Baldwin/blanks/kill ….. Avidchimp?

PNWRider
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10/23/2021 5:50pm
MO 23 wrote:
What does an accident on set have to do with gun laws?
PNWRider wrote:
For starters, if he had learned about guns instead of bashing them, he’d know by the gun’s weight that it was loaded with live ammunition and...
For starters, if he had learned about guns instead of bashing them, he’d know by the gun’s weight that it was loaded with live ammunition and not blanks. Most of the staunch anti-gun crowd have never even held one.
MO 23 wrote:
How much is the weight difference between a blank and a standard round? Serious question. I have never held or fired a gun with blanks, but...
How much is the weight difference between a blank and a standard round? Serious question.
I have never held or fired a gun with blanks, but seems like it would be a pretty minimal difference to me.
Was the Gun on set a handgun or rifle?
I’m not sure if exact weight. That said, it’s essentially the weight of the lead bullet times the number of rounds carried (six or so in a revolver, often 9-15 in a semi-auto handgun). It’s noticeable.
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Shiftfaced
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10/23/2021 6:02pm Edited Date/Time 10/23/2021 6:05pm
I viewed them both as an accident.

Neither had the intent to shoot (or harm) another person, but that is what happened.

I think Cheney was more negligent, as he knew he had a fully functional gun.

Baldwin was filming a movie.

Why would there even be a live round anywhere in the vicinity?
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Timo
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10/23/2021 7:59pm
My childhood best friend and riding buddy Seth was a marine. He went to Iraq and Afghanistan, totalling a year overseas in high risk combat zones. He was in for 3 years and had made the rank of Sergeant, had a year left on his enlistment and signed up for 4 more years. He made RECON and was transferred to camp Pendleton. Sense he re-uped he had a 30 day leave to use, he went back a week early to get to know his new team better. They decided to do a non live fire training a few days after he got back. Seth was playing the role of an Afghan local that didn't have a gun, but would run to a hidden stash of weapons.

A Sergeant who had gotten sick a week earlier at a live fire training was told to drop his belt and it would be taken care of. He was given that same belt for this non-live fire training. There was a single clip of live .223 ammunition mixed in with the blanks. It was dark, around midnight, and they had already gone through one rotation. Seth had gone for the stash and was spotted. The sergeant emptied a clip, grabbed another, and fired a few more rounds. The spotter thought Seth was a good actor because he twitched with each of the rounds.

Thing to be taken away from this is guns are tools to kill. That's what they are made for, and the only thing they are made for. The sergeant went to prison for firing what he was told was a safe gun. The people who planned the impromptu training and failed to follow multiple safety rules were transferred. The guy who didn't remove the clip didn't get anything that I'm aware of. I felt bad for the sergeant because I didn't really feel like he was at fault, but he was the lowest on the ladder and was thrown under the bus.

Someone is going to get in trouble for this, but don't expect it to be anyone above the bottom rung.
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redduk
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10/23/2021 8:29pm
Falcon wrote:
Baldwin's worst worry will be a manslaughter charge. That's if there's enough evidence that he was grossly negligent in discharging the firearm. There's not a single...
Baldwin's worst worry will be a manslaughter charge. That's if there's enough evidence that he was grossly negligent in discharging the firearm. There's not a single person in law enforcement or the judiciary who would call this a murder.

The Shop

MO 23
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10/23/2021 8:39pm Edited Date/Time 10/23/2021 8:41pm
What do people here actually want him charged with?

I personally think we need to wait for the proper investigations, I think he shouldnt be held responsible for the actual shooting part of the accident. I think its fair for an actor to assume that a gun handed to him and being told it is loaded with blanks, is in fact loaded with blanks
His role as a producer might be different. if they did not have process in place, he needs to cop some responsibility.
if he had industry standard process in place, and an armorer was negligent, or even worse, then the buck ends with them.

Just my opinion
But i am interested to hear what others think

And for the record, judging by the messages Baldwin has left for his daugher all those years ago....he seems like a proper shitty human, so i am not kissing his arse. but it does seem like a horrible accident, avoidable, but an accident none the less
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mxb2
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10/23/2021 9:06pm
Prop or not, always assume a weapon is loaded. Its on baldwin to double check it last, since he had it last. Bad situation could have been avoided.
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jemcee
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10/24/2021 12:25am
The strangest thing for me is, I've worked on a few feature films over here and they spend ridiculous money on the stupidest shit, why can't they make a prop that looks like a gun that isn't actually a gun that can shoot any sort of projectile?

Dinosaurs aren't real.. Humans aren't super heroes and can't fly.. Why does the thing that can kill if a mistake is made have to be real?
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10/24/2021 1:58am Edited Date/Time 10/24/2021 2:00am
At the time of writing and in regards to the sheer physical act, I personally don't blame Alec Baldwin at all. He's not a firearms expert and (as with most members of the public) shouldn't be treated as such - that's why there you have an expert on hand in the first place i.e to correctly brief and enforce safety measures... When it comes to firearm safety people range from knowing a lot, to absolutely nothing but the best course of action is to always assume it's the latter.

My suspicion is that the firearm was either taken to the range or even into the desert for recreational shooting, and/or perhaps in an attempt to discover why the reported misfires (most likely light primer strikes) were occurring. And then from that; due to an overworked, generally exhausted and all round unprofessional miserable environment, someone on the staff got sloppy and left one or two in... If it's a Peacemaker type deal then the cylinder doesn't swing out and thus missing one is all the more likely for people who are not doing what they should to begin with.
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TXDirt
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10/24/2021 4:43am
Sounds like the armorer had little experience. 24 year old woman who originally wanted to be a lighting assistant.

She had no military or police training background far as I can tell. No qualifications that you might consider necessary to perform as an armorer.
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Shiftfaced
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10/24/2021 6:26am
jemcee wrote:
The strangest thing for me is, I've worked on a few feature films over here and they spend ridiculous money on the stupidest shit, why can't...
The strangest thing for me is, I've worked on a few feature films over here and they spend ridiculous money on the stupidest shit, why can't they make a prop that looks like a gun that isn't actually a gun that can shoot any sort of projectile?

Dinosaurs aren't real.. Humans aren't super heroes and can't fly.. Why does the thing that can kill if a mistake is made have to be real?
I think you are being very reasonable.

Baldwin is not a “gun expert”, or even novice, for that matter.

He is a actor who was handed a prop. I think he can have the benefit of the doubt that what he is being handed is not real.

Imagine if somebody had handed Luke Skywalker a real light saber when they were filming Star Wars?

He woulda been a mass murderer!
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Shiftfaced
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10/24/2021 6:40am
Timo wrote:
My childhood best friend and riding buddy Seth was a marine. He went to Iraq and Afghanistan, totalling a year overseas in high risk combat zones...
My childhood best friend and riding buddy Seth was a marine. He went to Iraq and Afghanistan, totalling a year overseas in high risk combat zones. He was in for 3 years and had made the rank of Sergeant, had a year left on his enlistment and signed up for 4 more years. He made RECON and was transferred to camp Pendleton. Sense he re-uped he had a 30 day leave to use, he went back a week early to get to know his new team better. They decided to do a non live fire training a few days after he got back. Seth was playing the role of an Afghan local that didn't have a gun, but would run to a hidden stash of weapons.

A Sergeant who had gotten sick a week earlier at a live fire training was told to drop his belt and it would be taken care of. He was given that same belt for this non-live fire training. There was a single clip of live .223 ammunition mixed in with the blanks. It was dark, around midnight, and they had already gone through one rotation. Seth had gone for the stash and was spotted. The sergeant emptied a clip, grabbed another, and fired a few more rounds. The spotter thought Seth was a good actor because he twitched with each of the rounds.

Thing to be taken away from this is guns are tools to kill. That's what they are made for, and the only thing they are made for. The sergeant went to prison for firing what he was told was a safe gun. The people who planned the impromptu training and failed to follow multiple safety rules were transferred. The guy who didn't remove the clip didn't get anything that I'm aware of. I felt bad for the sergeant because I didn't really feel like he was at fault, but he was the lowest on the ladder and was thrown under the bus.

Someone is going to get in trouble for this, but don't expect it to be anyone above the bottom rung.
That is horrific. I am sorry for your loss. Good guy, doing the right thing, and he loses.

Terrible.
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7I3N
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10/24/2021 8:52am
TXDirt wrote:
Everyone take note: It doesn't matter if someone tells you a gun is NOT loaded when they hand it to you. You MUST: Confirm for yourself...
Everyone take note:
It doesn't matter if someone tells you a gun is NOT loaded when they hand it to you.

You MUST:
Confirm for yourself it is indeed not loaded.
Even if you confirm it is not loaded, treat it as loaded and never put your finger on the trigger unless you're ready to fire it and never, EVER, point it at someone you don't intend to shoot.

Alec Baldwin pulled the trigger. He was the last line of defense in the chain. He had the responsibility to personally verify that the gun was safe to operate for its intended purpose; meaning there were no live rounds in the gun. He did not fulfill this responsibility.

Yes, others are also culpable; the armorer especially, as the person with overall responsibility for every weapon used on set.

Ultimately though, it comes down to Baldwin having pulled the trigger. His actions directly led to the death of Halyna Hutchins.
I think you're spot on. Gun safety 101: the instant you take possession of a firearm, it is your responsibility to know if it's loaded and with what. Anything that happens next is YOUR responsibility. Period.
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pelted
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10/24/2021 9:46am
Beyond fundamental safety standards that were not met, there are unanswered root cause-type questions: Why did Baldwin point the gun at crew members? Why was there a live round on a film set? Who loaded the gun with a live round?
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tunedlength
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10/24/2021 10:15am
jemcee wrote:
The strangest thing for me is, I've worked on a few feature films over here and they spend ridiculous money on the stupidest shit, why can't...
The strangest thing for me is, I've worked on a few feature films over here and they spend ridiculous money on the stupidest shit, why can't they make a prop that looks like a gun that isn't actually a gun that can shoot any sort of projectile?

Dinosaurs aren't real.. Humans aren't super heroes and can't fly.. Why does the thing that can kill if a mistake is made have to be real?
Until just now I had assumed that they used prop guns that were not able to fire a real (projectile) round.
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Yeti831
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10/24/2021 10:33am
MO 23 wrote:
What do people here actually want him charged with? I personally think we need to wait for the proper investigations, I think he shouldnt be held...
What do people here actually want him charged with?

I personally think we need to wait for the proper investigations, I think he shouldnt be held responsible for the actual shooting part of the accident. I think its fair for an actor to assume that a gun handed to him and being told it is loaded with blanks, is in fact loaded with blanks
His role as a producer might be different. if they did not have process in place, he needs to cop some responsibility.
if he had industry standard process in place, and an armorer was negligent, or even worse, then the buck ends with them.

Just my opinion
But i am interested to hear what others think

And for the record, judging by the messages Baldwin has left for his daugher all those years ago....he seems like a proper shitty human, so i am not kissing his arse. but it does seem like a horrible accident, avoidable, but an accident none the less
Charged with?

Well, negligent homicide for one.
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Brad460
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10/24/2021 11:11am Edited Date/Time 10/24/2021 11:15am
MO 23 wrote:
What do people here actually want him charged with? I personally think we need to wait for the proper investigations, I think he shouldnt be held...
What do people here actually want him charged with?

I personally think we need to wait for the proper investigations, I think he shouldnt be held responsible for the actual shooting part of the accident. I think its fair for an actor to assume that a gun handed to him and being told it is loaded with blanks, is in fact loaded with blanks
His role as a producer might be different. if they did not have process in place, he needs to cop some responsibility.
if he had industry standard process in place, and an armorer was negligent, or even worse, then the buck ends with them.

Just my opinion
But i am interested to hear what others think

And for the record, judging by the messages Baldwin has left for his daugher all those years ago....he seems like a proper shitty human, so i am not kissing his arse. but it does seem like a horrible accident, avoidable, but an accident none the less
Yeti831 wrote:
Charged with?

Well, negligent homicide for one.
Hypothetically speaking- Let’s say my friend hands me a gun and tells me it’s not loaded. I aim/shoot that gun at someone and kill them- I am 100% charged with a crime, no? Manslaughter? Maybe worse?

I can tell the police I was filming a YouTube video and it’s was my friends responsibility to make sure the gun was not loaded..I am free to go home, right?
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MO 23
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10/24/2021 12:32pm Edited Date/Time 10/24/2021 12:38pm
MO 23 wrote:
What do people here actually want him charged with? I personally think we need to wait for the proper investigations, I think he shouldnt be held...
What do people here actually want him charged with?

I personally think we need to wait for the proper investigations, I think he shouldnt be held responsible for the actual shooting part of the accident. I think its fair for an actor to assume that a gun handed to him and being told it is loaded with blanks, is in fact loaded with blanks
His role as a producer might be different. if they did not have process in place, he needs to cop some responsibility.
if he had industry standard process in place, and an armorer was negligent, or even worse, then the buck ends with them.

Just my opinion
But i am interested to hear what others think

And for the record, judging by the messages Baldwin has left for his daugher all those years ago....he seems like a proper shitty human, so i am not kissing his arse. but it does seem like a horrible accident, avoidable, but an accident none the less
Yeti831 wrote:
Charged with?

Well, negligent homicide for one.
Brad460 wrote:
Hypothetically speaking- Let’s say my friend hands me a gun and tells me it’s not loaded. I aim/shoot that gun at someone and kill them- I...
Hypothetically speaking- Let’s say my friend hands me a gun and tells me it’s not loaded. I aim/shoot that gun at someone and kill them- I am 100% charged with a crime, no? Manslaughter? Maybe worse?

I can tell the police I was filming a YouTube video and it’s was my friends responsibility to make sure the gun was not loaded..I am free to go home, right?
Saying you were filming a YouTube video with zero evidence, and being on a professional movie set with hundreds if not thousands of people involved. Most importantly what should have been a professional prop master and armorer employed is a bit different is it not?

Sadly this has happened on film sets before, what is the legal precedent?

To me it seems like the fault was at the props department. If Baldwin is a producer is it his responsibility to hire these people? If so and he employed people that were not adequately experienced or qualified, I put more blame on him for that part than pulling the trigger.

I can’t see Baldwin being charged with anything higher than manslaughter, and I doubt even that would stick.

Time will tell
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plowboy
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10/24/2021 12:45pm
pelted wrote:
Beyond fundamental safety standards that were not met, there are unanswered root cause-type questions: Why did Baldwin point the gun at crew members? Why was there...
Beyond fundamental safety standards that were not met, there are unanswered root cause-type questions: Why did Baldwin point the gun at crew members? Why was there a live round on a film set? Who loaded the gun with a live round?
These are the pertinent questions my friend. When these are answered we will come to the truth.
lostboy819
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10/24/2021 1:20pm
Until just now I had assumed that they used prop guns that were not able to fire a real (projectile) round.
Exactly, I would have never thought that any gun that could actually shoot would be anywhere near a movie set.
jeffro503
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10/24/2021 1:58pm
Don't want to get into any debate here....but was it found that the bullet , was a real bullet or blank that was just fired to close to the gal who passed? Serious question , as Ive read both.
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felpro
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10/24/2021 2:24pm Edited Date/Time 10/24/2021 2:37pm
The information that has been released, assuming it is correct, is that the gun was handed to the actor after it was declared cold by the armourer. The projectile went through the DP lady and hit the director. I assume only a real bullet would do that. I can only assume the filming called for the gun to be aimed just off camera towards where the DP and director were.

To suggest the actor being told the gun was cold should have identified the weight as a live round is not realistic. To suggest it is the actor's responsibility to check the status of the gun and the type of round is sensible but clearly has not been an on-set guideline. I would imagine everyone on a set will be more proactive in this area moving forward.

This is an accident, a terrible accident that was preventable. An actor is not responsible to check a car he has to drive for roadworthiness. He won't be checking the spokes on a bike he has to ride. He wont cook his own meals or test food he eats while acting on camera. All these thing could have dire consequences if something was not right. That's why there are people assigned to the task of ensuring all is OK. Their competency is the issue here, not the actor's.

This has zero to do with gun laws. Zero to do with politics. This is about chain of custody of a weapon and overall workplace competency.

However, I can't see any reason for a live round to be anywhere on a film set. Who knows why it was there. That will be figured out as the investigation proceeds.

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MO 23
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10/24/2021 2:30pm
felpro wrote:
The information that has been released, assuming it is correct, is that the gun was handed to the actor after it was declared cold by the...
The information that has been released, assuming it is correct, is that the gun was handed to the actor after it was declared cold by the armourer. The projectile went through the DP lady and hit the director. I assume only a real bullet would do that. I can only assume the filming called for the gun to be aimed just off camera towards where the DP and director were.

To suggest the actor being told the gun was cold should have identified the weight as a live round is not realistic. To suggest it is the actor's responsibility to check the status of the gun and the type of round is sensible but clearly has not been an on-set guideline. I would imagine everyone on a set will be more proactive in this area moving forward.

This is an accident, a terrible accident that was preventable. An actor is not responsible to check a car he has to drive for roadworthiness. He won't be checking the spokes on a bike he has to ride. He wont cook his own meals or test food he eats while acting on camera. All these thing could have dire consequences if something was not right. That's why there are people assigned to the task of ensuring all is OK. Their competency is the issue here, not the actor's.

This has zero to do with gun laws. Zero to do with politics. This is about chain of custody of a weapon and overall workplace competency.

However, I can't see any reason for a live round to be anywhere on a film set. Who knows why it was there. That will be figured out as the investigation proceeds.

"This has zero to do with gun laws. Zero to do with politics. This is about chain of custody of a weapon and overall workplace competency."

This
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Shiftfaced
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10/24/2021 4:59pm
Thank you, felpro.

That was a very detailed and plausible explanation.

Everybody has a role and responsibility, and rock stars and actors are responsible for very little of it.

When everybody else has done the hard work, they come out of their trailer, perform, then head back to the AC and a cold drink.

Why was there a live round anywhere near this filming?

It is the last thing any reasonable person would expect.

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Dirtydeeds
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10/24/2021 6:09pm
“However, I can't see any reason for a live round to be anywhere on a film set. Who knows why it was there. That will be figured out as the investigation proceeds.”


BeCaUsE ThE ClInToNs



motosmith
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10/24/2021 7:35pm
Manslaughter. Killing without aforethought.
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lostboy819
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10/24/2021 8:24pm
motosmith wrote:
Manslaughter. Killing without aforethought.
Its defiantly a real possibility, I am sure there are several people that worked on the set that are worried about charges and Baldwin should be one of them. No he didn't mean to kill anyone but someone did die because of negligence.
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FGR01
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10/25/2021 9:47am
If you're too stupid, irresponsible, or ignorant to personally and properly identify whether or not a gun is loaded you have no business handling a gun.

Movie, Actor, procedures, protocols, armorer, prop master, yada yada yada.. all bullshit words that do not diminish the above truth.
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MelonFan123
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10/25/2021 11:18am
It infuriates me to no end how people are turning this political simply because of who was involved (Baldwin).

But that's just how the world is these days. This was an accident on set and the responsible parties - mainly the armorer and AD - will and should lay the blame.

There are protocols and responsibilities the have been laid out and negotiated by unions for over 100 years of movies, commercials,TV shows being filmed. An actor being handed a gun by an AD who tells him "cold gun" is the real problem here. Also the info coming out about the 24 year old Armorer on only her 2nd film and the things she said in a podcast recently is very troubling
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swordfish
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10/25/2021 2:09pm
It infuriates me to no end how people are turning this political simply because of who was involved (Baldwin). But that's just how the world is...
It infuriates me to no end how people are turning this political simply because of who was involved (Baldwin).

But that's just how the world is these days. This was an accident on set and the responsible parties - mainly the armorer and AD - will and should lay the blame.

There are protocols and responsibilities the have been laid out and negotiated by unions for over 100 years of movies, commercials,TV shows being filmed. An actor being handed a gun by an AD who tells him "cold gun" is the real problem here. Also the info coming out about the 24 year old Armorer on only her 2nd film and the things she said in a podcast recently is very troubling
Can’t say it infuriates me, Baldwin is the king of politicizing shit. You reap what you sow. Only thing really bothersome is how the victim is being overshadowed by Baldwins celebrity.
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felpro
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10/25/2021 2:44pm Edited Date/Time 10/25/2021 3:07pm
What we do know:

The Dp was killed, the director injured. A live round was in a gun given to an actor.

What we don't know:

Was the actor 3 feet away from the victims or 50? In the same room?

Was it rehearsal? 5th rehearsal? A take? Take 4?

Was the gun aimed toward the people or was it aimed elsewhere, possibly aimed at a protective shield, the projectile being deflected toward the victims?

Was the actor aiming the gun as part of the scene or just handling it in preparation for the scene?

Was it an intentional firing or an accidental firing? Like tossing it from one hand to the other? Dropping it?

Did the scene involve the actor fighting another struggling over the gun?

In time, these scenarios with no longer be conjecture.

It takes some imagination to declare anyone guilty right now.
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