might as well say it

hartebreak
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hartebreak
Edited Date/Time 1/23/2012 9:48pm
It has to be said, so I might as well say it.



The 350's looked horrible out there. I am interested to see what Roger comes up with. Andrew was 3rd from last heading into the 1st turn. Mikey looked about 4-6th into the turn but dropped anchor soon after. Not the showing I was hoping for all the way around for KTM today. I hope KR194 isnt banged up from that crash.
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FlaNard
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FlaNard 1/8/2011 11:06pm
1/8/2011 11:06pm
If you arent AC, God help you on the pumpkin. Look at the scoreboard.
Rewindcaz
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Rewindcaz 1/8/2011 11:12pm
1/8/2011 11:12pm
FlaNard wrote:
If you arent AC, God help you on the pumpkin. Look at the scoreboard.
correction: If you aren't racing GP's, God help your "so called 350".

FlaNard
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FlaNard 1/8/2011 11:20pm
1/8/2011 11:20pm Edited Date/Time 1/8/2011 11:21pm
FlaNard wrote:
If you arent AC, God help you on the pumpkin. Look at the scoreboard.
Rewindcaz wrote:
correction: If you aren't racing GP's, God help your "so called 350".

Word. I meant Supercross, but word none the less.
Dropbear
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Dropbear 1/8/2011 11:37pm
1/8/2011 11:37pm
I must be thick. I cant see why you would want less power at the top level.

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jmar
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jmar 1/8/2011 11:48pm
1/8/2011 11:48pm
Short didn't have a good night. No need to throw the 350 under the bus.

There is no reason that the 350 shouldn't be fine in supercross.
munsch121
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munsch121 1/8/2011 11:50pm
1/8/2011 11:50pm
I can understand why the common man local rider would like to have a 350.......At the top level, where everyone can strap on that horsepower......they are just making that bike look like a dud.....They have got 2 of the best trigger fingers in the business riding those 350s and don't look like they could holeshot a supermini race.
redrider400
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redrider400 1/8/2011 11:55pm
1/8/2011 11:55pm
munsch121 wrote:
I can understand why the common man local rider would like to have a 350.......At the top level, where everyone can strap on that horsepower......they are...
I can understand why the common man local rider would like to have a 350.......At the top level, where everyone can strap on that horsepower......they are just making that bike look like a dud.....They have got 2 of the best trigger fingers in the business riding those 350s and don't look like they could holeshot a supermini race.
You hit the nail on the head dude. Most consumers would love that as would myself. But at that level, I think that they can manage the power of the 450's. I have a feeling that we will be hearing more about the 350's problems though out this year.
22Ryann
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22Ryann 1/9/2011 1:28am
1/9/2011 1:28am
what about all the 450's that came in behind the 350? does that make them buckets of shit too?..

I bet you if james was on it he'd find a way to win on it.
bullpen58
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bullpen58 1/9/2011 4:55am
1/9/2011 4:55am
If the rules allowed them to do it (again) and KTM had Short and Alessi on 550s instead of 350s, less people on here would be blaming the bike.

I am pretty sure that Stewart would still be one of the fastest guys even if he were forced to race a 250F.
R-acer
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R-acer 1/9/2011 5:01am
1/9/2011 5:01am
Kawasaki says they switched to FMF because they found a little more power.
Last year the Honda riders were excited because they found more power that they felt they needed.
And for some reason, KTM feels that they should cut their power back by 25% Whistling
You can actually see Short struggling with the bike to make some of the jumps cleanly.
I actually feel bad for alessi and short. It's showing up with a Knife to a gun fight.
mx317
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mx317 1/9/2011 5:26am
1/9/2011 5:26am
The 350 concept would work if it was carried out like most thought with 250F weight and handling with 100cc more. We have all compared lap times with the 250Fs and know they are close, but something got lost along the way. Then again, it may just be the riders.
T-Fish
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T-Fish 1/9/2011 6:13am
1/9/2011 6:13am
Look at the list of guys that finished ahead of Short and tell me it's a sure thing that he'd have finished ahead of all of them if he were on a 450.
Mstock
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Mstock 1/9/2011 6:17am
1/9/2011 6:17am
With the depth of the field this year Short would have finished in the same spot even if he was on the CRF450.
Sunhouse
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Sunhouse 1/9/2011 6:20am
1/9/2011 6:20am
If the 350 had 10-15 years of development behind it like the 250 and 450, maybe they would be better. I´ll give it time, I think KTM is on to something. All they need is a little competition in the 350 class to speed up development and lower the weight
WhKnuckle
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WhKnuckle 1/9/2011 6:21am
1/9/2011 6:21am
I really think the 350 could have a big advantage, but only if it's much lighter and smaller than the 450s. They went the wrong direction when they built it - they put a small engine in a big chassis, rather than a big engine in a 250F chassis.

But I still think it'd be an awesome amateur bike, and if I was looking for a four stroke, I'd be real tempted to buy one.
jndmx
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jndmx 1/9/2011 6:37am
1/9/2011 6:37am
WhKnuckle wrote:
I really think the 350 could have a big advantage, but only if it's much lighter and smaller than the 450s. They went the wrong direction...
I really think the 350 could have a big advantage, but only if it's much lighter and smaller than the 450s. They went the wrong direction when they built it - they put a small engine in a big chassis, rather than a big engine in a 250F chassis.

But I still think it'd be an awesome amateur bike, and if I was looking for a four stroke, I'd be real tempted to buy one.
Think you hit the nail on the head there.

Talking to a guy that actually has one and he said it is a great bike on the local level but he wouldn't want to give up all that power to a gate full of pros.
jamma10
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jamma10 1/9/2011 6:37am
1/9/2011 6:37am Edited Date/Time 1/9/2011 6:40am
I cant believe this shit gets brought up time and time again.



Have people really not got anything better to do than constantly try to discredit an innovative type of motorcycle? Apart from smugly trying to satisfy your own theory, who does it actually benefit?



As 22Ryan says, stick Stewart (or any one of the top 3/4 on that bike for that matter) and they would be winning races. Short and Alessi know what the score is, let them make their own decisions, if the 350's was really as whack as some people seem intent of suggesting, they wouldn't be riding them would they? Or is this just one big propaganda conspiracy to 'dupe' us all into purchasing a bike that runs around 10th spot?
WhKnuckle
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WhKnuckle 1/9/2011 6:44am
1/9/2011 6:44am
I didn't imply it was whack, I'm just saying it's a new concept and maybe it's great for some things and not as good for others.

I remember in around '79 or so, I was on a Husky 390CR (which I still think is the most beautiful dirt bike ever buit), and I got on a Maico 490 Mega2. The Maico was more powerful and probably better, but I liked the Husky better. It hooked up better, wasn't quite so violent and was just a lot more fun to ride to me. But if I'd been a pro, I'd have been on the Maico for sure.

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Motocross83 1/9/2011 6:45am
1/9/2011 6:45am
mx317 wrote:
The 350 concept would work if it was carried out like most thought with 250F weight and handling with 100cc more. We have all compared lap...
The 350 concept would work if it was carried out like most thought with 250F weight and handling with 100cc more. We have all compared lap times with the 250Fs and know they are close, but something got lost along the way. Then again, it may just be the riders.
Exactly.

The whole point of doing the 350 project was surely to make a mini 450 that's ok, down on power, but with all the perks and bonuses of being a much lighter bike, closer to a 250f. Instead it's barely lighter than the 450 yet is down a 100cc. I'm not saying it can't win but you would've thought it would do quite well on last nights track which looked fairly tight and a little abrupt in some areas. Then again maybe that's what worked against it. All I know is - when I watch those guy's jump through those timing sections, I'd want as much power as bleeding possible.

KTM should ditch the electric start on the 350. They'd loose a little weight right there. Though having said that I think MXA said it'd be negligible. I don't know it's hard to tell at this point. Maybe it was just a bad ride for Andrew. We all have them.
Racer92
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Racer92 1/9/2011 6:48am
1/9/2011 6:48am
WhKnuckle wrote:
I really think the 350 could have a big advantage, but only if it's much lighter and smaller than the 450s. They went the wrong direction...
I really think the 350 could have a big advantage, but only if it's much lighter and smaller than the 450s. They went the wrong direction when they built it - they put a small engine in a big chassis, rather than a big engine in a 250F chassis.

But I still think it'd be an awesome amateur bike, and if I was looking for a four stroke, I'd be real tempted to buy one.
Ditto that, Id love to test ride a 350 in a 250F chassis.
WhKnuckle
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WhKnuckle 1/9/2011 6:53am
1/9/2011 6:53am
mx317 wrote:
The 350 concept would work if it was carried out like most thought with 250F weight and handling with 100cc more. We have all compared lap...
The 350 concept would work if it was carried out like most thought with 250F weight and handling with 100cc more. We have all compared lap times with the 250Fs and know they are close, but something got lost along the way. Then again, it may just be the riders.
Motocross83 wrote:
Exactly. The whole point of doing the 350 project was surely to make a mini 450 that's ok, down on power, but with all the perks...
Exactly.

The whole point of doing the 350 project was surely to make a mini 450 that's ok, down on power, but with all the perks and bonuses of being a much lighter bike, closer to a 250f. Instead it's barely lighter than the 450 yet is down a 100cc. I'm not saying it can't win but you would've thought it would do quite well on last nights track which looked fairly tight and a little abrupt in some areas. Then again maybe that's what worked against it. All I know is - when I watch those guy's jump through those timing sections, I'd want as much power as bleeding possible.

KTM should ditch the electric start on the 350. They'd loose a little weight right there. Though having said that I think MXA said it'd be negligible. I don't know it's hard to tell at this point. Maybe it was just a bad ride for Andrew. We all have them.
I think MXA said ditching the Estart saved weight, but at the time they were comparing the 350 to the 450, and if you ditch the Estart on the 450 you save the same amount of weight, making them comparable again. But I think the weight savings is about 6 pounds or so, which seems worth doing if the bike starts easy enough with the kick starter.
Motocross83 1/9/2011 6:59am
1/9/2011 6:59am
mx317 wrote:
The 350 concept would work if it was carried out like most thought with 250F weight and handling with 100cc more. We have all compared lap...
The 350 concept would work if it was carried out like most thought with 250F weight and handling with 100cc more. We have all compared lap times with the 250Fs and know they are close, but something got lost along the way. Then again, it may just be the riders.
Motocross83 wrote:
Exactly. The whole point of doing the 350 project was surely to make a mini 450 that's ok, down on power, but with all the perks...
Exactly.

The whole point of doing the 350 project was surely to make a mini 450 that's ok, down on power, but with all the perks and bonuses of being a much lighter bike, closer to a 250f. Instead it's barely lighter than the 450 yet is down a 100cc. I'm not saying it can't win but you would've thought it would do quite well on last nights track which looked fairly tight and a little abrupt in some areas. Then again maybe that's what worked against it. All I know is - when I watch those guy's jump through those timing sections, I'd want as much power as bleeding possible.

KTM should ditch the electric start on the 350. They'd loose a little weight right there. Though having said that I think MXA said it'd be negligible. I don't know it's hard to tell at this point. Maybe it was just a bad ride for Andrew. We all have them.
WhKnuckle wrote:
I think MXA said ditching the Estart saved weight, but at the time they were comparing the 350 to the 450, and if you ditch the...
I think MXA said ditching the Estart saved weight, but at the time they were comparing the 350 to the 450, and if you ditch the Estart on the 450 you save the same amount of weight, making them comparable again. But I think the weight savings is about 6 pounds or so, which seems worth doing if the bike starts easy enough with the kick starter.
Very true.

6Ibs is what, almost half a stone. Well worth the trade off imo.
Highsider
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Highsider 1/9/2011 7:11am
1/9/2011 7:11am Edited Date/Time 1/9/2011 7:11am
At the local-level, I want maximum power on my 450 race bike.

At my age, the start is the most fun, when I am racing the 30+ & 40+ class.
Madmax31
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Madmax31 1/9/2011 7:56am
1/9/2011 7:56am
Everyone is nuts. Alessi hasn't been riding well for well over a year. Short was running in top 3 because, RV, Reed, Grant, Milsaps, Stewart were out. Throw in Canard and people like Stroupe that beat him just starting on 450's last year. He is where he should be about 7-10. I'm not bagging on Short. I like the guy a lot but people are like God the KTM sucks because Short isn't 3rd.

Put Stewart, Dungey or RV on the same bike and last nights outcome would've been no different.
RaceFace
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RaceFace 1/9/2011 8:20am
1/9/2011 8:20am
munsch121 wrote:
I can understand why the common man local rider would like to have a 350.......At the top level, where everyone can strap on that horsepower......they are...
I can understand why the common man local rider would like to have a 350.......At the top level, where everyone can strap on that horsepower......they are just making that bike look like a dud.....They have got 2 of the best trigger fingers in the business riding those 350s and don't look like they could holeshot a supermini race.
Exactly what almost every 350 detractor has been saying. The bike is great for mortals, but in the Pros? People will continue to blame the riders, not the bike, but the point is the 350 is supposed to be an ADVANTAGE! It is supposed to make Short and Alessi get BETTER results than they would on a 450. Even as people here are now blaming Short, or saying he had a bad night? Short's FAST lap was 1:01 something....his fastest! That's one bad night! That is 3 seconds off of the lead pack. I feel so bad for Shorty...he must be home right now saying "what did I get myself into here?".

Could Stewart make the bike look good? Yeah, but he wouldn't win on it. NO ONE would win on it in the AMA Pros. SInce the 350 needs Cairoli to go fast, I hope he comes to do a few National so we can finally end this ridiculous debate that less HP is better in the AMA Pros.
jleews6
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jleews6 1/9/2011 8:29am
1/9/2011 8:29am
Dropbear wrote:
I must be thick. I cant see why you would want less power at the top level.
Well DUH!!!!!!!!!!!

Its that 3 pounds that you save. come on get with it.


HAHAHAHA
RaceFace
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RaceFace 1/9/2011 8:29am
1/9/2011 8:29am
Madmax31 wrote:
Everyone is nuts. Alessi hasn't been riding well for well over a year. Short was running in top 3 because, RV, Reed, Grant, Milsaps, Stewart were...
Everyone is nuts. Alessi hasn't been riding well for well over a year. Short was running in top 3 because, RV, Reed, Grant, Milsaps, Stewart were out. Throw in Canard and people like Stroupe that beat him just starting on 450's last year. He is where he should be about 7-10. I'm not bagging on Short. I like the guy a lot but people are like God the KTM sucks because Short isn't 3rd.

Put Stewart, Dungey or RV on the same bike and last nights outcome would've been no different.
Short got injured last year in SX but was getting 4ths and 5ths when he raced. So if you want to say he belongs around 7th-10th that is fair. Problem is he wasn't even a close 10th. His starts SUCKED. He was 7th in his heat!!! The main argument against the 350 is starts. If you just take it from the start viewpoint, it is a severe disadvantage. I disagree completely about the results being the same if any of the top 3 were on a 350 last night. You'll never find that out because no one with the options the top guys have will ever ride the 350 unless it is for twice the money.
yamazuki
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yamazuki 1/9/2011 8:47am
1/9/2011 8:47am Edited Date/Time 1/9/2011 8:56am
I feel for Short. This bike whether underpowered or not could be career ending. We know there is controversy about it, many people thinks it is a dog power wise (it may be a perception or maybe true), then Short goes from mr holeshot to mr holeshotnot as soon as he switches. His ability to get good results depend on him getting holeshots which he did on the Honda (unlike some riders like Stewart or Dungee that can take a bad start and muscle it into a decent finish. Short is not the the fastest rider out there but he is pretty fast, consistant, and when he gets a holeshot he gets a decent finish even though it may not be first. I fear he will be relegated to midpack or worse for finishes because he cannot do well on the bike. Once he gets desperate he may decide to switch to the 450 but KTM probably will not allow that because it will make the bike look like a fail which it is for power on holeshots. Drag racing is about power, it is also about weight, but the 350 is also as heavy as a 450, no advantage there, it has less power than a 450, no advantage there, at best it gives no rider an advantage at holeshots which expecially at tight supercross hard passing tracks is paramount unless you are Stewart (even at 2011 A1 he could do no better than 3rd). Stewart could race this bike and he may be able to get a decent holeshot but between a bike gives you an advantage at the wholeshot and one that does not, which one would you want to be on? At worse, the KTM is a pig as far as weight and a dog as far as power. Take your pic but as far as holeshots which is a huge part of the race, the KTM is a let down. I would not buy one and being underpowered and overweight makes me not want one. The Yamaha 450 is way over weight and even though everyone raves about them physics tells me to wait until the yamaha is put on a diet and the KTM goes on a huge diet and or a 100cc steroid boost. Sorry KTM, I am just not buying it (the hype or the bike)

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