just a whiny topic about 4 strokes and modern racing....

tl;dr

zehn wrote:

tl;dr

here: 1. Bikes are too fast.
2. Tracks suck.

:-)

ttugrad1793 wrote:

Watching RaceDay Live.

I'm sure that this has been said a million times over, but the big beef I see with modern SX racing is 2 things:

1. It absolutely blows to watch the riders figure out the fastest line, and then have them ALL capable of doing it! The rhythm section before the finish is a great example: all day the riders were doubling their way through it, Tomac busts out a 3/3/3 combo and then like magic, they are all capable of it.It's not because of their insane skill level (though it certainly takes skill)...it's because they're on a land rocket that can propel them that far. Also, to see 250s doing what the 450s guys are doing is just flat out lunacy. It's not two different classes anymore...it's just a "training class" and a "premier class". In the old days, 125s would struggle to even clear the triples. What we all reminisce about was watching Carmichael or Stewart or Reed whip out some crazy line through a section that nobody else was doing...it seems like (for the most part) those days are over as the top 10 guys are all running the same combos, which is why we get the "lazy train" races that happen frequently. There's nothing to separate the great from the good.

2. The tracks are cookie cutter. I'm not sure when it happened, but when us old timers pine about the lost days of great SX racing, it's because the tracks were kind of a mess. Rhythm sections weren't perfectly separated. Whoops differed week to week. Step on/offs were a crapshoot. Hell, even the triples were built based on random tractor operator's assessment. Now they are all equidistant week to week, and replicated at practice tracks which removes the whole element of "surprise" for the riders to figure out a section. Watch some old races and you'll see sketchy landings, weird distances between jumps, and whoops that would rattle your teeth. The current tracks are simply video game pieces that they place down week over week.

ok, bitching done. Thanks for letting me get that off my chest as I know that my opinion is of great value to all of you. Here's to some hopefully great racing tonight. :-)

X2 Well said

a few years ago the MEC had a section of just 9 (or so) random jumps. The distance between them was pretty tight (abnormal) and it absolutely gave the riders fits. I remember Barcia casing it lap after lap. It took precision and GUTS to take the "fast line".

I have often thought about that. Instead of the same ol' rhythm sections, what if we just had 12 jumps in a row. The fast guys would bust out a massive line through them and the slower guys would not. And for goodness sake, why can we not get a track with truly gnarly ugly whoops? I know that they get chewed down throughout the night, but c'mon - make those suckers hip high with awful valleys between and I guarantee you that we'll see some separation from rider to rider! (and yes I know there's an injury risk, but with whoops the risk is lower than the triples)

Are the 250's doing the 3/3/3?

Are more than the top few guys quading into the corner?

I like the fact that riders can replicate the obstacles they see on the track. We have enough injured riders as it is to be intentionally throwing stuff at them that they can't replicate/practice on their own, relatively safer, free time.

Total agreement from me TS.

Every track is the exact same. Same length triples, whoop spacing etc.

How many premiere guys did that wall jump at Daytona a few years back?

Fourth_Floor wrote:

How many premiere guys did that wall jump at Daytona a few years back?

Lol one jump a few years back

Supercross already injures enough riders as it is. Throw in obstacles that they are not used to doing and the carnage would increase. I feel the 450's are too much for indoors, would be cool to have a 125 regional class and 250F/250T premier class

Fourth_Floor wrote:

How many premiere guys did that wall jump at Daytona a few years back?

yz133rider wrote:

Lol one jump a few years back

thank you. Point proven. Throw in a random obstacle, and these guys attack it in different ways. As it sits today, it's a video game track creation process with identical obstacles over and over and over again. I miss 2 strokes like many of you, but I think that much of the good racing was comprised of (besides the bikes) differing obstacles week over week that required them to discern and figure out very quickly. The great ones did, the good ones not so much. This is also why we had more "mistakes" in the racing, which ultimately led to the better racing we all want.

chump6784 wrote:

Supercross already injures enough riders as it is. Throw in obstacles that they are not used to doing and the carnage would increase. I feel the 450's are too much for indoors, would be cool to have a 125 regional class and 250F/250T premier class

dont disagree about 450s being "too much". However, unless we change the bikes/classes (we can't), we should be really drilling down on the track itself in an attempt to 1. slow down the racing and 2. provide challenges that award the exceptional.

I disagree. I think we're at a point right now that all the current guys are pretty evenly matched. Hill seems very JS7-esque on a 450 doing that quad section a few weeks back so I'm betting once we see him full time a 450 we will be seeing some crazy shit being strung together that not a lot of guys are going to pull the trigger on.

Fourth_Floor wrote:

I disagree. I think we're at a point right now that all the current guys are pretty evenly matched. Hill seems very JS7-esque on a 450 doing that quad section a few weeks back so I'm betting once we see him full time a 450 we will be seeing some crazy shit being strung together that not a lot of guys are going to pull the trigger on.

Perhaps. In the meantime, you have the top 10 guys doing the exact same combo without any variation because honestly, there is no other "faster" alternative.

It's back to track design - the jumps/rhythms are spaced so that riders have limited options and yes, there's the FASTEST line vs the Safer line....but the top 10 guys will all do the same line.

zehn wrote:

tl;dr

ttugrad1793 wrote:

here: 1. Bikes are too fast.
2. Tracks suck.

:-)

1. Bikes the same
2. Tracks the same

Devices like LitPro aren't really helping. You csn literally see the fastest way around the track.

and also 6 land mines placed through out the track

I know they would never try this, but it would be interesting to see.
Build an old school track. Maybe a few big triples for the crowd, with more small jumps and longer whoop sections.
More time on the ground.

I just wonder if the racing would be better?

Racing is made interesting by variables, learning is about reducing those variables. That applies to both the machines and the riders. With the data and video analysis they already know exactly which is the fastest way around the track before the night show even begins.

rongi#401 wrote:

and also 6 land mines placed through out the track

yeah, I figured this would get thrown in. "Let's have them juggle flaming batons while jumping through a hoop on fire."

That's irrelevant and not what I'm saying at all.
I'm actually saying the opposite: simplify the tracks but make them unique. The cookie cutter track creation is destroying the racing and obstacles should be created week over week that the riders are NOT prepared for. It doesn't mean they have to be dangerous...just unique. And the whoops last night completely proved my point when guys were bunny hopping through them as they essentially became rollers. Gnarly ugly whoops would provide for better racing without increasing the injury risk too much. Every week we see whoops and every week we see them beat down to becoming a non-issue for most of the riders. That's but one example. That rhythm section before the finish was another. Your top 10 guys are all hitting the same big line.

The only thing I'll grant you about last night is that somehow, SOMEWHERE, Tomac found lines and speed to crush the competition, and that is commendable. However, it was not due to a new rhythm line or his insane whoop speed. It was all other parts of the track (turns, momentum) and it made for a snooze fest. I suppose it would just be my pipe dream to have a track that is less "flow" based and geared more toward riders finding spots to increase their gaps because other riders are not doing the same lines.

Just my .02

Indy mxer wrote:

I know they would never try this, but it would be interesting to see.
Build an old school track. Maybe a few big triples for the crowd, with more small jumps and longer whoop sections.
More time on the ground.

I just wonder if the racing would be better?

Elevated corners.
LOOOOOONG whoop sections.
Step on/offs that are sketchy.
simple, small doubles that go into technical turning sections.

These are the things that would assist with slowing down the racing and require precision and skill, and also allow the elite riders to bust out HUGE lines that others are not doing.

As I see it, they all know the fastest way around the track due to LitPro and other technologies...so there has to be a way to allow the fastest riders to utilize those lines that prove impossible for others.

I don't know. I just see a track that is reshuffled week over week and is essentially the same in terms of jump distances and jump trajectory. Let's mix it up and incorporate obstacles that take the riders all night to figure out....until the one badass finds some insane line that nobody even dreamed of (ala Stewart/Carmichael) that separates them from the pack.