what does the Canadian/Australian class structure answer?

montesagold
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7/12/2015 9:15pm Edited Date/Time 7/14/2015 8:19am
With all the 2vs4 b.s. that goes around and round in the past, what does it tell us that we now have seen how 2s and 4s racing heads up in the same class?I've not kept up with it a great deal but what ive seen, it makes for some good racing in the few Canadian races ive watched.
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montesagold
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7/12/2015 9:29pm
Maybe I should say they are competitive with no clear advantage.
Chadillac661
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7/12/2015 10:01pm
I agree completely, I think it makes the racing better because each type of bike has its advantages and disadvantages on different parts of the racetrack. I just can't understand why our sanctioning body here in the US is so fearful of the OEM's and their 4 stroke "agenda" when its clearly better for the sport (my opinion of course)

Let the racers ride what they want and if the OEM's that don't produce two strokes want to bitch, let them bitch.

I don't see them pulling out either way. Why would they pull out of the SX/MX series in the US if they haven't drawn a line in the sand or pulled out of racing in Canada or Aus? It just won't happen.

The AMA seems to be just a shadow of it's former self and the tail wags the dog more times than not these days.
JW381
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7/12/2015 10:09pm
To answer your question, it tells us that those 2 series are much smaller. Duh, right? What I mean is that the OEMs apparently don't care if their 250Fs get beat by a dinosaur 2 stroke if it's in Canada or Austrailia, where the exposure is minimal. But in the AMA or MXGP circuits, not a chance. To me, that reaffirms the notion that you have to follow the money when it comes to that particular set of rules.
montesagold
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7/12/2015 10:14pm
With all the snippets of expert opinion you hear from emig/windham/beirer/ and other who say the 450 class is like the 500 class of old along with evidence that the lights fast is just as fast at certain tracks, wouldn't it make sense to open up the rules to equal displacement and slowly promote the 250 as an equal/superior championship?

The Shop

montesagold
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7/12/2015 10:16pm
JW381 wrote:
To answer your question, it tells us that those 2 series are much smaller. Duh, right? What I mean is that the OEMs apparently don't care...
To answer your question, it tells us that those 2 series are much smaller. Duh, right? What I mean is that the OEMs apparently don't care if their 250Fs get beat by a dinosaur 2 stroke if it's in Canada or Austrailia, where the exposure is minimal. But in the AMA or MXGP circuits, not a chance. To me, that reaffirms the notion that you have to follow the money when it comes to that particular set of rules.
Makes sense but dont those smaller series get support from the same manufacturers on a smaller scale of course?
Crush
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7/12/2015 10:55pm
Pretty interesting to me watching the pros and cons of each engine type in different areas around the track... Also allowed for a bunch of riders to actually afford racing down here.

Might just be a good idea to lower the competitive engine costs of the "entry" class over there...
scott_nz
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7/12/2015 11:01pm
it proves not a hell of a lot, but that the best riders will win on anything,

but it could be argued that esp in australia's case, that there are less paid rides in the lites class since these rules came in, and if you look at AMA superbike, if you piss off the manufactures and they leave the sport, its not a good thing,
SwapperMX
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7/12/2015 11:18pm
scott_nz wrote:
it proves not a hell of a lot, but that the best riders will win on anything, but it could be argued that esp in australia's...
it proves not a hell of a lot, but that the best riders will win on anything,

but it could be argued that esp in australia's case, that there are less paid rides in the lites class since these rules came in, and if you look at AMA superbike, if you piss off the manufactures and they leave the sport, its not a good thing,
There has been less paid rides and less race teams in the paddock since the economy took a down turn. That isn't just a coincidence. I really don't think the sport will ever see the same heights here in Australia that it did in the early to mid 2000's.
scott_nz
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7/12/2015 11:27pm
scott_nz wrote:
it proves not a hell of a lot, but that the best riders will win on anything, but it could be argued that esp in australia's...
it proves not a hell of a lot, but that the best riders will win on anything,

but it could be argued that esp in australia's case, that there are less paid rides in the lites class since these rules came in, and if you look at AMA superbike, if you piss off the manufactures and they leave the sport, its not a good thing,
SwapperMX wrote:
There has been less paid rides and less race teams in the paddock since the economy took a down turn. That isn't just a coincidence. I...
There has been less paid rides and less race teams in the paddock since the economy took a down turn. That isn't just a coincidence. I really don't think the sport will ever see the same heights here in Australia that it did in the early to mid 2000's.
I agree, I think it will be a while until we reach those bike sales numbers again which will create the interest in racing again to the same levels,

Chadillac661
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7/12/2015 11:54pm
With the escalating costs of racing and increased noise issues (both a side effect of the four stroke movement) I doubt we will see those previous sales numbers anytime soon, if ever?
aaryn #234
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7/13/2015 3:50am Edited Date/Time 7/13/2015 3:52am
scott_nz wrote:
it proves not a hell of a lot, but that the best riders will win on anything, but it could be argued that esp in australia's...
it proves not a hell of a lot, but that the best riders will win on anything,

but it could be argued that esp in australia's case, that there are less paid rides in the lites class since these rules came in, and if you look at AMA superbike, if you piss off the manufactures and they leave the sport, its not a good thing,
SwapperMX wrote:
There has been less paid rides and less race teams in the paddock since the economy took a down turn. That isn't just a coincidence. I...
There has been less paid rides and less race teams in the paddock since the economy took a down turn. That isn't just a coincidence. I really don't think the sport will ever see the same heights here in Australia that it did in the early to mid 2000's.
scott_nz wrote:
I agree, I think it will be a while until we reach those bike sales numbers again which will create the interest in racing again to...
I agree, I think it will be a while until we reach those bike sales numbers again which will create the interest in racing again to the same levels,

I have only been to two nationals this year (In Aus), but had a look through the results from the weekend.

There was a full gate of 40 MX2 riders. I have not seen that at a mid season round for quite a number of years.

Certainly the two stroke rule has helped keep a few riders on the gates. As for Factory level rides here in Aus for the MX2 class......

There are the two Serco Yamaha bikes.

Everyone else is on a Factory supported privateer ride.

Actually there is one Factory bike on the line that is a true Factory bike, it is the sweetest sounding bike in the field and looks completely stock from the outside.
mayzo
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7/13/2015 4:05am
I went to my first National in years 2 weeks ago (Terrace) and both the litres races were awesome.
2st won the first race and 4st the second. The racing was pretty close in both.
Bikes were fairly evenly matched to me. Even in race 2 there was a TM running in 3rd for a while.
I think it works well for Australia.
7/13/2015 4:31am
With all the 2vs4 b.s. that goes around and round in the past, what does it tell us that we now have seen how 2s and...
With all the 2vs4 b.s. that goes around and round in the past, what does it tell us that we now have seen how 2s and 4s racing heads up in the same class?I've not kept up with it a great deal but what ive seen, it makes for some good racing in the few Canadian races ive watched.
Where are you watching Canadian nationals?
7/13/2015 4:34am
scott_nz wrote:
it proves not a hell of a lot, but that the best riders will win on anything, but it could be argued that esp in australia's...
it proves not a hell of a lot, but that the best riders will win on anything,

but it could be argued that esp in australia's case, that there are less paid rides in the lites class since these rules came in, and if you look at AMA superbike, if you piss off the manufactures and they leave the sport, its not a good thing,
KTM, Husqvarna, TM, and Yamaha make 2 and 4 stroke mx bikes. There are others but those are fairly large and established.

Why are people so fixated on Honda?
SEE ARE125
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7/13/2015 5:11am
But if the AMA did go the route of the Canadian/Australian series, would the manufacturers REALLY pull out? I'm pretty sure more bikes are sold in the US than anywhere else. I doubt the Japs would pack it up and leave the entire US market to KTM/Husky.
montesagold
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7/13/2015 5:49am
Where are you watching Canadian nationals?
only a few full motos on youtube and random highlights, all on youtube.
montesagold
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7/13/2015 5:53am
SEE ARE125 wrote:
But if the AMA did go the route of the Canadian/Australian series, would the manufacturers REALLY pull out? I'm pretty sure more bikes are sold in...
But if the AMA did go the route of the Canadian/Australian series, would the manufacturers REALLY pull out? I'm pretty sure more bikes are sold in the US than anywhere else. I doubt the Japs would pack it up and leave the entire US market to KTM/Husky.
exactly, of coarse they wouldn't. being there is more factory support here, theyre would most likely be only a few out there other than privateers. what about KTM/Husky? think they would put a guy on one? why not?

Also, does anyone know much about the rules in either Canada or Australia? I know when first implemented in Australia wasnt there some limits on the 2strokes to keep it closer?
Bearuno
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7/13/2015 7:04am
SEE ARE125 wrote:
But if the AMA did go the route of the Canadian/Australian series, would the manufacturers REALLY pull out? I'm pretty sure more bikes are sold in...
But if the AMA did go the route of the Canadian/Australian series, would the manufacturers REALLY pull out? I'm pretty sure more bikes are sold in the US than anywhere else. I doubt the Japs would pack it up and leave the entire US market to KTM/Husky.
Within a few clicks on that computer / tablet / phone you are on, you'll find out just how many bikes are sold, all around the world.

Something like 483,526 bikes sold in the US last sales year that I saw

In the same year, with ATVs and Scooters removed from the equation, Australia had sales of approximately 92,000 Motorcycles.

I think there is nearly 14 times the population in the US compared to OZ.. Per capita sales, it's quite surprising.

Not knocking US - but the long established Western Markets (OZ included) are losing their significance for most manufacturers. Brazil,for example, has sales well over the million mark - Argentina, that so many in MX circles said "WTF was an MXGP being held there?", even with a collapse of their market in the last few years, had sales of around 484,700. Sales in India, China, Vietnam, Indonesia and many other growing markets, are quite mind boggling. Sure, much of the sales are basic, commuter level bikes, but they are in huge numbers, with quite high 'percentage profit' levels to them. And, if even a tiny percentage of many emerging market buyers become interested in 'Toys', well, the sales number of those 'Toys', will utterly dwarf our markets.

Let's hope the advertising / bragging rights that Western Racing series have, can be of real use to most manufacturers, otherwise, we might see racing budgets going towards other nations racing series.

In OZ, the MX2 class is better through equivalency, it's as simple as that. We've never had many big paying rides / big teams. A bloke making the equivalent of a skilled and successful tradesman is, usually, the best we have here. Fair enough - good tradesmen have a pretty good living.It's great to see blokes, at least a few of them, being able to make a bit of a living from riding bikes. Go OS if you want to make Big money - not that many OS riders really do - it's always the successful (very) few that make mega bucks. That's always been the way it goes

DC has 'his' GNCC XC2 class to show how appropriate equivalency is - hell, the 2Ts haven't decimated the 4Ts. They are so well matched.

Come on DC / MX Sports, std up to the Gorillas - they won't pull out, and simple equivalency is in no way like what DMG did to the US Road Racing classes, that so pissed off most manufacturers. That, was truly Idiocy of the highest order - I do hope Moto America can sort out that disaster - they seem to be doing quite well, so far.

Std 250 2Ts now have only about 4 to 5 HP advantage over a few of the std 250Fs, and the 250Fs have usually, another 4 to 5K revs over a 250 2T they can use. Each type, has it's advantages, and it's disadvantages against the other. And hell, the Moto3 class in Road Race GPs, is starting to show (through control rules), that 250 4Ts don't have to be revved to the moon to produce good power - they are currently limited to 13,500 RPM, and I think it's going to drop further in the years to come.

CC for CC racing - and DC - take in the EMX125 class as an example of what you should also have at US Nationals. Hell, I see 'Press Day' videos constantly, that, from what I can gather, are usually on Thursday, so you could have at least one 125 Moto on Friday,with say one to put into the Saturday races and real practice for all riders / teams on the Friday. Mind you, I'm not sure if that would interfere with the amateur racing that is held on National weekends - I assume that's quite a money maker for MX Sports, or, the local track promoter.
hvaughn88
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7/13/2015 7:07am
This should go well.
7/13/2015 7:22am
Set a class cc limit with noise limitations, run what you brung, the cream will rise to the top the majority of the time.

Those that show promise will get help from the folks with the good stuff.
Bearuno
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7/13/2015 7:39am
hvaughn88 wrote:
This should go well.
If people read it - though it might be far too long for some - and have a bit of comprehension, it should not upset anyone.The sales numbers are there to be found by all - that some people still seem to think that the US purchases the most motorcycles in the world, truly is surprising

But, when, most of the time, when anything is written that someone chooses to take as "US Hating", people will go into 'Butt Hurt' mode.

I'm just quoting easily found sales numbers, and comparing sales per capita - with No intention of belittling US sales, or 'bigging up' OZ sales. Indeed, I have included OZ sales in my example of how small sales are in many long established markets.

We don't buy as many bikes as people seem to think. It's as simple as that. As I said, we better hope the rest of the World has a continuing / growing in interest in our racing scenes - that will keep the factories interested in putting money into our racing.

But go ahead, if people choose to get their knickers in a twist, well, , so be it.Whistling
hvaughn88
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7/13/2015 7:43am
hvaughn88 wrote:
This should go well.
Bearuno wrote:
If people read it - though it might be far too long for some - and have a bit of comprehension, it should not upset anyone.The...
If people read it - though it might be far too long for some - and have a bit of comprehension, it should not upset anyone.The sales numbers are there to be found by all - that some people still seem to think that the US purchases the most motorcycles in the world, truly is surprising

But, when, most of the time, when anything is written that someone chooses to take as "US Hating", people will go into 'Butt Hurt' mode.

I'm just quoting easily found sales numbers, and comparing sales per capita - with No intention of belittling US sales, or 'bigging up' OZ sales. Indeed, I have included OZ sales in my example of how small sales are in many long established markets.

We don't buy as many bikes as people seem to think. It's as simple as that. As I said, we better hope the rest of the World has a continuing / growing in interest in our racing scenes - that will keep the factories interested in putting money into our racing.

But go ahead, if people choose to get their knickers in a twist, well, , so be it.Whistling
Oh trust me, you don't have to explain yourself to me. It just seems any thread that involves 2 vs 4 ends up the same way. That's all I was getting at.
Bearuno
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7/13/2015 7:50am
No worries - sorry that I thought you might be one of the '(I wanna get all) Butt Hurt' brigade.Cool



SEE ARE125
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7/13/2015 10:14am
Good point Bearuno, and no offense taken. I was a bit busy this morning so I didn't have time to look up the number of units sold. You seem to bring up a good point about the global interest in the US series. Not trying to belittle other series, but would it be safe to assume that the US series give more exposure for the manufacturers than any other series? I know MXGP gets a lot, but the US has two premier series (MX and SX), which is pretty much year round exposure. I guess that's kind of what I was getting at with my post, that the manufacturers wouldn't want to give up the all the marketing/exposure they're getting between both of the US series. AMA Nationals, Supercross, and MXGP are the heavy hitters(no offense meant to other series), so I can't really see them pulling out of 2/3 of their largest markets.
montesagold
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7/13/2015 10:57am
When was the last time the US has had a change in the rules concerning CC's and bike eligibility? I dont keep up with that kind of stuff like in the past but its seems like over a long period everyfew seasons the rules were being tweeked to adjust for advancement of 4st technology. At what point did that stop and why?

Alot of people talk about the twostrokes being discriminated against and yes i agree, alot of the politcs that pushed them out was very deceiving but recently,what signs do we have to go on the the manufactures are making a push to keep the smokers out? just seems like talk has dyed down and been replaced by a bunch of 2vs4 debates.
OW38B
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7/13/2015 11:09am Edited Date/Time 7/13/2015 11:09am
When was the last time the US has had a change in the rules concerning CC's and bike eligibility? I dont keep up with that kind...
When was the last time the US has had a change in the rules concerning CC's and bike eligibility? I dont keep up with that kind of stuff like in the past but its seems like over a long period everyfew seasons the rules were being tweeked to adjust for advancement of 4st technology. At what point did that stop and why?

Alot of people talk about the twostrokes being discriminated against and yes i agree, alot of the politcs that pushed them out was very deceiving but recently,what signs do we have to go on the the manufactures are making a push to keep the smokers out? just seems like talk has dyed down and been replaced by a bunch of 2vs4 debates.
The upper limit on the 4 strokes was 550cc until around 2001 or so when John Dowd and the rest of the KTM team were holeshotting almost every race on the KTM 525.

Honda complained their 450cc was at an unfair advantage and the rule was changed to a limit of 450cc. Though Honda didn't mind they had double the displacement of the 2 strokes, they thought 75cc was unfair.
montesagold
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7/13/2015 11:25am
OW38B wrote:
The upper limit on the 4 strokes was 550cc until around 2001 or so when John Dowd and the rest of the KTM team were holeshotting...
The upper limit on the 4 strokes was 550cc until around 2001 or so when John Dowd and the rest of the KTM team were holeshotting almost every race on the KTM 525.

Honda complained their 450cc was at an unfair advantage and the rule was changed to a limit of 450cc. Though Honda didn't mind they had double the displacement of the 2 strokes, they thought 75cc was unfair.
Yea Iremember that! I kept a close eye on all the industry side of things up until Cycle News paper copy went out. The past say 5-7 years or so there hasn't been much talk but again, i've been out of the loop for about that long.
OW38B
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7/13/2015 9:16pm
OW38B wrote:
The upper limit on the 4 strokes was 550cc until around 2001 or so when John Dowd and the rest of the KTM team were holeshotting...
The upper limit on the 4 strokes was 550cc until around 2001 or so when John Dowd and the rest of the KTM team were holeshotting almost every race on the KTM 525.

Honda complained their 450cc was at an unfair advantage and the rule was changed to a limit of 450cc. Though Honda didn't mind they had double the displacement of the 2 strokes, they thought 75cc was unfair.
Yea Iremember that! I kept a close eye on all the industry side of things up until Cycle News paper copy went out. The past say...
Yea Iremember that! I kept a close eye on all the industry side of things up until Cycle News paper copy went out. The past say 5-7 years or so there hasn't been much talk but again, i've been out of the loop for about that long.
Welcome back to the fight. Wink

Two Stroke Freedom Fighters.........
aaryn #234
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7/14/2015 12:52am
mayzo wrote:
I went to my first National in years 2 weeks ago (Terrace) and both the litres races were awesome. 2st won the first race and 4st...
I went to my first National in years 2 weeks ago (Terrace) and both the litres races were awesome.
2st won the first race and 4st the second. The racing was pretty close in both.
Bikes were fairly evenly matched to me. Even in race 2 there was a TM running in 3rd for a while.
I think it works well for Australia.
Nick Sutherland on that TM, kid can ride, he will line up at a couple more rounds this year and hopefully be back on the circuit full time in 2016.

As for the Cc V CC racing, from what I understand pretty much everywhere in the world now apart from the Pro Level in the U.S and the MXGP, the 250 two strokes do race against the 250 Four strokes.

At the clubman / Vet / Amature leve here in Aus, all though they can race against each other, from what I am seeing the number of guys jumping back to the two stroke is a very small percentage, however for the non racer guy out just having fun on the weekend with his mates, the numbers seem to be slowing growing.

cc v cc the 250F will be the much easier and faster bike for the average bloke to race consistently. If you are just out riding with your mates, who gives a fuck what you are riding as long as it has two wheels and a motor!

Plenty of choices for the two stroke fans to buy new bikes and a overflowing second hand market, well here in Aus anyway.
Reggsie
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7/14/2015 1:27am
I'm just going to copy and paste what I said in a similar thread for simplicities sake.

I don't like the idea of 250 two strokes in the lites class simlpy because to my mind they aren't a lites bike. They are a premier class bike. The problem with allowing equal displacement is then you have three totally different engines eligible to compete with one another, 125, 250f and 2502t. The argument is always made that the 250f is too big a jump for kids coming off super minis; well the 250 two stroke is an even bigger jump again! Another problem with equal displacement is that it condems the 125 to obsolescence.

In my ideal scenario, which will never, ever happen, 2502t's stay in the premier class, but the four stroke capacities are reduced, so that 125s race again 200fs, and 2502t race against 350/400fs, or something to that effect. The problem isn't that two strokes aren't powerful enough, it's that their four stroke equivalents are too powerful. Reducing four stroke capacities would single handedly revive the 125 as a viable engine, and make the classes more or less fair, whereas equivalency would kill the 125 dead, and that would be a great shame.

Another option I think would work, and which is probably more feasible than my scenario is the previously mentioned 125, 250 and open class system. We don't want to lose the 125, it's an important stepping stone and easily the funnest full size bike you can ride.

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