multi-tiered dirt bike lines

sandtrack315
Profile picture for user sandtrack315
Posts
2551
Joined
7/19/2013
Location
Philadelphia, PA US
sandtrack315
Edited Date/Time 3/30/2020 2:37pm
Most companies employ three tier product lines, allowing for entry level, which gets new customers into the line, standard, which generates most of the revenue, and pro, which keeps the most serious customers satisfied. Apple is great at this, balancing getting new customers and nudging people to buy the most expensive option.

Why don't we do this with dirt bikes? Most people are happy with the current offerings, but it would be great if there were cheap versions for new riders, but also "works editions" for those who want a bit better performance. Imagine getting a pervious year's entry level 250F model for 4k? That would get a lot of people into riding.

What is the main thing preventing this? They don't want to cannibalize sales with an entry level model? Distribution is harder with 3 levels? Lack of innovation?
4
|
sandtrack315
Profile picture for user sandtrack315
Posts
2551
Joined
7/19/2013
Location
Philadelphia, PA US
sandtrack315 3/30/2020 5:51am
3/30/2020 5:51am
zippytech wrote:
They already have this. Xr's TTR's
That's more akin to saying Ford should sell one F150 because they also sell other cars. They sell lots of different cars, and a bunch of different versions of the F150.

Even if they have one model, seems odd they don't do anything to up-sell you (i.e., works editions), or to entice entry level customers with a bare bones bike. From cars to bicycles to phones to laptops, every product works like this.
1
newmann
Profile picture for user newmann
Posts
24444
Joined
4/1/2008
Location
US
newmann 3/30/2020 6:05am
3/30/2020 6:05am
Yamaha used to do this back in the early to mid 70's with the MX and YZ lines. Two motocross specific lines of bikes, not some play bike offerings as are available today.

KTM could pull this off today and kill it with sales. A 2007 styled chassis with no linkage and an air cooled 2 stroke that could use a 125-200cc top, finished out with current plastics. Doesn't need the most modern forks and doesn't need top end oversized brakes. Hubs could be left with the cast finish instead of machined. They are already building stuff in India so it could be an inexpensive offering.

And anyone who thinks it couldn't be a pretty fast little bike is just plain stupid.























6
kb228
Profile picture for user kb228
Posts
6161
Joined
1/31/2018
Location
Mansfield, OH US
kb228 3/30/2020 6:59am
3/30/2020 6:59am
If i were to guess.. due to the nature of guys who ride dirtbikes, it doesnt make sense to make tiers. Most would buy the most basic cheap version because theyre going to put on all the parts they like on it anyway.
1
1

The Shop

See All »
GCBC
Profile picture for user GCBC
Posts
451
Joined
11/19/2017
Location
Pittsburgh, PA US
GCBC 3/30/2020 7:02am
3/30/2020 7:02am
Americans would buy a 15k msrp dirt bike with full system, suspension, better bars pegs wheels etc for sure. as long as they could put it on their Kawasaki card they'd sell everyone theyd import.

I don't buy the ktm factory editions because they aren't any different. just a slip on, triple clamps skidplate and a sprocket, how's that a factory edition? charge an extra 4k and put some bits on it.
3
1
bvm111
Profile picture for user bvm111
Posts
9329
Joined
7/1/2008
Location
Las Vegas, NV US
bvm111 3/30/2020 8:17am
3/30/2020 8:17am
I love these threads...I am pretty sure the manufacturers have a market development department or something similar that studies sales and marketing and what their customers want and how to gain more market share. I would also be certain that every manufacturer has discussed entry level motorcycles and 350s and works additions and every other idea you guys come up with that are certain to sell a ton of motorcycles and save the sport!
1
1
sandtrack315
Profile picture for user sandtrack315
Posts
2551
Joined
7/19/2013
Location
Philadelphia, PA US
sandtrack315 3/30/2020 9:10am
3/30/2020 9:10am
bvm111 wrote:
I love these threads...I am pretty sure the manufacturers have a market development department or something similar that studies sales and marketing and what their customers...
I love these threads...I am pretty sure the manufacturers have a market development department or something similar that studies sales and marketing and what their customers want and how to gain more market share. I would also be certain that every manufacturer has discussed entry level motorcycles and 350s and works additions and every other idea you guys come up with that are certain to sell a ton of motorcycles and save the sport!
Right, that's why I asked why dirt bikes are different than every other product, where you almost always see tiers.
newmann
Profile picture for user newmann
Posts
24444
Joined
4/1/2008
Location
US
newmann 3/30/2020 9:28am
3/30/2020 9:28am
bvm111 wrote:
I love these threads...I am pretty sure the manufacturers have a market development department or something similar that studies sales and marketing and what their customers...
I love these threads...I am pretty sure the manufacturers have a market development department or something similar that studies sales and marketing and what their customers want and how to gain more market share. I would also be certain that every manufacturer has discussed entry level motorcycles and 350s and works additions and every other idea you guys come up with that are certain to sell a ton of motorcycles and save the sport!
Yeah, and KTM still sucks. They'll never resurrect that brand. Laughing

The mfgs. only offering a top fuel funny car version of a motocross bike isn't doing the entry level into the sport any favors.
zehn
Profile picture for user zehn
Posts
7263
Joined
1/15/2013
Location
Anchorage, AK US
zehn 3/30/2020 9:30am
3/30/2020 9:30am
they barely sell enough bikes as it it, you want them to further segment their product lines Blink
1
sandtrack315
Profile picture for user sandtrack315
Posts
2551
Joined
7/19/2013
Location
Philadelphia, PA US
sandtrack315 3/30/2020 9:33am
3/30/2020 9:33am
zehn wrote:
they barely sell enough bikes as it it, you want them to further segment their product lines Blink
Isn't that marketing 101?
1
backinthesaddleagain 3/30/2020 9:40am
3/30/2020 9:40am
A friend with a YZ has a girlfriend who got a KLX140, the one with the full size wheels. I'll tell you on a little grass track its a blast. I wouldn't want to put it on big jumps or whoops but the fun per $ she has on it can't be beat.
4
BroFoSho
Profile picture for user BroFoSho
Posts
742
Joined
9/26/2013
Location
Tucson, AZ US
BroFoSho 3/30/2020 10:10am
3/30/2020 10:10am
What would you change to a current dirtbike to make three tiers? That's what I'm struggling with.

With mountain bikes, the frames are identical across lines. Even AL vs carbon has the same geometry, just different material. The different tiers come in with bolt-on components. The cheapest model will be the same frame with cheaper suspension, brakes, and drivetrain. While the highest cost will have Fox/Sram's top of the line products.

KYB/Showa doesn't make different "levels" of suspension. I guess a manufacturer could go cheaper on brakes? I don't see what they could do to the motor other than what Honda & KTM already does with their works edition bikes.

The only way I could see it would be if a manufacturer partnered heavily with an aftermarket company to provide different builds for bikes. An Example..
Tier I: Stock Kawi bike
Tier II: Kawi bike with some mild motor and suspension work done by PC
Tier III: Full blown PC race bike

2
Hoks
Profile picture for user Hoks
Posts
182
Joined
5/5/2019
Location
Moncks Corner, SC US
Hoks 3/30/2020 10:31am
3/30/2020 10:31am
Trail models/regular production moto bikes/works edition or factory editions.

Boom.
newmann
Profile picture for user newmann
Posts
24444
Joined
4/1/2008
Location
US
newmann 3/30/2020 10:45am
3/30/2020 10:45am
zehn wrote:
they barely sell enough bikes as it it, you want them to further segment their product lines Blink
At 10 grand a pop is there any wonder as to why they don't sell many? A 4 grand motocross bike is a no brainer as far as I'm concerned.

And anyone who thinks it isn't possible and couldn't get around a track in good order is just plain stupid. I think I may have mentioned that earlier...

Air cooled and lower level suspension components work just fine.

2
GCBC
Profile picture for user GCBC
Posts
451
Joined
11/19/2017
Location
Pittsburgh, PA US
GCBC 3/30/2020 10:54am
3/30/2020 10:54am Edited Date/Time 3/30/2020 10:58am
I always said bring back air cooled's. since "they" hate 2 strokes it would be the best option.
take the same current yr mx bike so you don't have any development costs making and designing a new bike and just slap in a 350cc air-cooled in the roller and drop the price 1k under the 250f. would be 10lbs lighter with no cooling system. be tons of fun for noobs, woods riders, and as a play bike for racers and serious riders. cost nothing to maintain, easy to self service and give everyone an option.

who would say no to something like a 2021 crf350r making 40hp with tons of grunt, 50+hr top end intervals with hard use or 150hrs trail riding, 220lbs, kickstart only and reliable. and all for 7k msrp. would be feasible to build it, sell it in the thousands per yr model and get new people into riding
BroFoSho
Profile picture for user BroFoSho
Posts
742
Joined
9/26/2013
Location
Tucson, AZ US
BroFoSho 3/30/2020 12:39pm
3/30/2020 12:39pm
GCBC wrote:
I always said bring back air cooled's. since "they" hate 2 strokes it would be the best option. take the same current yr mx bike so...
I always said bring back air cooled's. since "they" hate 2 strokes it would be the best option.
take the same current yr mx bike so you don't have any development costs making and designing a new bike and just slap in a 350cc air-cooled in the roller and drop the price 1k under the 250f. would be 10lbs lighter with no cooling system. be tons of fun for noobs, woods riders, and as a play bike for racers and serious riders. cost nothing to maintain, easy to self service and give everyone an option.

who would say no to something like a 2021 crf350r making 40hp with tons of grunt, 50+hr top end intervals with hard use or 150hrs trail riding, 220lbs, kickstart only and reliable. and all for 7k msrp. would be feasible to build it, sell it in the thousands per yr model and get new people into riding
What kind of 350cc air-cooled motor are you talking about?

A CRF230 is about as fast as a KTM85. And with all the cooling fins and heavy ass metal valvetrain... the engine weighs more than a 450 motor. And do you still mate it to a close-ratio 5-speed gearbox? Or to a wide-ratio gearbox?

Frame cradle and engine mounts would need to be redesigned to accommodate the bigger engine. The entire intake system would need to be redesigned. The list goes on...
sandtrack315
Profile picture for user sandtrack315
Posts
2551
Joined
7/19/2013
Location
Philadelphia, PA US
sandtrack315 3/30/2020 1:12pm
3/30/2020 1:12pm
BroFoSho wrote:
What would you change to a current dirtbike to make three tiers? That's what I'm struggling with. With mountain bikes, the frames are identical across lines...
What would you change to a current dirtbike to make three tiers? That's what I'm struggling with.

With mountain bikes, the frames are identical across lines. Even AL vs carbon has the same geometry, just different material. The different tiers come in with bolt-on components. The cheapest model will be the same frame with cheaper suspension, brakes, and drivetrain. While the highest cost will have Fox/Sram's top of the line products.

KYB/Showa doesn't make different "levels" of suspension. I guess a manufacturer could go cheaper on brakes? I don't see what they could do to the motor other than what Honda & KTM already does with their works edition bikes.

The only way I could see it would be if a manufacturer partnered heavily with an aftermarket company to provide different builds for bikes. An Example..
Tier I: Stock Kawi bike
Tier II: Kawi bike with some mild motor and suspension work done by PC
Tier III: Full blown PC race bike

Yes, they would have to work with aftermarket companies.

Tier I: Stock, cheaper materials for stuff like wheels and bars, kickstarter, cheaper stock tires 5999 MSRP (250F)
Tier II: What we have today, 7999 MSRP (250F)
Tier III: Works Edition, 9999 MSRP (250F)
Squirrelings 3/30/2020 2:33pm
3/30/2020 2:33pm
zippytech wrote:
They already have this. Xr's TTR's
sandtrack315 wrote:
That's more akin to saying Ford should sell one F150 because they also sell other cars. They sell lots of different cars, and a bunch of...
That's more akin to saying Ford should sell one F150 because they also sell other cars. They sell lots of different cars, and a bunch of different versions of the F150.

Even if they have one model, seems odd they don't do anything to up-sell you (i.e., works editions), or to entice entry level customers with a bare bones bike. From cars to bicycles to phones to laptops, every product works like this.
They sell millions of lap tops and bicycles sell 10 fold what motocross bikes do.
1

Pit Row

See All »
yz133rider
Profile picture for user yz133rider
Posts
4471
Joined
8/1/2013
Location
Avondale, PA US
yz133rider 3/30/2020 2:37pm
3/30/2020 2:37pm
zippytech wrote:
They already have this. Xr's TTR's
sandtrack315 wrote:
That's more akin to saying Ford should sell one F150 because they also sell other cars. They sell lots of different cars, and a bunch of...
That's more akin to saying Ford should sell one F150 because they also sell other cars. They sell lots of different cars, and a bunch of different versions of the F150.

Even if they have one model, seems odd they don't do anything to up-sell you (i.e., works editions), or to entice entry level customers with a bare bones bike. From cars to bicycles to phones to laptops, every product works like this.
Squirrelings wrote:
They sell millions of lap tops and bicycles sell 10 fold what motocross bikes do.
This whole discussion is to try to get more sales lol.
Squirrelings 3/30/2020 2:47pm
3/30/2020 2:47pm
yz133rider wrote:
This whole discussion is to try to get more sales lol.
I don’t see that as the answer. There is a bike out there for everyone. Creating tiers is not going to increase bike sales and I’m willing to bet other than the CRF450RWE which is a very limited run, the Japanese want absolutely nothing to do with that idea.
1

Post a reply to: multi-tiered dirt bike lines