can a kid win on 65 &85 then move up and ride 250c

hillbilly
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hillbilly
Edited Date/Time 6/12/2014 9:40pm
Go to LL,s in 250c after yrs on 65 then 85 winning in both classes occasionally?

I thought C was for beginners.
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mmitoptech
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mmitoptech 6/11/2014 7:16pm
6/11/2014 7:16pm
I wouldnt see why not. He is a beginner on a 250.
newmann
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newmann 6/11/2014 7:23pm
6/11/2014 7:23pm
C class / Beginner at a national? You can't make this shit up. Printin' money baby, printin' money. Laughing

crusher773
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crusher773 6/11/2014 7:23pm
6/11/2014 7:23pm
I wouldn't think so but they never enforce that rule. C is supposed to be for guys that have less than a year experience but there are a lot of people that try for that class every single year.
Alvear999
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Alvear999 6/11/2014 7:27pm
6/11/2014 7:27pm Edited Date/Time 6/11/2014 7:28pm
If I'm not mistaking, you cannot compete at LL in 250c/450c if you have been there previously in any other class. This includes little bikes.

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Dx3moto
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Dx3moto 6/11/2014 7:32pm
6/11/2014 7:32pm
Alvear999 wrote:
If I'm not mistaking, you cannot compete at LL in 250c/450c if you have been there previously in any other class. This includes little bikes.
Even if you raced pee wee's at LL, didn't race until you were about 14 and returned on a 250 in C class, you'd have to ride B?
Dx3moto
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Dx3moto 6/11/2014 7:33pm
6/11/2014 7:33pm
That can't be true though, thinking back, I remember a few friends who raced 85 classes and went on to win the C class, unless they've recently changed the rules. This was back around 2008/2009.
Alvear999
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Alvear999 6/11/2014 7:41pm
6/11/2014 7:41pm Edited Date/Time 6/11/2014 7:42pm
Alvear999 wrote:
If I'm not mistaking, you cannot compete at LL in 250c/450c if you have been there previously in any other class. This includes little bikes.
Dx3moto wrote:
Even if you raced pee wee's at LL, didn't race until you were about 14 and returned on a 250 in C class, you'd have to...
Even if you raced pee wee's at LL, didn't race until you were about 14 and returned on a 250 in C class, you'd have to ride B?
From the AMA amateur nations rulebook at http://www.mxsports.com/pages/rules/2014-ama-amateur-national-motocross… it says this,


6. Riders may not participate in a “C” class if they have ever:

a. Participated at the National in any previous year in any class (with the exception of Girls classes, Youth Beginner (2011), and Women’s class riders finishing outside the top 5 in the previous year;

b. Received any type of OEM factory support in any class (excluding OEM contingency and trackside support);

c. Earned a Rider Performance Value (RPV) of 15.0 or higher the previous advancement year (Nov. 1, 2012 - Oct. 31, 2013) in any class, including youth divisions; or

d. Competed in any C or youth division at the age of 12 years or older prior to January 1, 2012 and had an RPV or calculated RPV of 11.0 or higher the previous advancement year (Nov. 1, 2012 - Oct. 31, 2013) in 6 or more events.

e. In order to participate in a “C” only designated class, riders must have maintained residency in the U.S. for at least one year prior to the National Final. (Effective 2015) (revised 5.16.14)

f. For more information regarding “C” class eligibility and to check RPV status, visit www.amaracing.com.


So that rules out even the 50cc classes.
mmitoptech
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mmitoptech 6/11/2014 7:43pm
6/11/2014 7:43pm Edited Date/Time 6/11/2014 7:46pm
Alvear999 wrote:
If I'm not mistaking, you cannot compete at LL in 250c/450c if you have been there previously in any other class. This includes little bikes.
So if your info is correct, a kid that wins on an 85 has to compete in 250B? That's nuts.

Edit: WTF. Thats nuts.
Goat Kreations 6/11/2014 7:48pm
6/11/2014 7:48pm
mmitoptech wrote:
So if your info is correct, a kid that wins on an 85 has to compete in 250B? That's nuts.

Edit: WTF. Thats nuts.
Not really. That's like saying it's nuts that Garrett Marchbanks or Austin Forkner will start riding B immediately when they move up. I think that's pretty well expected... even in their own minds.
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Alvear999 6/11/2014 7:48pm
6/11/2014 7:48pm
Alvear999 wrote:
If I'm not mistaking, you cannot compete at LL in 250c/450c if you have been there previously in any other class. This includes little bikes.
mmitoptech wrote:
So if your info is correct, a kid that wins on an 85 has to compete in 250B? That's nuts.

Edit: WTF. Thats nuts.
It is what i had to do when i was on little bikes. But honestly if you can qualify for LL on little bikes (with the exception of the beginner bike classes they added recently), there is no need to be in C class. These guys adapt very quick to the big bikes. Now maybe the top 5-10 B class kids need to be in A class, but then again they usually stay only one year in B if they are that fast.
rt987
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rt987 6/11/2014 7:51pm
6/11/2014 7:51pm
You have to live in the US for a year before you can try for C?!

So Canadians are stuck with B.. Awesome! Challenging.
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Alvear999 6/11/2014 7:54pm
6/11/2014 7:54pm
rt987 wrote:
You have to live in the US for a year before you can try for C?!

So Canadians are stuck with B.. Awesome! Challenging.
Now if thats true, that is a little messed up IMO
mmitoptech
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mmitoptech 6/11/2014 8:08pm
6/11/2014 8:08pm
mmitoptech wrote:
So if your info is correct, a kid that wins on an 85 has to compete in 250B? That's nuts.

Edit: WTF. Thats nuts.
Goat Kreations wrote:
Not really. That's like saying it's nuts that Garrett Marchbanks or Austin Forkner will start riding B immediately when they move up. I think that's pretty...
Not really. That's like saying it's nuts that Garrett Marchbanks or Austin Forkner will start riding B immediately when they move up. I think that's pretty well expected... even in their own minds.
I get that for riders and families that are moving up. The kid has probably been on a 250 before even getting out of the 85 class. IMO it's just nuts to expect every kid that has competed in the 85cc class has to go to 250B right away. That's a big step.
newmann
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newmann 6/11/2014 8:17pm
6/11/2014 8:17pm
You people act like kids going from an 85 to a 250 is an issue. No one was pissing and moaning when Mitch Payton pointed this out 13 years ago. DC doesn't seem to have a problem with it. Honda, Suzuki and Kawasaki don't seem to have a problem with it. I've been harping the stupidity of it for years but then again, I've got the tin foil hat.....Whistling
Original 44
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Original 44 6/11/2014 8:20pm
6/11/2014 8:20pm
mmitoptech wrote:
I get that for riders and families that are moving up. The kid has probably been on a 250 before even getting out of the 85...
I get that for riders and families that are moving up. The kid has probably been on a 250 before even getting out of the 85 class. IMO it's just nuts to expect every kid that has competed in the 85cc class has to go to 250B right away. That's a big step.
There is the Schoolboy 1 and Schoolboy 2. Schoolboy 1 is 125's only.
mmitoptech
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mmitoptech 6/11/2014 8:32pm
6/11/2014 8:32pm
mmitoptech wrote:
I get that for riders and families that are moving up. The kid has probably been on a 250 before even getting out of the 85...
I get that for riders and families that are moving up. The kid has probably been on a 250 before even getting out of the 85 class. IMO it's just nuts to expect every kid that has competed in the 85cc class has to go to 250B right away. That's a big step.
Original 44 wrote:
There is the Schoolboy 1 and Schoolboy 2. Schoolboy 1 is 125's only.
Thanks for the info. To tell you the truth, I've never really looked at the class structures. Time to do some research.Wink
kzizok
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kzizok 6/11/2014 8:34pm
6/11/2014 8:34pm
Even if if you qualified for the PW class, one time, you can never ride the C class. Oh, and the C class is not a beginner class.
hillbilly
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hillbilly 6/11/2014 8:38pm
6/11/2014 8:38pm Edited Date/Time 6/11/2014 8:40pm
He never made it to LLs always had a problem at the regional.

But ,has been riding the 125 schoolboy for 2 yrs i believe.

Is now in the 4str schoolboy and 250c.

The schoolboy was supposed to be the bridge between 85 and 250b

They way i thought it worked,no way he could ride c

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Rmartin508
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Rmartin508 6/11/2014 9:12pm
6/11/2014 9:12pm Edited Date/Time 6/12/2014 5:19am
Check the top 5 250 C riders times from last year. I think it would be a surprise compare them to the B and even A riders. Just for shitsand giggles.
steveada
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steveada 6/12/2014 4:25am
6/12/2014 4:25am
The rules are pretty clear cut. C is not a "beginner" class. The classes are divided based upon skill and results, not experience or how long you have been riding. Even if a kid has been riding since he was 5 years old, if he doesn't have the skill, or race enough to get the advancement points, he stays in the C class. If you ever make it to LL's, you can no longer ride the C class. Classes like schoolboy 1 and 2, and 2-stroke are considered B/C classes, so riders from either class may race. Sure some people tweek the system by watching their points to ensure they don't get enough to advance, but their are plenty of kids like the OP addressed who may have the skill, but due to some bad luck, inconsistency, or injury don't acquire the points to advance in a given year. It is what it is and is perfectly legal. I think the problem is that too many people think the C class is a "beginner" class, and it clearly is not.
RangerLee
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RangerLee 6/12/2014 4:43am
6/12/2014 4:43am
Supermini and schoolboy classes, there are intermediate jumps for those that are not ready to go straight to the 250 class, but too big/old for the 85 class.
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Jack mehoff 6/12/2014 4:55am
6/12/2014 4:55am
hillbilly wrote:
Go to LL,s in 250c after yrs on 65 then 85 winning in both classes occasionally?

I thought C was for beginners.
The nuts part is taking him off that 85 and throwing his ass on a 250f it's like skipping puberty , shit you minus well take take those juices out off the cooler and stop by the liquor store and fill it up with beers
Rmartin508
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Rmartin508 6/12/2014 5:19am
6/12/2014 5:19am Edited Date/Time 6/12/2014 5:20am
steveada wrote:
The rules are pretty clear cut. C is not a "beginner" class. The classes are divided based upon skill and results, not experience or how long...
The rules are pretty clear cut. C is not a "beginner" class. The classes are divided based upon skill and results, not experience or how long you have been riding. Even if a kid has been riding since he was 5 years old, if he doesn't have the skill, or race enough to get the advancement points, he stays in the C class. If you ever make it to LL's, you can no longer ride the C class. Classes like schoolboy 1 and 2, and 2-stroke are considered B/C classes, so riders from either class may race. Sure some people tweek the system by watching their points to ensure they don't get enough to advance, but their are plenty of kids like the OP addressed who may have the skill, but due to some bad luck, inconsistency, or injury don't acquire the points to advance in a given year. It is what it is and is perfectly legal. I think the problem is that too many people think the C class is a "beginner" class, and it clearly is not.
Well put.
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kzizok 6/12/2014 6:14am
6/12/2014 6:14am
hillbilly wrote:
He never made it to LLs always had a problem at the regional. But ,has been riding the 125 schoolboy for 2 yrs i believe. Is...
He never made it to LLs always had a problem at the regional.

But ,has been riding the 125 schoolboy for 2 yrs i believe.

Is now in the 4str schoolboy and 250c.

The schoolboy was supposed to be the bridge between 85 and 250b

They way i thought it worked,no way he could ride c
Sorry, when you said he had been racing/winning on 65's and 85's for years I thought you were talking about LL's. I think I am confused here. If he has ever been to LL's then he can never ride C. If he has never been, then he can ride C. His local small bike results don't come into play.
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Squid-mom 6/12/2014 7:08am
6/12/2014 7:08am
Rmartin508 wrote:
Check the top 5 250 C riders times from last year. I think it would be a surprise compare them to the B and even A...
Check the top 5 250 C riders times from last year. I think it would be a surprise compare them to the B and even A riders. Just for shitsand giggles.
This problem starts in the B class and trickles down to C. Every year the A class at LL has the same 30 back markers, with the addition of last years top ten in B. In 2013, it was guys like AP and Smith. In 2012 it was Webb, McElrath, and Bisceglia. In 2011 it was Hill, Covington, and Bell. Since the B class is the true stepping stone to the pros, the C class winds up losing it's "novice" status.
yz763
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yz763 6/12/2014 10:16am
6/12/2014 10:16am Edited Date/Time 6/12/2014 10:19am
I think the confusion is the classes aren't what they used to be. Before 2006 or 2007 ish the structure was this.....

A= Expert
B= Intermediate
C= Beginner

If you had experience racing any youth class or little bikes (national level or not) you were not considered a beginner because....well, you're simply not a beginner.

The structure now is

A= Expert
B= Not enough points to be an expert/ moved up.
C= Anything less than B.
I guess this means B and C are one in the same.
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langhammx 6/12/2014 10:24am
6/12/2014 10:24am
I know that when my son moved up from the 85's to a 125, I put him in the novice (C) class. He was only 12 and still needed starting blocks to reach the ground. He rode mostly schoolboy locally and a couple novice races. We were signed up for Loretta's in '03 and 4 days before leaving, I received a letter from AMA, stating that he was iUN-ELIGIBLE to race the C class. We had never been to Loretta's and he had only been on the 125 for a couple months. He WAS winning the local novice races, so we started only entering the schoolboy classes, until we would get back from Lorettas. They told me that NOBODY is allowed to compete in the C class, if they've been racing ANY CLASS, longer than 2 years. He had been racing with AMA since peewees, so I had no leg to stand on. The rules have been modified since then, but we got screwed...
yz763
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yz763 6/12/2014 10:33am
6/12/2014 10:33am Edited Date/Time 6/12/2014 10:55am
langhammx wrote:
I know that when my son moved up from the 85's to a 125, I put him in the novice (C) class. He was only 12...
I know that when my son moved up from the 85's to a 125, I put him in the novice (C) class. He was only 12 and still needed starting blocks to reach the ground. He rode mostly schoolboy locally and a couple novice races. We were signed up for Loretta's in '03 and 4 days before leaving, I received a letter from AMA, stating that he was iUN-ELIGIBLE to race the C class. We had never been to Loretta's and he had only been on the 125 for a couple months. He WAS winning the local novice races, so we started only entering the schoolboy classes, until we would get back from Lorettas. They told me that NOBODY is allowed to compete in the C class, if they've been racing ANY CLASS, longer than 2 years. He had been racing with AMA since peewees, so I had no leg to stand on. The rules have been modified since then, but we got screwed...
I called a few people out on this that were at the Mini-O's last year and never got a response. One of the parents did give me shit later on for calling his son out because he was on 85's, superminis and school boy classes for 4 years then jumps into C class at 18 years old and finishes on the podium at Loretta's and Mini O's. One of the parents did tell me the promoter said that "if you haven't raced the national in a previous year...you're a C rider"....which is bullshit.
Looking at people that have qualified for C classes already, I have seen a few names that have been on little bikes for a while and are receiving factory support/ support from the factory teams and are on their way to C class stardom at Loretta's.
langhammx
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langhammx 6/12/2014 10:43am
6/12/2014 10:43am
langhammx wrote:
I know that when my son moved up from the 85's to a 125, I put him in the novice (C) class. He was only 12...
I know that when my son moved up from the 85's to a 125, I put him in the novice (C) class. He was only 12 and still needed starting blocks to reach the ground. He rode mostly schoolboy locally and a couple novice races. We were signed up for Loretta's in '03 and 4 days before leaving, I received a letter from AMA, stating that he was iUN-ELIGIBLE to race the C class. We had never been to Loretta's and he had only been on the 125 for a couple months. He WAS winning the local novice races, so we started only entering the schoolboy classes, until we would get back from Lorettas. They told me that NOBODY is allowed to compete in the C class, if they've been racing ANY CLASS, longer than 2 years. He had been racing with AMA since peewees, so I had no leg to stand on. The rules have been modified since then, but we got screwed...
yz763 wrote:
I called a few people out on this that were at the Mini-O's last year and never got a response. One of the parents did give...
I called a few people out on this that were at the Mini-O's last year and never got a response. One of the parents did give me shit later on for calling his son out because he was on 85's, superminis and school boy classes for 4 years then jumps into C class at 18 years old and finishes on the podium at Loretta's and Mini O's. One of the parents did tell me the promoter said that "if you haven't raced the national in a previous year...you're a C rider"....which is bullshit.
Looking at people that have qualified for C classes already, I have seen a few names that have been on little bikes for a while and are receiving factory support/ support from the factory teams and are on their way to C class stardom at Loretta's.
The "Factory Support" phrase came into effect, after Jeff Alessi signed up for the 125 C class with a Factory Honda ride. Clearly he should've signed up in the B class, but Tony got paid from Honda for every class win the Jeff and Mike were winning. Those kids would dominate the local racing, all the while being paid for every class they raved. Jeff would race 125/ 250 novice, 14-16 85, SuperMini, 85 open and schoolboy. Mike was racing 125/250 int, 14-16 85, supermini, 85 open and schoolboy. I've heard rumors that during the few years @ Honda, they made over a Million dollars, but had to pay their way to the races. Tony, like him or not, was a GREAT negotiator !! Both kids were crazy fast, Mike just got more attention, jeff just goofed off too much and Tony focused all his effort on Mike.

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