Are Indian motorcycles racist?

m121c wrote:

[b]Lets say for a moment, just for arguments sake, the naysayers such as yourself admit white privilege exists. Is the thought of losing your advantage a...

Lets say for a moment, just for arguments sake, the naysayers such as yourself admit white privilege exists. Is the thought of losing your advantage a scary one?

If someone wants to have a discussion about whether biases are just human nature and something we need to learn to live with, Im open to that discussion as a good argument could be made that tribalism is a survival mechanism hardwired into the human psyche. And as a result it manifests itself in a million seemingly fucked up ways. But let's please not sit here and squabble over if the biases actually exist or not. That's like debating on if imperialism exists. I'd much rather argue it's moral merits or justifications.

I'm not going to quote the entire post by Jabroni, as there is a lot of different yet related complex topics in it, I just want to touch on this part.

You are right, the squabble should not be black and white (either it fully exists or it doesn't). Unfortunately though, the debate is always that. Conservative folks like myself are quick to debunk it, saying its victimization, it doesn't exist. Leftest folks (not categorizing anyone into this, but I would assume on the scale of left to right ideas you closer to the left) will say it fully exists so deeply ingrained and so prevalent that we (conservatives) are just too ignorant/uneducated enough to realize it. It's the generalization that is the problem.

I did a paper a couple semesters ago on the white privilege. I go to a pretty "liberal" college, and I had a pretty typical (but fair) left leaning teacher. My question wasn't if it exists or not, my question was to what level does it exist, and is something we can say as an absolute across the board privilege like so many propose. Now I'm not saying you are guilty of this, but the way you state your ideas this is the impression I was given. Anyhow, what I found looking through countless studies is that indeed, there are inherit privileges white people have that you can not deny (mostly cultural). But so do women, so do blacks, so do latinos, and etc. In fact, want to know what the one ethnic group that seemed to have very few inherent privileges when looking at culture/systems, but seem to have all the privilege in the world when looking at statistical results only? Asians. Asian Americans kick "privileged" White America's ass for the lack of better terms. Family statistics, economic statistics, academic statistics, you name it and they probably beat everyone in it.

I basically took the initial list/paper authored by Peggy Mcintosh titled the "White Privilege: Unpacking the Invisible Knapsack", and went down the list on key privileges and either disproved them, or elaborated on them. For anyone who might not know, Peggy Mcintosh is often credited with the conception of the white privilege "movement" if you will, when her work surfaced around 1989 it hit waves in the world of social justice. It's basically a pretty extensive list of privileges that I, as a white male, have. (see the true origins of white privilege are not the Caucasians themselves, it is directly assigned to the straight white male patriarchy). Some on the list are big such as banks discriminating against blacks (some evidence shown by a study conducted at the University of Iowa that this isn't true) and some are as ridiculous as saying band aids better reflect our skin color and we don't have to worry about that.

Long story short(ish), If you are comfortable with white privilege, than I would expect you to be comfortable in saying there is black privilege, or latino privilege, or women privilege, etc. Because those exist as well. None of them can be generalized as across the board, or higher than another, we all just have privileges in different areas of society. Most leftest would not agree with even uttering the words "black privilege" just as much as ultra-conservatives would not agree with uttering "white privilege". It's a complex web that oddly enough (not really) is more connected to class and economic status than it is skin color. However, in America more than anywhere else, skin color is the always the focus. My point being is that both sides of that argument are not necessarily wrong, but in my opinion they are not necessarily right.

I think it really comes down to your sentence Jabroni: If someone wants to have a discussion about whether biases are just human nature and something we need to learn to live with, Im open to that discussion as a good argument could be made that tribalism is a survival mechanism hardwired into the human psyche.

Add egoism into tribalism, and you get the debate we have. No one wants to admit there is flaws in each others cultures, all the while they only want to focus on the problems of other peoples cultures. Add in the pressure to force acceptance and you have the division we have now.

If you are interest in my paper or some of the points (with sources) that I made, I would gladly throw them into the topic for anyone to criticize or read through. Who knows might inform you on some things, might inform me on some things.

KennyT wrote:

[img]https://p.vitalmx.com/photos/forums/2018/05/14/261702/s1200_2355FD73_6861_4E05_949B_08FAFA3662AC.jpg[/img] This is the bad boy I have my eyes on. Pictures do not do these bikes justice, they are like a work of art in...

This is the bad boy I have my eyes on. Pictures do not do these bikes justice, they are like a work of art in person. Not fond of the feathered Indian head on the tank but that’s what this model has and everything else about it is what I’m after. I have a friend that does custom painting on cars/bikes n if I get tired of it he could always repaint the tank. This bike is very similar to my HD street glide but from what I hear is a little superior in overall design/performance. It’s slightly used and several K under the retail price

Anyway thanks for all the input guys. Sorry if I ruffled some feathers...no pun intended

KennyT wrote:

I do some form of that ride a couple times a month, The bad thing is I end up buying a whole pie to bring home...

I do some form of that ride a couple times a month,
The bad thing is I end up buying a whole pie to bring home. I go by Pala n stop to watch some Moto, head up Palomar mountain, lake Henshaw, Julian etc.

There are a endless supply of twisties that are great for bikes (and Porsche’s). I sold one last year amd won’t get another until I can’t rode bikes anymore. Two very similar thrills on the back roads

m121c wrote:

[b]Lets say for a moment, just for arguments sake, the naysayers such as yourself admit white privilege exists. Is the thought of losing your advantage a...

Lets say for a moment, just for arguments sake, the naysayers such as yourself admit white privilege exists. Is the thought of losing your advantage a scary one?

If someone wants to have a discussion about whether biases are just human nature and something we need to learn to live with, Im open to that discussion as a good argument could be made that tribalism is a survival mechanism hardwired into the human psyche. And as a result it manifests itself in a million seemingly fucked up ways. But let's please not sit here and squabble over if the biases actually exist or not. That's like debating on if imperialism exists. I'd much rather argue it's moral merits or justifications.

I'm not going to quote the entire post by Jabroni, as there is a lot of different yet related complex topics in it, I just want to touch on this part.

You are right, the squabble should not be black and white (either it fully exists or it doesn't). Unfortunately though, the debate is always that. Conservative folks like myself are quick to debunk it, saying its victimization, it doesn't exist. Leftest folks (not categorizing anyone into this, but I would assume on the scale of left to right ideas you closer to the left) will say it fully exists so deeply ingrained and so prevalent that we (conservatives) are just too ignorant/uneducated enough to realize it. It's the generalization that is the problem.

I did a paper a couple semesters ago on the white privilege. I go to a pretty "liberal" college, and I had a pretty typical (but fair) left leaning teacher. My question wasn't if it exists or not, my question was to what level does it exist, and is something we can say as an absolute across the board privilege like so many propose. Now I'm not saying you are guilty of this, but the way you state your ideas this is the impression I was given. Anyhow, what I found looking through countless studies is that indeed, there are inherit privileges white people have that you can not deny (mostly cultural). But so do women, so do blacks, so do latinos, and etc. In fact, want to know what the one ethnic group that seemed to have very few inherent privileges when looking at culture/systems, but seem to have all the privilege in the world when looking at statistical results only? Asians. Asian Americans kick "privileged" White America's ass for the lack of better terms. Family statistics, economic statistics, academic statistics, you name it and they probably beat everyone in it.

I basically took the initial list/paper authored by Peggy Mcintosh titled the "White Privilege: Unpacking the Invisible Knapsack", and went down the list on key privileges and either disproved them, or elaborated on them. For anyone who might not know, Peggy Mcintosh is often credited with the conception of the white privilege "movement" if you will, when her work surfaced around 1989 it hit waves in the world of social justice. It's basically a pretty extensive list of privileges that I, as a white male, have. (see the true origins of white privilege are not the Caucasians themselves, it is directly assigned to the straight white male patriarchy). Some on the list are big such as banks discriminating against blacks (some evidence shown by a study conducted at the University of Iowa that this isn't true) and some are as ridiculous as saying band aids better reflect our skin color and we don't have to worry about that.

Long story short(ish), If you are comfortable with white privilege, than I would expect you to be comfortable in saying there is black privilege, or latino privilege, or women privilege, etc. Because those exist as well. None of them can be generalized as across the board, or higher than another, we all just have privileges in different areas of society. Most leftest would not agree with even uttering the words "black privilege" just as much as ultra-conservatives would not agree with uttering "white privilege". It's a complex web that oddly enough (not really) is more connected to class and economic status than it is skin color. However, in America more than anywhere else, skin color is the always the focus. My point being is that both sides of that argument are not necessarily wrong, but in my opinion they are not necessarily right.

I think it really comes down to your sentence Jabroni: If someone wants to have a discussion about whether biases are just human nature and something we need to learn to live with, Im open to that discussion as a good argument could be made that tribalism is a survival mechanism hardwired into the human psyche.

Add egoism into tribalism, and you get the debate we have. No one wants to admit there is flaws in each others cultures, all the while they only want to focus on the problems of other peoples cultures. Add in the pressure to force acceptance and you have the division we have now.

If you are interest in my paper or some of the points (with sources) that I made, I would gladly throw them into the topic for anyone to criticize or read through. Who knows might inform you on some things, might inform me on some things.

m121c wrote:

[b]Lets say for a moment, just for arguments sake, the naysayers such as yourself admit white privilege exists. Is the thought of losing your advantage a...

Lets say for a moment, just for arguments sake, the naysayers such as yourself admit white privilege exists. Is the thought of losing your advantage a scary one?

If someone wants to have a discussion about whether biases are just human nature and something we need to learn to live with, Im open to that discussion as a good argument could be made that tribalism is a survival mechanism hardwired into the human psyche. And as a result it manifests itself in a million seemingly fucked up ways. But let's please not sit here and squabble over if the biases actually exist or not. That's like debating on if imperialism exists. I'd much rather argue it's moral merits or justifications.

I'm not going to quote the entire post by Jabroni, as there is a lot of different yet related complex topics in it, I just want to touch on this part.

You are right, the squabble should not be black and white (either it fully exists or it doesn't). Unfortunately though, the debate is always that. Conservative folks like myself are quick to debunk it, saying its victimization, it doesn't exist. Leftest folks (not categorizing anyone into this, but I would assume on the scale of left to right ideas you closer to the left) will say it fully exists so deeply ingrained and so prevalent that we (conservatives) are just too ignorant/uneducated enough to realize it. It's the generalization that is the problem.

I did a paper a couple semesters ago on the white privilege. I go to a pretty "liberal" college, and I had a pretty typical (but fair) left leaning teacher. My question wasn't if it exists or not, my question was to what level does it exist, and is something we can say as an absolute across the board privilege like so many propose. Now I'm not saying you are guilty of this, but the way you state your ideas this is the impression I was given. Anyhow, what I found looking through countless studies is that indeed, there are inherit privileges white people have that you can not deny (mostly cultural). But so do women, so do blacks, so do latinos, and etc. In fact, want to know what the one ethnic group that seemed to have very few inherent privileges when looking at culture/systems, but seem to have all the privilege in the world when looking at statistical results only? Asians. Asian Americans kick "privileged" White America's ass for the lack of better terms. Family statistics, economic statistics, academic statistics, you name it and they probably beat everyone in it.

I basically took the initial list/paper authored by Peggy Mcintosh titled the "White Privilege: Unpacking the Invisible Knapsack", and went down the list on key privileges and either disproved them, or elaborated on them. For anyone who might not know, Peggy Mcintosh is often credited with the conception of the white privilege "movement" if you will, when her work surfaced around 1989 it hit waves in the world of social justice. It's basically a pretty extensive list of privileges that I, as a white male, have. (see the true origins of white privilege are not the Caucasians themselves, it is directly assigned to the straight white male patriarchy). Some on the list are big such as banks discriminating against blacks (some evidence shown by a study conducted at the University of Iowa that this isn't true) and some are as ridiculous as saying band aids better reflect our skin color and we don't have to worry about that.

Long story short(ish), If you are comfortable with white privilege, than I would expect you to be comfortable in saying there is black privilege, or latino privilege, or women privilege, etc. Because those exist as well. None of them can be generalized as across the board, or higher than another, we all just have privileges in different areas of society. Most leftest would not agree with even uttering the words "black privilege" just as much as ultra-conservatives would not agree with uttering "white privilege". It's a complex web that oddly enough (not really) is more connected to class and economic status than it is skin color. However, in America more than anywhere else, skin color is the always the focus. My point being is that both sides of that argument are not necessarily wrong, but in my opinion they are not necessarily right.

I think it really comes down to your sentence Jabroni: If someone wants to have a discussion about whether biases are just human nature and something we need to learn to live with, Im open to that discussion as a good argument could be made that tribalism is a survival mechanism hardwired into the human psyche.

Add egoism into tribalism, and you get the debate we have. No one wants to admit there is flaws in each others cultures, all the while they only want to focus on the problems of other peoples cultures. Add in the pressure to force acceptance and you have the division we have now.

If you are interest in my paper or some of the points (with sources) that I made, I would gladly throw them into the topic for anyone to criticize or read through. Who knows might inform you on some things, might inform me on some things.

APLMAN99 wrote:

I'd love to see this paper describing the similarities of white privelege and black privelege. Where is it published? Also would be interested in the U...

I'd love to see this paper describing the similarities of white privelege and black privelege. Where is it published?

Also would be interested in the U of Iowa study you are referring to, as long as it studies actual lending/banking results, and isn't that silly one where they give a bunch of undergrads Monopoly money and ask them who they'd lend to...........

APLMAN99 wrote:

I'd love to see this paper describing the similarities of white privelege and black privelege. Where is it published? Also would be interested in the U...

I'd love to see this paper describing the similarities of white privelege and black privelege. Where is it published?

Also would be interested in the U of Iowa study you are referring to, as long as it studies actual lending/banking results, and isn't that silly one where they give a bunch of undergrads Monopoly money and ask them who they'd lend to...........

APLMAN99 wrote:

I'd love to see this paper describing the similarities of white privelege and black privelege. Where is it published? Also would be interested in the U...

I'd love to see this paper describing the similarities of white privelege and black privelege. Where is it published?

Also would be interested in the U of Iowa study you are referring to, as long as it studies actual lending/banking results, and isn't that silly one where they give a bunch of undergrads Monopoly money and ask them who they'd lend to...........

m121c wrote:

Not published by any means, I'm an undergrad physics student and this was just a research project for my college writing and research course. It's also...

Not published by any means, I'm an undergrad physics student and this was just a research project for my college writing and research course. It's also not a paper that compares black privilege or white privilege, rather the complexities of privilege itself and why it's inaccurate to assume white privilege as a blanket net of ideas that a certain skin tone (white) inherently means you are above all other minorities.

Here is the dropbox link anyways: https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B5Gvl_bTvljeeUZSU2ZSZVl0cDA
Also graphical data that goes along with the paper: https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B5Gvl_bTvljeU2FlQlJWR0l1eUE
Finally the sources used: https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B5Gvl_bTvljec25xa1hRU09oNGs

I do want to disclose that there is most likely minor spelling/grammatical errors, as well as this paper in no way analyzes the history of oppression/civil right infringement that the United States has had that could explain some of the statistical results we see today.

On the subject of the U of I study, it is as you state a "silly" monopoly socio-culture study, and not actual lender data, which I'm sure would be impossible to legally obtain on the grounds of privacy policies. Like anything though, you are free to conclude what you want from the sources I provide. An important note I would like to make is that in that study Sarah Harkness does acknowledge that there are stereotypes that might have took place, and although they might not of decided the results (unverifiable), they certainly caused the loan application to be reviewed much more strictly. In her conclusion, she states that although stereotypes where present (which I believe is human nature to an extent) a carefully crafted loan application and presentation is much more important the the color of the skid or gender of the person being the decider. You can see it as you wish, but I thought it was worth referencing.

My point, if you start doing your research with an agenda already in place, you can find any results you want. I sincerely hope you paper isnt of that nature. As you did a fine job of articulating yourself in your response to me.

I can't lie and say that I didn't already have a "side" on this topic before I did the paper. I was actually on the very conservative "it's non-existent" side of this discussion prior to it, doing the research changed my tune a bit to be honest. For what it was worth, I started out my research trying to prove myself wrong, by looking for any academic worthy source that could validate any of Peggy's claims of white male privilege, and to be honest I just found nothing. The only thing I found were news articles that sourced other news articles that sourced opinionated "studies" stemmed from personal experience and opinion columns. One could make the argument I didn't look hard enough and I already had my agenda mapped out sub-consciously, that could be a fair argument, and in the time span of a couple weeks one can only look through so many different studies. However, it was actually quiet interesting, I went to my professor for help thinking she may have already known a few studies (not to make assumptions, but she was admittedly politically and socially left leaning) and asked her to help me find some that could help me with the other side of the argument, to her confusion she couldn't really find anything either.

KennyT wrote:

I do some form of that ride a couple times a month, The bad thing is I end up buying a whole pie to bring home...

I do some form of that ride a couple times a month,
The bad thing is I end up buying a whole pie to bring home. I go by Pala n stop to watch some Moto, head up Palomar mountain, lake Henshaw, Julian etc.

There are a endless supply of twisties that are great for bikes (and Porsche’s). I sold one last year amd won’t get another until I can’t rode bikes anymore. Two very similar thrills on the back roads