Counter steering

sumdood
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sumdood
Edited Date/Time 4/27/2017 6:06pm
You guys familiar with this ? The street bike guys will be. Here's a quick history, I've been riding dirt bikes for 48 years, my wife has been riding dirt bikes for 25 years. We recently decided to get a couple dual sports so we signed up for a rider training course. It was 2 days and when you're done you don't have to take the on the bike test at the dmv, and you get a discount on your insurance. Plus I didn't want the dmv poking their snouts too far into the plated wr450 I bought that was grandfathered in before the rules tightened up. Anyway during this class they teach you how to turn, fair enough. But here's where it gets weird. This is straight out of the motorcycle handbook.
"To turn, the motorcycle must lean. To lean the motorcycle, press on the handlegrip in the direction of the turn. Press left-lean left-go left". Press right-lean right-go right". My first thought was that's bass ackwards, to turn left you turn the bars left, which is the total opposite of what they say. So we go out to practice turns, first time I tried it the bike flopped over and scraped the peg, 2nd attempt netted the same result, the bike did indeed flop over quicker than if you made a "Normal" turn. So I understood the theory. Since street bikes are heavier and carry a lot more momentum by initially turning the "wrong" way, it actually forces the bike to lean over quicker than a "regular" turn. Ok seemed confusing at first but I get it. However....lol, I've been trying to explain it to my wife, push the left handlebar ? then you're turning right ? Well yeah...but .... Laughing
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kzizok
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kzizok 4/26/2017 6:50pm
4/26/2017 6:50pm Edited Date/Time 4/26/2017 6:56pm
"To turn, the motorcycle must lean. To lean the motorcycle, press on the handlegrip in the direction of the turn. Press left-lean left-go left". Press right-lean right-go right".

I read that as, press the inside left grip, then go left, and vice versa. That is in contradiction to, push left then turn right, like when explaining it to your wife.

I think Im confused as to how you think press left, turn left is backwards. I mean, isnt that how its always been done?
colintrax
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colintrax 4/26/2017 6:51pm
4/26/2017 6:51pm
Just helps you get it leaned over quicker. Pretty sure we all do it, even on bicycles.
Ebs
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Ebs 4/26/2017 7:26pm
4/26/2017 7:26pm Edited Date/Time 4/26/2017 7:31pm
Did they have a picture of this guy in the book, because I'm pretty sure that's what they're trying to explain:











They just left out how you need to carry twice as much speed as you think it would take to kill you going through the corner so you can really hang the rear end out there.
sumdood
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sumdood 4/26/2017 8:58pm
4/26/2017 8:58pm
kzizok wrote:
"To turn, the motorcycle must lean. To lean the motorcycle, press on the handlegrip in the direction of the turn. Press left-lean left-go left". Press right-lean...
"To turn, the motorcycle must lean. To lean the motorcycle, press on the handlegrip in the direction of the turn. Press left-lean left-go left". Press right-lean right-go right".

I read that as, press the inside left grip, then go left, and vice versa. That is in contradiction to, push left then turn right, like when explaining it to your wife.

I think Im confused as to how you think press left, turn left is backwards. I mean, isnt that how its always been done?
No I meant that's what she was saying, sorry that wasn't clear.

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sumdood
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sumdood 4/26/2017 9:09pm
4/26/2017 9:09pm
colintrax wrote:
Just helps you get it leaned over quicker. Pretty sure we all do it, even on bicycles.
You're probably right, I bet she does it too and doesn't even realize it. The problem is in her thinking when you turn left, you turn the bars to the left, which is the exact opposite of what the handbook says.
kzizok
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kzizok 4/26/2017 9:16pm
4/26/2017 9:16pm Edited Date/Time 4/26/2017 9:31pm
That explanation in the handbook is how to steer, right? Do you still have the handbook? Maybe you thought it was the section of how to counter steer, hence, the confusion? I dont know, just throwing it out there. Her thinking turn the bars left, to turn left is what the handbook says. And then, there is the very real possibility that Im thoroughly confused as to what you are asking.
Falcon
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Falcon 4/26/2017 9:23pm
4/26/2017 9:23pm
Have you ever ridden right next to a fence, wall or other long obstacle? It's hard, because you instinctively try to ride away from it, but you almost can't. It's because you need to turn the handlebars toward the obstacle so you will lean away from it. However, the front tire will then move toward the obstacle.

Counter-steering is how motorcycles turn. You certainly don't "steer" in the direction you want to go. You push on the handlebar on the inside of the turn (which is actually "steering" to the outside.)
sumdood
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sumdood 4/26/2017 9:42pm
4/26/2017 9:42pm
kzizok wrote:
That explanation in the handbook is how to steer, right? Do you still have the handbook? Maybe you thought it was the section of how to...
That explanation in the handbook is how to steer, right? Do you still have the handbook? Maybe you thought it was the section of how to counter steer, hence, the confusion? I dont know, just throwing it out there. Her thinking turn the bars left, to turn left is what the handbook says. And then, there is the very real possibility that Im thoroughly confused as to what you are asking.


sumdood
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sumdood 4/26/2017 9:54pm
4/26/2017 9:54pm
Falcon wrote:
Have you ever ridden right next to a fence, wall or other long obstacle? It's hard, because you instinctively try to ride away from it, but...
Have you ever ridden right next to a fence, wall or other long obstacle? It's hard, because you instinctively try to ride away from it, but you almost can't. It's because you need to turn the handlebars toward the obstacle so you will lean away from it. However, the front tire will then move toward the obstacle.

Counter-steering is how motorcycles turn. You certainly don't "steer" in the direction you want to go. You push on the handlebar on the inside of the turn (which is actually "steering" to the outside.)
Right. Which is a hard concept to grasp if you spent your whole life thinking to turn left, you turn left... Laughing .
71Fish
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71Fish 4/27/2017 4:01am
4/27/2017 4:01am Edited Date/Time 4/27/2017 5:54am
A real easy way to feel the effects of countersteering is to ride one handed.
APLMAN99
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APLMAN99 4/27/2017 5:55am
4/27/2017 5:55am
For most street bike riding, it is a very subtle thing and becomes so natural that putting it into the guide probably does more harm than good. There are probably plenty of folks who read that and exaggerate it like you described on your first attempt.
XXVoid MainXX
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XXVoid MainXX 4/27/2017 6:12am
4/27/2017 6:12am Edited Date/Time 4/27/2017 6:55am
Everyone who rides a bicycle or motorcycle counter steers whether they realize it or not. You turn the bars to the right to go left and turn the bars to the left to go right. If you take your hands off the bars the bike will want to go straight and you have to force it to turn. To force it to lean to the left you have to turn the bars to the right, etc. I grew up riding a bike and didn't realize I was doing that. When I first heard that in my street bike motorcycle safety class in the Air Force in 1981 I told the instructor he was full of shit. Smile

Then I consciously thought about it the next time I rode and I'll be damned if that isn't what I was doing. I put my thumb lock cruise control on and took my hands off the bars and I was going down the road straight. I put a small amount of pressure on the back of the left bar to push it forward (which turned the front wheel to the right) and the bike leaned over to the left and started turning left and I had to keep that pressure to keep it in a turn. I let the pressure off and the bike brings itself back to upright and straight. And you're right, understanding that is what happens can make you better at quick maneuvers. It's one of those things that you do whether you realize it or not.

Now, you "can" turn a motorcycle by leaning only but it's not very effective. I often put the cruize on my bike and take my hands off the bars and lean off the bike to go around shallow corners to give my hands a rest but it's not a very effective way to turn a bike. To get the bike to turn beyond that you "have" to counter steer.
JAFO92
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JAFO92 4/27/2017 6:36am
4/27/2017 6:36am
Rule #1 for dirt trackers.



MotoTribology 4/27/2017 6:45am
4/27/2017 6:45am
JAFO92 wrote:
Rule #1 for dirt trackers. [img]https://p.vitalmx.com/photos/forums/2017/04/27/190917/s1200_Doc_Hudson.jpg[/img]
Rule #1 for dirt trackers.



Darn, I thought I'd win the race to that reference. Oh the leaps a mind takes after having kids!
sumdood
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sumdood 4/27/2017 7:44am
4/27/2017 7:44am
APLMAN99 wrote:
For most street bike riding, it is a very subtle thing and becomes so natural that putting it into the guide probably does more harm than...
For most street bike riding, it is a very subtle thing and becomes so natural that putting it into the guide probably does more harm than good. There are probably plenty of folks who read that and exaggerate it like you described on your first attempt.
Judging by the condition of the bikes in the school I'd say you are right Laughing Like XXvoid said the first time you hear it it makes no sense. And when you read the text in the handbook it makes even less sense. Obviously it works and riders do it without even realizing it, but having ridden pretty much just in the dirt our wholes lives when we first read that we were both like "huh ?, say what ?" lol. I finally said look I know it doesn't make sense, but just know that's the answer for the test. We'll go take the written test, get our licenses, and then we can just go ride the stupid motorcycles like we always have Laughing It was a new concept for us that seemed like it'd be fun to discuss in here. Looking forward to going to be able to ride a lot more places, especially the local mountains where you need to be street legal. The new additions, 2017 XT250 for her, and an 03' WR450 for me.



Ted722
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Ted722 4/27/2017 8:01am
4/27/2017 8:01am Edited Date/Time 4/27/2017 8:23am
APLMAN99 wrote:
For most street bike riding, it is a very subtle thing and becomes so natural that putting it into the guide probably does more harm than...
For most street bike riding, it is a very subtle thing and becomes so natural that putting it into the guide probably does more harm than good. There are probably plenty of folks who read that and exaggerate it like you described on your first attempt.
Yes. It's a very natural thing that most bikers do without knowing. Its effect can be exaggerated as noted. My take away, over the years, is when avoiding an object (deer, squirrel, etc.) or traversing the esses at Sears Point, it's much more effective to lean and apply a slight push on the inside bar in the direction you want to go vs. steering the handlebar (like a car steering wheel).

Riding around in the parking lot? Slow speed in the neighborhood? Steer. Higher speeds? Lean and counter-steer. At higher speeds, there's gyroscopic effects from the wheels that come into play. Keith Code has some examples of this on the net.

So, sumdood you don't have to un-learn anything you've been doing. The manual's just emphasizing (at speed) it's much more effective to lean and apply slight pressure to the direction you want to go vs. steering the handlebars (like a car steering wheel) in that direction.



LoudLove
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LoudLove 4/27/2017 8:29am
4/27/2017 8:29am
As Ted noted, above a certain speed (which varies by bike, wheel size, etc.) you're steering the motorcycle via gyroscopic effect, versus physically "pointing' the wheel in a certain direction. The "push right, turn right" strategy forces the front wheel to "fall" to the right, which "pulls' the bike down in the same direction. The harder/faster the initial push, the faster the bike turns. Once you have established the cornering angle, less pressure is required to maintain the angle.

Cars used the opposite technique, as turning the steering wheel to the right will force the car initially to the right, as a car cannot "fall" into a corner like a motorcycle, Once the drift angle is established, counter-steering is applied to maintain the drift.

Effective countersteering is an essential tool, and can make a rider faster, with less effort. The real fun comes with combining countersteering with other cornering techniques, and finding which combination works best for you.
Homey55
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Homey55 4/27/2017 9:47am
4/27/2017 9:47am


The spinning wheels cause a centrifugal force in the opposite direction that pressure is applied.

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borg
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borg 4/27/2017 10:10am
4/27/2017 10:10am
It's a very momentary action to get the bike to lean. Once the bike leans, you have to correct back to the direction of the turn or you will do exactly what sumdood did, which is go down. I'm not even sure why they would even give that kind of instruction. You learn to do this when you take the training wheels off at 6 or 7 years old. And by using the term "press" I'm guessing that they mean a slight downward pressure which would be a much more subtle action than actually turning the bars to the right. At speed, the actual angular degree of wheel direction from dead straight has to be very slight or you are going to eat it.
LoudLove
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LoudLove 4/27/2017 11:42am
4/27/2017 11:42am
A better word may be "push", versus "press", when applying pressure to the bars. Maybe it's just a mental thing.

A rider can also "pull" the opposite bars/clip-ons (i.e. "Pull Left/Go Right") in conjunction with pushing the opposing grip. This is an effective technique when executing corners at higher speeds, as it helps stabilize the front end while planting the rider's body on the bike. Start by initiating a mild turn by pulling only, then work on finding that happy push/pull balance.

Another tip: press the tank with your outside knee/leg. Now, don't try to put a dent in the tank, just apply light pressure while pushing/pulling. We do this in moto, and it works on the street as well. Plus it helps keep your foot planted on the peg.
Rooster
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Rooster 4/27/2017 2:38pm
4/27/2017 2:38pm
Where teefus and wordnerd when you need them?

They'd argue this one for weeks.
XXVoid MainXX
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XXVoid MainXX 4/27/2017 3:00pm
4/27/2017 3:00pm
borg wrote:
It's a very momentary action to get the bike to lean. Once the bike leans, you have to correct back to the direction of the turn...
It's a very momentary action to get the bike to lean. Once the bike leans, you have to correct back to the direction of the turn or you will do exactly what sumdood did, which is go down. I'm not even sure why they would even give that kind of instruction. You learn to do this when you take the training wheels off at 6 or 7 years old. And by using the term "press" I'm guessing that they mean a slight downward pressure which would be a much more subtle action than actually turning the bars to the right. At speed, the actual angular degree of wheel direction from dead straight has to be very slight or you are going to eat it.
Sorry borg but that is not correct. You have to maintain the pressure to turn the front wheel in the opposite direction of your turn in order to keep it in a turn. As soon as you let off the bike will right itself. You already do this and if you consciously think about it next time you are out on your bike you will see it is true.

Even in this pic where I am hanging off the side of the bike going around the corner I have to continuously hold pressure of turning the front wheel to the right in this left hand corner. If I don't the bike will straighten itself up. Now it won't straighten completely if I am hanging off this far but I have to force the bike to keep this amount of lean by forcing the bars to the right:



I know it's a mind fuck if you haven't thought about it before. It's an automatic thing that "everybody" does who rides a bicycle or motorcycle.
Titan1
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Titan1 4/27/2017 3:19pm
4/27/2017 3:19pm Edited Date/Time 4/27/2017 3:40pm
In high school my brothers girlfriend almost died because she didn't understand counter steering.

Her dad bought a shadow 750...she rode it around town (slow speeds) with him for weeks, getting used to it...eventually the felt she was ready for a canyon ride.

Very first turn, at high way speeds, she can't get the bike to run fast enough...she turns left, trying to turn left...and BAM bike goes right and slams her into a guard rail...it wasn't pretty.

This principal is one of the first things I tell anyone who gets a motorcycle if they've never ridden before.
XXVoid MainXX
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XXVoid MainXX 4/27/2017 3:42pm
4/27/2017 3:42pm Edited Date/Time 4/27/2017 4:06pm
Also, it is the geometry setup of the bike that causes the bike to behave like this. I can change the geometry of my bike to make it easier to turn in, that is, to require less pressure in the opposite direction, by reducing the rake angle and trail but that usually comes with a side problem of instability and you'll be much more susceptible to head shake/tank slappers, so it's a fine balance of many different geometry variables to tune this. If you have to apply pressure to hold the front wheel turning left in a left hand corner your geometry is WAY out of whack. In fact it really wouldn't be possible even going to the adjustable limits of your geometry. The only way you could make it behave in the opposite way would require reversing the angle of your steering head and mounting your fork assembly backwards.

Here's a good example of a bike wanting to right itself:

https://youtu.be/e9zFJBBLeX4

A bike when moving wants to go straight and upright. You have to force it to do otherwise. As soon as you stop forcing it, it goes straight again.
sumdood
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sumdood 4/27/2017 4:31pm
4/27/2017 4:31pm
XXVoid MainXX wrote:
Here ya go. End of thread:

https://youtu.be/oZAc5t2lkvo

Smile
...except that on the riderless bike the bars turn in the direction of the turn, which is.. the opposite way of what we're talking about ? Aaaahh my brain hurts LOL
XXVoid MainXX
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XXVoid MainXX 4/27/2017 4:40pm
4/27/2017 4:40pm
XXVoid MainXX wrote:
Here ya go. End of thread:

https://youtu.be/oZAc5t2lkvo

Smile
sumdood wrote:
...except that on the riderless bike the bars turn in the direction of the turn, which is.. the opposite way of what we're talking about...
...except that on the riderless bike the bars turn in the direction of the turn, which is.. the opposite way of what we're talking about ? Aaaahh my brain hurts LOL
Yes, it turns in the direction of the turn which causes the bike to get upright again. You have to put force in the opposite direction to keep that from happening. The front wheel will be pointing slightly to the left in a left hand turn but you have to apply pressure to the right to keep it leaned over or it will straighten itself up. It's not which direction the wheel points. It's which direction you have to apply the force.
Ebs
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Ebs 4/27/2017 4:42pm
4/27/2017 4:42pm
Lay your dirtbike over on the ground. Which way do you turn the bars when lowering it?
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Falcon 4/27/2017 5:21pm
4/27/2017 5:21pm
In my college years I had a few friends who graduated from MX to sportbikes. (600s.) Between the CA Motorcycle Handbook, some word of mouth, and what I'm convinced was a poor recollection of the movie On Any Sunday, my bros both started to profess that you had to steer normally until 100 mph, then you had to turn left to go right. Then, over 150 it was back to normal. I still can't believe that neither of them was killed.

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