on both sides of the argument. On one hand the libertarian in me says that if I buy a piece of equipment outright I should be able to do as I please with it. On the other, I do enjoy breathing clean air and am willing to cooperate with the controls in place to ensure the engine is in compliance.

I believe emissions is the crux of the argument here. I don’t think Deere or any other mfg cares if you replace a prox switch for a harvester arm or the dealer does. I do believe they care that the exhaust treatment systems are intact and functioning as designed. Allowing access to engine management systems could lead to something along the lines of the guy in the ‘06 lifted 2500 Ram diesel billowing black smoke out the coffee can exhaust. We’ve all seen them.

For Ag use this is an extreme example, but, when a machine goes into derate in the middle of harvest season because the SCR melted down because an EGR cooler ruptured (have seen this on CAT 982’s multiple times,) the service bill is north of $15k in parts alone, how many operators would go for a delete program and shit can the emission components if it was possible?

It happens with on the road diesels all the time. Guys get hit with sticker shock when things go bad with their trucks. . Tier 4 emissions is basically the equivalent of the newest diesel trucks you can buy off the lot, and Ag and off-road equipment has had it for the last few years.

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3/28/2018 11:07 PM

It's across the board in other industries two. You pay for the physical equipment and then she'll out for upgrades and licensing. In most cases the service tech is only establishing a connection for the oem to troubleshoot remotely.

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3/30/2018 7:01 AM

eeazye wrote:

A similar argument is going on with light duty diesel trucks. I guess I can see merit on both sides of the argument. On one ...more

Believe it or not, its not about emissions. Its about the other eleventy-leven hundred other systems on the tractors.

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"We don't rent pigs."

3/30/2018 9:41 PM

This is the "automotive" side of this currently going through a few state legislatures.

The Motor Vehicle Owners' Right to Repair Act, sometimes also referred to as Right to Repair, is a name for several related proposed bills in the United States Congress and several state legislatures which would require automobile manufacturers to provide the same information to independent repair shops as they do for dealer shops.

Versions of the bill generally have been supported by independent repair and after-market associations and generally opposed by auto manufacturers and dealerships. First considered at the federal level in 2001, but no provisions were adopted until the Massachusetts legislature enacted Right to Repair bill H. 4362 on July 31, 2012. This law was passed in advance of a binding ballot initiative referendum which appeared on Massachusetts's statewide ballot also on November 6. The measure passed with 86% voter support.[1] Because there were now two different laws in effect, the Massachusetts legislature enacted a bill, H. 3757 to reconcile the two laws. That bill was signed into law on November 26, 2013. Early in 2014, the Automotive Aftermarket Industry Association, Coalition for Auto Repair Equality, Alliance of Automobile Manufacturers, and the Association for Global Automakers signed a Memorandum of Understanding that is based on the Massachusetts law and which would commit the vehicle manufacturers to meet the requirements of the Massachusetts law in all fifty states.

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