workng on chassis "Stuff"

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6/19/2019 9:49 AM

Maybe is just me, but does anyone else get ticked off when a rider says they are working on or have been testing chassis stuff. I am not denying that there are changes to be made which influence the feel and flex of a bikes chassis, but I think 70% of the riders on the track actually know enough about bikes and testing to use the phrase. These guys need to think and speak for themselves rather than regurgitate the lingo they are hearing at the practice track

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I don't crash, I just run out of talent

6/19/2019 9:54 AM

Haha, yeah, uh, no

Many of these riders are NOT good testers and/or have no clue on how to dial a bike in

They have a ton of choices on set up between linkage, triple clamps, off set, wheel base and of course shock/forks and their settings

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Make sure you downvote!

6/19/2019 9:59 AM

Why would one get “ticked off”? I’d ask a follow up question, like “What are you changing to improve the chassis feel?”

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6/19/2019 10:50 AM

NJKawi913 wrote:

Maybe is just me, but does anyone else get ticked off when a rider says they are working on or have been testing chassis ...more

Are we talking about professional racers on factory-level teams, or local dudes at Chickenlick's Raceway?

If I say something like "chassis setup" at the local track, I mean set your fork height, sag, maybe even a longer linkage or a triple clamp offset.

If I hear it from a pro on TV, it includes the above, plus a whole host of engine hangers, torque settings on fasteners, and more.

Plenty of young pro racers probably don't feel the small changes that a team can make to a bike the way an experienced test rider can. Don't discount the fact that a good team can explain what feeling to look for to the rider and help them improve their testing skill. I do this with my friends from time to time, helping them understand how fork-height, sag and rebound change the way the bike enters and exits a turn, and what they should expect to feel. It's completely plausible that a good team can guide a young professional racer to an understanding of how to test and how to feel these minute changes to a chassis.

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6/21/2019 2:41 PM

I've always held the belief that you set your bike up before the season and then adjust your riding style for each track... not the bike. JMB agrees with me. I think the pros spend too much time these days worrying about their settings.

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Braaapin' aint easy.

6/21/2019 3:20 PM
Edited Date/Time: 6/21/2019 3:50 PM

Falcon wrote:

I've always held the belief that you set your bike up before the season and then adjust your riding style for each track... ...more

JMB agrees with you ?? oh ok .pinch You agree with him maybe.

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6/21/2019 3:45 PM

Falcon wrote:

I've always held the belief that you set your bike up before the season and then adjust your riding style for each track... ...more

lostboy819 wrote:

JMB agrees with you ?? oh ok .pinch You agree with him maybe.

I read the same thing about JMB. He would find a setting he liked and stick with it because he knew exactly what it was going to do. Setup is always a compromise, you just find the least amount of compromise.

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Take it to the limit, one more time!

6/21/2019 3:59 PM

Falcon wrote:

I've always held the belief that you set your bike up before the season and then adjust your riding style for each track... ...more

lostboy819 wrote:

JMB agrees with you ?? oh ok .pinch You agree with him maybe.

mx317 wrote:

I read the same thing about JMB. He would find a setting he liked and stick with it because he knew exactly what it was going ...more

Ask RC, similar outlook.

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6/21/2019 4:16 PM

lostboy819 wrote:

JMB agrees with you ?? oh ok .pinch You agree with him maybe.

mx317 wrote:

I read the same thing about JMB. He would find a setting he liked and stick with it because he knew exactly what it was going ...more

ML512 wrote:

Ask RC, similar outlook.

lostboy819 does that mean RC agrees with JMB or is it the other way around?

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6/21/2019 5:48 PM

Falcon wrote:

I've always held the belief that you set your bike up before the season and then adjust your riding style for each track... ...more

lostboy819 wrote:

JMB agrees with you ?? oh ok .pinch You agree with him maybe.

Potato, potahto. grin

Actually, I felt this way long before I knew who Bayle was. We did it differently in the '80s! cool

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Braaapin' aint easy.

6/21/2019 6:24 PM

im an insensitive average joe and i still work on chassis stuff. Moving forks up and down, seat bumps, sag, levers, bars, grips, pegs.. are those not chassis items? All 3 contact points are involved. How do you not feel it?

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6/21/2019 7:22 PM

kb228 wrote:

im an insensitive average joe and i still work on chassis stuff. Moving forks up and down, seat bumps, sag, levers, bars, ...more

At the pro level - chassis stuff is much deeper

At the ktm pro level in gp racing - it’s as far as unique frames for each rider.

I don’t KNOW this to be true in the USA but I definitely suspect it

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6/22/2019 4:07 PM

My opinion on it is I don't think most of us guys can comprehend the feeling a pro racer has for their bike. To beat the fastest guys in the world they need to get the most out of their machine and in order to do that you have to feel comfortable. I'm a weekend warrior so I just go out and I'm happy to be riding period but I can imagine how they must feel. I don't think any regular Joe can relate.

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6/22/2019 4:33 PM

most people will never truly understand how good or bad a particular chassis is because we can't ride them hard enough to pound through everything like the pros do....which is where the frame characteristics are mostly felt.

The top teams are also measuring and recording data now, which is going to drive more accurate software that can help the OEMs make a more predictable model for future products. I'm fairly certain the suspension technicians are looking at frame strain gage data when developing and testing different settings.

I always had a theory that the Tomac William's split was because Williams is a traditionalist and working from RV2's track log books instead of adopting the new methods which are getting more technical and sophisticated, driven by the data that's being collected on the track. I think this is where people are false in saying he wanted Eli to run RV2s setups, but more so that William's method of developing the bike was based on how he and RV2 did it many years ago.

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6/22/2019 4:38 PM

Derek Harris wrote:

At the pro level - chassis stuff is much deeper

At the ktm pro level in gp racing - it’s as far as unique frames for each ...more

Man I was about to rip into whoever posted this then I saw it was you. You are def in the know. You suspect the American KTM team illegally alters ftames?

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6/23/2019 7:54 AM

kb228 wrote:

im an insensitive average joe and i still work on chassis stuff. Moving forks up and down, seat bumps, sag, levers, bars, ...more

Derek Harris wrote:

At the pro level - chassis stuff is much deeper

At the ktm pro level in gp racing - it’s as far as unique frames for each ...more

cbuehler767 wrote:

Man I was about to rip into whoever posted this then I saw it was you. You are def in the know. You suspect the American KTM ...more

I have no doubt they are modified - just look at the frame brace they ran in sx (and maybe outdoors)

But the ama has no clue or baseline to go off - you really think they buy 10 frames and cut them up and measure profiles and thicknesses???

Then cut up team bikes to compare - ain’t happening

Honda literally crushes and cuts up their frames and engines when they are done with them. Why would they do that’s if it was above board?. For years I’ve said and suspected that the factories cheat any way they can. I said it before - how was it Chad reeds privateer Honda - that has no expense spared - ti parts - etc etc
Was 10 lbs heavier than the factory Honda he rode (as per the racer x article of that year )
He had same suspension parts - wheels and all that
So frame and engine is where it was - and 10pbs is no joke!

I watched a non mx related video of wp group - who makes Ktm frames - and they talked about making custom frames for Herlings and Cairoli and how they were unique for each guy etc etc
They like steel because they can do a whole new frame design from idea to produced in 2 weeks
Apparently aluminum takes far longer with the unique castings and extrusions used.

What stops them from doing same here? Small thickness variations make huge differences and ktm could even claim they are addressing mid year production improvement to reduce issues or something - ama couldnt argue with that

Even if the frame starts out productions - the gussets they have already been seen to add - the work you can’t see they can do - etc - makes their chassis testing far diff the avg joe

Hell metcalf on record said - oh just testing swingarms today

Rules are quite clear that it must be production - hmmm





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6/23/2019 8:00 AM

Side note - watch the mxa video feature on ac bike and look really closely at all the welds

Every one is polished out - beyond polished. They are sanded out and smoothed to no real bead/dime

And it’s on certain areas of swing arm too

I have an engineering back ground - and its totally possible that’s only done for stress concentration relief. But to think it wouldn’t make a massive feel difference would be insane. It makes a huge difference.

Bones said on whiskey throttle show - suspension is 25 percent of what you feel. Chassis is 75

These teams are doing all they can to improve that 75 percent window which is more influential than the 25 percent window.

When reedy rode factory Honda triple clamps on his privateer bike and said it felt night and day different - so much so he had to revisit offset and all his testing - it makes you wonder just how many little
Tiny things can be done

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6/23/2019 1:41 PM

Thanks Derek. Very interesting stuff

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6/23/2019 1:47 PM

These guys are so amazing at feeling out their bikes, it makes my head spin. I've never been sensitive enough to really feel a major difference between small setting changes. Turn my clickers 10 clicks and maybe I'd notice. grin

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Braaapin' aint easy.