the rear brake on the bars (home page)

Jamie_Munro
Edited Date/Time 6/17/2012 10:59pm
ok so this has been in MotoGP/WSB/BSB and no doubt AMA track racing for some time, why doi you think has it taken so long to get to us but more importantly why have Rekluse decided to use what looks like a large second lever (that looks difficult to reach imo) instead of a simple push lever operated by the thumb?

They know loads more than me/most of us obviously and i am sure it is subject to change etc but it does have me thinking...
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CR500Rider
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CR500Rider 6/15/2012 9:36am
6/15/2012 9:36am
I would think a clutch/hot start lever setup would be a good layout. Just use the hot start lever as the rear brake. It's small and out of the way.
GuyB
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GuyB 6/15/2012 9:40am
6/15/2012 9:40am
Here are three reasons why it might be cool:

Personally, with all my cycling experience, I think I'd have more control with hand-operated rear brake than I would with a foot-operated brake.

Some people have compromised ankles (fused), or other injuries that'd prevent then from operating a rear brake.

Right hand turns.
TX24
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TX24 6/15/2012 10:58am
6/15/2012 10:58am
Several of my friends have had these. With an auto clutch on a KTM it's pretty simple. Easier to drag the rear going through whoops. As GuyB said you have a little more feel. Riding friends bike with it, I about put myself on my head a couple of times.
Not being used to it.
Top End
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Top End 6/15/2012 11:20am
6/15/2012 11:20am
I used to race DH Mountain bikes and like hand brakes better then foot. I was toying with the idea of making my clutch a rear brake and use an ATV thumb throttle as a clutch or a Rekluse. That way you just lock up the rear wheel if you space out and think it's the clutch. What do people use for brake and clutch so you don't have to move your wrist around?

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TeamGreen
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TeamGreen 6/15/2012 11:55am
6/15/2012 11:55am
GuyB wrote:
Here are three reasons why it might be cool: Personally, with all my cycling experience, I think I'd have more control with hand-operated rear brake than...
Here are three reasons why it might be cool:

Personally, with all my cycling experience, I think I'd have more control with hand-operated rear brake than I would with a foot-operated brake.

Some people have compromised ankles (fused), or other injuries that'd prevent then from operating a rear brake.

Right hand turns.
I have a friend that hasn't got a right foot.

As such, he has won a Silver Medal at the X-Games...on an RMZ450...with the Rear-Brake in-place of the Clutch-Lever and the bike runs a Rekluse EXP.

The Bike is a virtual works bike (Thanks to Yoshimura!)...and...I dare say that, as noted by Gibby...rear-brake control is impressive and superior to using your right foot.
wawazat
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wawazat 6/15/2012 12:06pm
6/15/2012 12:06pm
Seems like the latest gimmick part to me. Yeah it will work for guys like Ridge, but I don't see the masses jumping on this one.
uk125250
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uk125250 6/15/2012 12:35pm
6/15/2012 12:35pm
I can't imagine having a left grip throttle. It has to be harder for a left handed person to have good throttle control. How do Phils do it?
yzmatt
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yzmatt 6/15/2012 12:38pm
6/15/2012 12:38pm
I can see how it might actually work better, but I'm not sure I could re-program my brain after 30+ years of riding with a traditional setup. I'd be worried that I'd spaz out at the worst possible time. Dizzy
MR. X
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MR. X 6/15/2012 1:19pm
6/15/2012 1:19pm
I tried riding one of those ass backwards amf harleys once and i couldnt get used to the brake and shifter being switched. Its funny how muscle memory works
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chrisgg90 6/15/2012 1:20pm
6/15/2012 1:20pm
Having a bid of a dodgy right foot, (it only moves up and down, no left to right movement) I think it would help me a lot as I sometimes struggle with using the rear brake, depending on my body position on the bike. Can someone post the pic I can't see it on the home page
petrie141
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petrie141 6/15/2012 1:23pm
6/15/2012 1:23pm
Does it still bring the front end down in the air? Also, how fast do you have to use it? In other words, at what point does the bike stall when neglecting the clutch to throw on the back break? Since rekluse makes it, does that then mean it's auto-clutch and rear break package deal? What's the ama think about auto-clutches?
TX24
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TX24 6/15/2012 3:01pm
6/15/2012 3:01pm
petrie141 wrote:
Does it still bring the front end down in the air? Also, how fast do you have to use it? In other words, at what point...
Does it still bring the front end down in the air? Also, how fast do you have to use it? In other words, at what point does the bike stall when neglecting the clutch to throw on the back break? Since rekluse makes it, does that then mean it's auto-clutch and rear break package deal? What's the ama think about auto-clutches?
You can slam on the brakes to a dead stop with a properly set up Rekluse in any gear and the bike won't die.
DrSweden
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DrSweden 6/15/2012 3:32pm
6/15/2012 3:32pm
Sounds good on paper, but in the end, that extra xxx isn't what makes the diff between RV and me... Take RJ on a 86 CR250 and me or the rest of the heard on a bling CRF450 with 70 hp and Ti goddies, the results would be the same...

Also, I have seen people like CP sitting in corners with both feet on the pegs keeping others top three guys riding with spread eagle honest...
tobz
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tobz 6/15/2012 3:55pm
6/15/2012 3:55pm
petrie141 wrote:
Does it still bring the front end down in the air? Also, how fast do you have to use it? In other words, at what point...
Does it still bring the front end down in the air? Also, how fast do you have to use it? In other words, at what point does the bike stall when neglecting the clutch to throw on the back break? Since rekluse makes it, does that then mean it's auto-clutch and rear break package deal? What's the ama think about auto-clutches?
The front end drops when the rear wheels stops, why wouldn't it still drop the front end? :s
Jamie_Munro 6/15/2012 4:35pm
6/15/2012 4:35pm
DrSweden wrote:
Sounds good on paper, but in the end, that extra xxx isn't what makes the diff between RV and me... Take RJ on a 86 CR250...
Sounds good on paper, but in the end, that extra xxx isn't what makes the diff between RV and me... Take RJ on a 86 CR250 and me or the rest of the heard on a bling CRF450 with 70 hp and Ti goddies, the results would be the same...

Also, I have seen people like CP sitting in corners with both feet on the pegs keeping others top three guys riding with spread eagle honest...
not disagreeing with you, my query is why it's taken so long - it has to be an advantage plain n simple or they wouldn't abuse it in track racing.
sam111
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sam111 6/15/2012 8:48pm
6/15/2012 8:48pm Edited Date/Time 6/15/2012 8:50pm
I used to know a guy who had a YZF250 with a rekluse and the back brake on the left handlebar. I found the hardest habit to break was grabbing the brake (clutch) coming out of corners. It also felt a bit scary when I would go to push on the brake pedal with my foot going into corners and there was nothing there. I didn't spend nearly enough time on the bike to adjust to it though.

I don't feel having the brake on the handlebars would help me that much with control - I feel I can sufficiently control the back brake with my right foot. I also find that sometimes late in a moto if I'm getting tired, I subconsciously use the front brake a lot less so I can hold on. If the back brake were also mounted on the bars, I would effectively be riding with no brakes. I guess this is just a symptom of not being in perfect shape though.
petrie141
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petrie141 6/15/2012 8:54pm
6/15/2012 8:54pm
petrie141 wrote:
Does it still bring the front end down in the air? Also, how fast do you have to use it? In other words, at what point...
Does it still bring the front end down in the air? Also, how fast do you have to use it? In other words, at what point does the bike stall when neglecting the clutch to throw on the back break? Since rekluse makes it, does that then mean it's auto-clutch and rear break package deal? What's the ama think about auto-clutches?
tobz wrote:
The front end drops when the rear wheels stops, why wouldn't it still drop the front end? :s
Not sure, just thinking out loud. I don't know much about the physics behind the sport. Just how to stop and go lol.

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tobz
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tobz 6/15/2012 8:58pm
6/15/2012 8:58pm
petrie141 wrote:
Does it still bring the front end down in the air? Also, how fast do you have to use it? In other words, at what point...
Does it still bring the front end down in the air? Also, how fast do you have to use it? In other words, at what point does the bike stall when neglecting the clutch to throw on the back break? Since rekluse makes it, does that then mean it's auto-clutch and rear break package deal? What's the ama think about auto-clutches?
tobz wrote:
The front end drops when the rear wheels stops, why wouldn't it still drop the front end? :s
petrie141 wrote:
Not sure, just thinking out loud. I don't know much about the physics behind the sport. Just how to stop and go lol.
Lol uh, its pretty simple, the wheel makes more centrifugal weight while it's turning really fast (fill a bucket full of water and swing it around in a windmill motion, it feels heavier!). As soon as you stop/slow the rear wheel in the air, the centrifugal forces stop, making the wheel lighter.
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Braaap14 6/16/2012 2:13am
6/16/2012 2:13am Edited Date/Time 6/16/2012 2:16am
We use rear hand brakes on our street bikes for alot of stunts, it would afford a rider greater and finer control especially in turns, ruts and jump landings when a foot or leg is used for balance or body positioning.

All for it.
daveoevo
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daveoevo 6/16/2012 3:46am
6/16/2012 3:46am
I have a scenario. It's the last couple of laps on a fast bumpy track and I am hanging. My forearms look like Popeye's I dont think I would like to rely on having to grab a hand full of brake in my weakened state.
A foot brake would all ways be safer in my opinion
.
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YAKMX 6/16/2012 7:17am
6/16/2012 7:17am
I think the rear brake handlebar set up would work best in single track/tight terrain. Especially situations where your left foot might be needed to push off whatever obsticals might be there.I have been in this situation many times. But for sure it would be hard to make the mental adjustment necessary.
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carlosmacho 6/16/2012 7:49am
6/16/2012 7:49am Edited Date/Time 6/16/2012 7:53am
daveoevo wrote:
I have a scenario. It's the last couple of laps on a fast bumpy track and I am hanging. My forearms look like Popeye's I dont...
I have a scenario. It's the last couple of laps on a fast bumpy track and I am hanging. My forearms look like Popeye's I dont think I would like to rely on having to grab a hand full of brake in my weakened state.
A foot brake would all ways be safer in my opinion
.
One of the reasons I bought my recluse clutch is because in tight trails, trying to use the clutch and the front brake wears your arms out. Also on the track having to grab the clutch so I wouldn't kill the engine coming into a corner would get tiring as well. Some people say not using the clutch out of corners means you are going slow but if JS7 can do it, I go much slower so it is ok for me too.

Even on a bicycle, I preferred the bicycle that you would turn the pedals backwards to engage the brake seemed more natural to me.

I do agree the foot brake on a dirt bike makes right turns more difficult but so does pulling in the clutch or both hands off the grips to engage both brakes when they are both on the handlebars.

For me anytime my hands are griping the grips and not letting go having to reach for a brake or a clutch is a good thing for me.

In the end it is what you are most comfortable with, I think your brain can adjust to any situation, but if you start out as a child doing something, that will be the most comfortable thing for you to do.

The question is which is more optimal. That is difficult to judge
Scott167
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Scott167 6/16/2012 7:53am
6/16/2012 7:53am
one advantage of the hand brake would be less brake fade at the end of the moto. i have size 13 feet and can sometimes inadvertently ride the rear brake or even in a mud moto, theres no worry of mud sticking and holding the brake pedal down slightly.
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carlosmacho 6/16/2012 7:58am
6/16/2012 7:58am
Scott167 wrote:
one advantage of the hand brake would be less brake fade at the end of the moto. i have size 13 feet and can sometimes inadvertently...
one advantage of the hand brake would be less brake fade at the end of the moto. i have size 13 feet and can sometimes inadvertently ride the rear brake or even in a mud moto, theres no worry of mud sticking and holding the brake pedal down slightly.
I ride on the balls of my feet and my size 11 feet are no where close to the brake this help keep my foot from dangling and catching the ground or on the trails a rock or root, also prevents my foot being turned backwards in injuring my knee. I have to pick up my foot and move to the arches of my on the pegs to engage the brake, perhaps yout problem is due to technique.
aFACEdismembered 6/16/2012 8:07am
6/16/2012 8:07am
Having ridden a BMX bike for over 15 years and a motorcycle for the same amount of time this would be impossible for me. I can subconsciously jump from one to the other and not accidentally grab the wrong levers. I've never ridden a front brake on a bicycle so I would want the rear brake where the front brake is and front brake where the clutch is. It would take a loooong time for my brain to adjust to BMX style controls on a motorcycle.

Good option for some though. I know some BMX guys switch their rear brake lever to the "English" left because of getting levers stuck in their pockets doing turndowns. For them it would probably feel natural. I tried and could never get used to it.
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Knobbyjake 6/16/2012 8:13am
6/16/2012 8:13am
I've had a Rekluse and LHRB on my 450 KTM EXC for 3 years. I love it. Took almost no time to get used to and you have much more feel as Guy B said.
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FGR01 6/16/2012 8:16am
6/16/2012 8:16am
tobz wrote:
Lol uh, its pretty simple, the wheel makes more centrifugal weight while it's turning really fast (fill a bucket full of water and swing it around...
Lol uh, its pretty simple, the wheel makes more centrifugal weight while it's turning really fast (fill a bucket full of water and swing it around in a windmill motion, it feels heavier!). As soon as you stop/slow the rear wheel in the air, the centrifugal forces stop, making the wheel lighter.
Not to start a big physics discussion (can anyone say seat bounce?) but I don't think it's actually that the rear wheel gets lighter when it stops. It's that all that rotational force (centrifugal force) of the wheel is transferred into rotational force of the bike when you engage the rear brake in the air.
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yzmatt 6/16/2012 8:21am
6/16/2012 8:21am
tobz wrote:
Lol uh, its pretty simple, the wheel makes more centrifugal weight while it's turning really fast (fill a bucket full of water and swing it around...
Lol uh, its pretty simple, the wheel makes more centrifugal weight while it's turning really fast (fill a bucket full of water and swing it around in a windmill motion, it feels heavier!). As soon as you stop/slow the rear wheel in the air, the centrifugal forces stop, making the wheel lighter.
FGR01 wrote:
Not to start a big physics discussion (can anyone say seat bounce?) but I don't think it's actually that the rear wheel gets lighter when it...
Not to start a big physics discussion (can anyone say seat bounce?) but I don't think it's actually that the rear wheel gets lighter when it stops. It's that all that rotational force (centrifugal force) of the wheel is transferred into rotational force of the bike when you engage the rear brake in the air.
Exactly right. If, for example, the back wheel were spinning the other direction and you tapped the break it would want to make the back end drop. Obviously this isn't possible, but for the sake of discussion it provides a good example.
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carlosmacho 6/16/2012 8:33am
6/16/2012 8:33am Edited Date/Time 6/16/2012 8:34am
Knobbyjake wrote:
I've had a Rekluse and LHRB on my 450 KTM EXC for 3 years. I love it. Took almost no time to get used to and...
I've had a Rekluse and LHRB on my 450 KTM EXC for 3 years. I love it. Took almost no time to get used to and you have much more feel as Guy B said.
And this shows that there are advantages to either way and that people can adjust. But I think with any interface you try to make it as natural as possible. I do not know the psychology of it all but when a person is heading toward an object their tendency is not to reach forward to and grab a brake on handlebars, but to shrink back. That is why it is easy for people to step on the brake in a car. Or on a street bike many riders in emergency braking they hit the rear foot brake but do not grab the front brake because the tendency is to shrink back with the arms and push forward with the legs because that is what you would do when running and trying to stop quickly, your legs go forward and your head and arms move behind, to the point of falling down on your butt to stop.

So in the design of an interface, using natural human tendency is best especially in emergency situations where the brain will override training or your own efforts to override natural reaction and go back to a automatic defense that has been programmed into the mind before you were born.

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