Another thought on OWS

WhKnuckle
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Edited Date/Time 1/20/2012 11:42pm
Although I generally understand the emotional motivations of OWS protestors (while I disagree with their tactics), I have to admire their willingness to express a point of view and to take actions to back it up. Basically, they're doing the same thing the Tea Party did, only they're actually willing to get their hands dirty instead of being satisfied with showing up with hateful speech, irresponsible and despicable signage, spew verbal vomit into the air and then go back to their cozy homes that they bought with subprime mortgages.

But both movements are equally disturbing in that they make Alice in Wonderland demands and threaten violence if they don't get their way. They are two sides of a social fracture that will take decades to heal.

I remember the last time this happened - it was initiated by the war in Vietnam. And it's curious that, although this one does not address the war in Iraq, it happened in a society that was emotionally fractured by Iraq in the first place. It seems to me that these kinds of social earthquakes occur in conjunction with wars that are fundamentally improper, unjustified, and incredibly ill-advised. With that being the case, and it's undeniable, it occurs to me that these kinds of movements, whether in the late 60s or today, are a symptom of a society that is emotionally damaged by the guilt that it is responsible for the deaths and maimings of innocents in some country that we have nothing to do with, which we invaded and bombed and at least tried to force into capitulation, whether well-intentioned or not.

Maybe the next time a president gets war fever, he'll remember this time. But Bush managed to forget 1968 by the time 2003 rolled around, so apparently a short term memory loss is a presidential trait.

Anyway, I'm not even sure OWS understands the task they've set themselves to - they're like a guy who decides to knock down Everest with a hammer and a chisel. Maybe their Everest is evil, but they're not going to put much of a dent in it.
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txmxer
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11/5/2011 5:35am
The war and the actions of the government at home may all be symptoms of the same thing. The point of both current movements is to oppose the actions of those in power. Different actions drove the two groups to take to the streets, but those specific actions are symptoms. We'll see if anyone has the balls to initiate a cure. Probably not because it means giving up or taking away power.
bsm121
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11/5/2011 5:45am
how is anyone supposed to take the rest of your post seriously after reading the first paragraph?
WhKnuckle
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11/5/2011 5:48am
txmxer wrote:
The war and the actions of the government at home may all be symptoms of the same thing. The point of both current movements is to...
The war and the actions of the government at home may all be symptoms of the same thing. The point of both current movements is to oppose the actions of those in power. Different actions drove the two groups to take to the streets, but those specific actions are symptoms. We'll see if anyone has the balls to initiate a cure. Probably not because it means giving up or taking away power.
That's very true, and it's very doubtful that power can be transferred at this point. The OWS crowd seems to focus on Wall Street and the banks - but that's the least of the economic power centers. Every large American corporation is run by a CEO who is essentially a stooge for Wall Street - I've seen this since the late 80s and today it's so pervasive that it's probably an inextricable power center. CEOs don't build businesses, they function SOLELY to forecast earnings and hit those forecasts - in fact, that's where hedge funds came from. You could take the name of every CEO of a S&P 500 company and put them in a hat, draw them out at random and assign them to companies and those companies would operate exactly the same way, because CEOs have nothing to do with the operation of a company, and therefore have nothing to do with the growth of that operation. Their job is to hedge and invest in such a way that they hit their earnings targets, and that's all. That's the evil Mt. Everest that OWS is chiselling away at, and that's why it has no chance to succeed.

For all our lives, we've lived in a way that honors the success of our companies. Today, we have nothing - NOTHING - to do with the success of our companies. We have to learn a whole new ethic, that honors the simple artistic and divine ability of humans to do work, to create and produce. We have to honor that in an intrinsic way and allow that to fulfill our lives. Yes, we might make money, or we might not. That is totally out of our hands. We can exercise a divine power to work, and we're going to have to learn to be happy with that.

The Shop

WhKnuckle
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11/5/2011 5:48am
bsm121 wrote:
how is anyone supposed to take the rest of your post seriously after reading the first paragraph?
Maybe you could try reading the whole thing. Or not. I don't give a shit either way.
bsm121
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11/5/2011 6:07am
bsm121 wrote:
how is anyone supposed to take the rest of your post seriously after reading the first paragraph?
WhKnuckle wrote:
Maybe you could try reading the whole thing. Or not. I don't give a shit either way.
i did read the whole thing, and it's well written, however, the obvious slant inserted against the Tea Party makes what is otherwise a poignant observation seem petty...just not sure why you chose to go that route, that's all.
WhKnuckle
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11/5/2011 6:08am Edited Date/Time 11/5/2011 6:11am
bsm121 wrote:
how is anyone supposed to take the rest of your post seriously after reading the first paragraph?
WhKnuckle wrote:
Maybe you could try reading the whole thing. Or not. I don't give a shit either way.
bsm121 wrote:
i did read the whole thing, and it's well written, however, the obvious slant inserted against the Tea Party makes what is otherwise a poignant observation...
i did read the whole thing, and it's well written, however, the obvious slant inserted against the Tea Party makes what is otherwise a poignant observation seem petty...just not sure why you chose to go that route, that's all.
Because it's the truth. And because the two movements are equally irrational. "End Wall Street" is just as irrational as "cut taxes and balance the budget". And they're both basically mob mentalities.
Frogman
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11/5/2011 6:14am
WhKnuckle wrote:
Because it's the truth. And because the two movements are equally irrational. "End Wall Street" is just as irrational as "cut taxes and balance the budget"...
Because it's the truth. And because the two movements are equally irrational. "End Wall Street" is just as irrational as "cut taxes and balance the budget". And they're both basically mob mentalities.
LOL
bsm121
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11/5/2011 6:17am
WhKnuckle wrote:
Because it's the truth. And because the two movements are equally irrational. "End Wall Street" is just as irrational as "cut taxes and balance the budget"...
Because it's the truth. And because the two movements are equally irrational. "End Wall Street" is just as irrational as "cut taxes and balance the budget". And they're both basically mob mentalities.
yet only one was "hateful, irresponsible and despicable"...
WhKnuckle
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11/5/2011 6:24am
WhKnuckle wrote:
Because it's the truth. And because the two movements are equally irrational. "End Wall Street" is just as irrational as "cut taxes and balance the budget"...
Because it's the truth. And because the two movements are equally irrational. "End Wall Street" is just as irrational as "cut taxes and balance the budget". And they're both basically mob mentalities.
bsm121 wrote:
yet only one was "hateful, irresponsible and despicable"...
Has OWS advocated armed insurrection against the government?
bsm121
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11/5/2011 6:39am
WhKnuckle wrote:
Has OWS advocated armed insurrection against the government?
has OWS group not done anything "hateful, irresponsible or despicable"?


i'm not trying to defend the Tea Party, but let's not suggest that OWS crowd has been completely above board.


and, no, I don't recall them advocating armed insurrection.
WhKnuckle
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11/5/2011 7:59am
You don't remember and organized "Bring Your Guns to Washington" rally? You don't rememeber various Tea Party groups openly advocating that people should bring assault weapons to public presidential events? You don't remember the constant threat to "exercise our second ammendment rights"? You don't remember the plethora of bullseye and crosshairs signs - professionally done - that showed up at Tea Party rallies all over the country?
SteveS
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11/5/2011 8:46am Edited Date/Time 11/5/2011 8:46am
Which would you rather have? A group that says, "We have candidates we don't agree with in the crosshairs for defeat at the next election." Or a group which throws rocks through plate glass windows of numerous banks and defecates on police cars?
Frogman
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11/5/2011 8:54am Edited Date/Time 11/5/2011 8:55am
SteveS wrote:
Which would you rather have? A group that says, "We have candidates we don't agree with in the crosshairs for defeat at the next election." Or...
Which would you rather have? A group that says, "We have candidates we don't agree with in the crosshairs for defeat at the next election." Or a group which throws rocks through plate glass windows of numerous banks and defecates on police cars?
Yeah..mob violence, vandalism, and obstruction of commerce is preferable to symbolic references to the American revolution and the Constitution.

Some people.
WhKnuckle
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11/5/2011 9:03am
SteveS wrote:
Which would you rather have? A group that says, "We have candidates we don't agree with in the crosshairs for defeat at the next election." Or...
Which would you rather have? A group that says, "We have candidates we don't agree with in the crosshairs for defeat at the next election." Or a group which throws rocks through plate glass windows of numerous banks and defecates on police cars?
You mean a Tea Party rally that has 90% of those people who want to advocate for a political point of view (even if it's an irrational one like cut my taxes and balance the budget) and 10% of them who are seriously militia lunatics walking around with AK47s, advocating actual violent insurrection and selling survivalist bullshit? All mobs are composed of some rational people and some irrational people - I don't like the OWS tactic because very long-term demonstrations inevitably go out of control. But the OWS demonstrators are no different in composition to the Tea Party demonstrators. And it should be pointed out that the only OWS demonstrations that I know of really getting violent were the ones that were attacked by police first. If police had tear gassed the "Bring Your Guns To Washington" rally, how do you think that would have turned out?

The other similarity is that neither group has an achievable goal. Both are symbolic demonstrations.
SteveS
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11/5/2011 9:06am
Fail. There were no police around when they broke the bank windows.

http://www.sfbg.com/politics/2011/11/02/bank-window-broken-occupy-oakla…;

Steven T. Jones reports from the streets of Oakland:

I'm at the intersection of 20th and Webster and a large march is going by, headed toward City Hall. The protesters are passing the Chase Bank branch that was such down earlier, and the windows of the bank are shattered. This happened sometime after the protesters who had blocked the bank entrance walked away.

There are signs on the broken window -- one says "We are better than this." The other says "This is not the 99 percent, sorry -- the 99 percent."

The broken bank windows are the only expression of violence or anger I've seen. (UPDATE: Windows have now been broken at Band of America, Whole Foods, Clorox and Wells Fargo. It's a small group of black bloc protesters who are doing the vandalism.)

The entire day, there have been no police around. The Occupy Oakland people are doing traffic control on their own, diverting cars around the streets.
WhKnuckle
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11/5/2011 9:18am
SteveS wrote:
Fail. There were no police around when they broke the bank windows. http://www.sfbg.com/politics/2011/11/02/bank-window-broken-occupy-oakland-apologizes Steven T. Jones reports from the streets of Oakland: I'm at the intersection...
Fail. There were no police around when they broke the bank windows.

http://www.sfbg.com/politics/2011/11/02/bank-window-broken-occupy-oakla…;

Steven T. Jones reports from the streets of Oakland:

I'm at the intersection of 20th and Webster and a large march is going by, headed toward City Hall. The protesters are passing the Chase Bank branch that was such down earlier, and the windows of the bank are shattered. This happened sometime after the protesters who had blocked the bank entrance walked away.

There are signs on the broken window -- one says "We are better than this." The other says "This is not the 99 percent, sorry -- the 99 percent."

The broken bank windows are the only expression of violence or anger I've seen. (UPDATE: Windows have now been broken at Band of America, Whole Foods, Clorox and Wells Fargo. It's a small group of black bloc protesters who are doing the vandalism.)

The entire day, there have been no police around. The Occupy Oakland people are doing traffic control on their own, diverting cars around the streets.
The police tear gassed and charged the demonstrators with billy clubs in Oakland days ago, and that's when the movement went out of control. It went out of control due to stupid police overreaction. Even in New York, where police pepper sprayed demonstrators and beat the hell of out several of them simply for filming the event, the demonstrations were relatively peaceful, albeit messy and with the kind of problems you'd expect when you get a group of people who are going to demonstrate for months on end. Again, I don't support the OWS tatics because you can't "occupy" unless you have some short term, achievable goal - you can't "occupy" indefinitely. When that tactic was chosen, nasty things were guaranteed to happen. If the Tea Party had held a "Bring Your Guns To Washington And Never Leave" rally, it would have been a bloodbath eventually. But the Tea Party's undercurrent of advocation of violence is no better (or worse) than the OWS undercurrent of extreme civil disobedience. The big difference was that the Tea Party was run by a political party - the Republican party - and they knew better than to do a long-term demonstration because that was inevitably going to go out of control. Neither group has a moral high ground because both groups are making impossible demands and both groups have inner workings that advocate for very hostile actions. But until I see OWS people advocating for their supporters to go out and buy guns and food and stock up for a civil war, I have to say the Tea Party loonies are the really dangerous people.
bsm121
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11/5/2011 9:52am
WhKnuckle wrote:
You don't remember and organized "Bring Your Guns to Washington" rally? You don't rememeber various Tea Party groups openly advocating that people should bring assault weapons...
You don't remember and organized "Bring Your Guns to Washington" rally? You don't rememeber various Tea Party groups openly advocating that people should bring assault weapons to public presidential events? You don't remember the constant threat to "exercise our second ammendment rights"? You don't remember the plethora of bullseye and crosshairs signs - professionally done - that showed up at Tea Party rallies all over the country?
i remember the guns being a legal form ofs ymbolism...no one ever suggested or advocated using them against the governement. that's a stretch.
bsm121
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11/5/2011 9:52am
but everyone at a Tea Party rally is affiliated with the Tea party, right...
Sherwood
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11/5/2011 10:00am
I like the willingness, I'd like them to change their name to something else so people understand what there doing and also like to see them get a leader.
Sherwood
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11/5/2011 10:01am
The TEA party didn't trash things or leave feces in the park.
Sherwood
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11/5/2011 10:08am
WhKnuckle wrote:
Maybe you could try reading the whole thing. Or not. I don't give a shit either way.
bsm121 wrote:
i did read the whole thing, and it's well written, however, the obvious slant inserted against the Tea Party makes what is otherwise a poignant observation...
i did read the whole thing, and it's well written, however, the obvious slant inserted against the Tea Party makes what is otherwise a poignant observation seem petty...just not sure why you chose to go that route, that's all.
WhKnuckle wrote:
Because it's the truth. And because the two movements are equally irrational. "End Wall Street" is just as irrational as "cut taxes and balance the budget"...
Because it's the truth. And because the two movements are equally irrational. "End Wall Street" is just as irrational as "cut taxes and balance the budget". And they're both basically mob mentalities.
It's not rational to want to cut taxes and balance the budget?
jmar
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11/5/2011 10:10am
bsm121 wrote:
i did read the whole thing, and it's well written, however, the obvious slant inserted against the Tea Party makes what is otherwise a poignant observation...
i did read the whole thing, and it's well written, however, the obvious slant inserted against the Tea Party makes what is otherwise a poignant observation seem petty...just not sure why you chose to go that route, that's all.
WhKnuckle wrote:
Because it's the truth. And because the two movements are equally irrational. "End Wall Street" is just as irrational as "cut taxes and balance the budget"...
Because it's the truth. And because the two movements are equally irrational. "End Wall Street" is just as irrational as "cut taxes and balance the budget". And they're both basically mob mentalities.
Sherwood wrote:
It's not rational to want to cut taxes and balance the budget?
It's not rational at this point and time of our economy.
Sherwood
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11/5/2011 10:13am
WhKnuckle wrote:
Because it's the truth. And because the two movements are equally irrational. "End Wall Street" is just as irrational as "cut taxes and balance the budget"...
Because it's the truth. And because the two movements are equally irrational. "End Wall Street" is just as irrational as "cut taxes and balance the budget". And they're both basically mob mentalities.
Sherwood wrote:
It's not rational to want to cut taxes and balance the budget?
jmar wrote:
It's not rational at this point and time of our economy.
Overspending is the answer.
Sherwood
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11/5/2011 10:15am
DOn't let the poo they left not in porta-johns get in the way either.
Sherwood
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11/5/2011 10:16am
WhKnuckle wrote:
Because it's the truth. And because the two movements are equally irrational. "End Wall Street" is just as irrational as "cut taxes and balance the budget"...
Because it's the truth. And because the two movements are equally irrational. "End Wall Street" is just as irrational as "cut taxes and balance the budget". And they're both basically mob mentalities.
Sherwood wrote:
It's not rational to want to cut taxes and balance the budget?
jmar wrote:
It's not rational at this point and time of our economy.
I agree.

Keep spending and see what happens.
Sherwood
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11/5/2011 10:23am
So all the news organizations that reported it are wrong?

Ok I believe you.
jmar
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11/5/2011 10:26am
Sherwood wrote:
It's not rational to want to cut taxes and balance the budget?
jmar wrote:
It's not rational at this point and time of our economy.
Sherwood wrote:
I agree.

Keep spending and see what happens.
I don't agree with the spending either. But one mans profit is another mans debt, and that's what we should all be worried about.
Sherwood
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11/5/2011 10:28am
jmar wrote:
It's not rational at this point and time of our economy.
Sherwood wrote:
I agree.

Keep spending and see what happens.
jmar wrote:
I don't agree with the spending either. But one mans profit is another mans debt, and that's what we should all be worried about.
So you don't agree with spending and you don't agree with a balanced budget?

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