buy and run the CR 500 or KX500 production line

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2/23/2018 10:56 PM

kott0n wrote:

A modern 500 sure, old tooled 500's? No.

The males of today can't handle a 18hp jump in 500rpm. Bikes dont explode with power anymore, they gradually ramp up.

JM485 wrote:

A 500 doesn't explode with power, and is one of the easiest bikes to ride. . . I've been racing one since I was 16.

(22 year old pussy millennial here btw)

Show me another MX bike with a 18hp jump in 500 rpms and make 58hp by 7500rpms.

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2/23/2018 11:54 PM

onefiveight wrote:

If there was a legit demand for them KTM would probably be building one. Which would be amazing.

PJRAUS wrote:

This....
But if you are really passionate about it, if you truly believe that there are a decent amount of serious buyers out there....you should perhaps look into using the Internet somehow to compile a sizeable list of names and contacts of people willing to sign up for a bike and give that list to KTM, they may still have the tooling for their old 500 motors and they could possibly fit that into a modified current 4 stroke chassis...do a limited production run strictly to fill a one off pre order...
All highly unlikely but worth a try in order to give yourself the satisfaction of saying you gave it your best shot...

onefiveight wrote:

No harm in trying! I love the idea of the 500 and that is in part due to the nostalgia given that no one makes them anymore. I ride a 125 (167 actually) and it is a ton of fun but I rode a friend’s 17 Husky 250 and I felt like a complete hillbilly. Could have been the track though, Ione Sands, I thought I knew how to ride sand...turns out I had never been on a proper sand track lol

That's right....no ha rm whatsoever in trying. I personally have no interest in owning a 500 cc two stroke....if KTM were to produce an up to date designed 380 cc two stroke...one with tractable power combined with the light weight that they are known for...id be sporting some serious wood..it would be more than enough motor for me.
I'm enjoying owning, riding and racing a nice cross section of what is on offer...I really like my yz 450...so much power and it hooks up...squirt it and jump anything...but drop it in a mud race? Games' over b4 I get it started again....my 125 is just so much like home to me...totally comfortable on it....but I get blown away on starts and out of
corners...my 250 four stroke...it's the last of the carbureted Yamahas ...feels light...handles well...but when it comes to clearing that big leap...wish I was back on my 450.... The truth is my corner speed is embarrassingly low...

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2020 YZ450F
2006 YZ125
2013 YZ 250F special edition
2017 YZ 250
2015 YZ 250f soecial edition
2019 KTM 85 big wheel

2/24/2018 5:42 AM

Why offer a full bike? Why not focus on just building/offeringnew 500cc engines and offer conversion kits for current popular bikes to fit your 500cc engine?

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2/24/2018 6:28 AM

500s really aren't that fun to ride in my opinion. Somewhere between 250 and 500 they go from nimble and exciting to beasts.

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2/24/2018 6:40 AM

PRM31 wrote:

500s really aren't that fun to ride in my opinion. Somewhere between 250 and 500 they go from nimble and exciting to beasts.

Thing is with mapping and say di you can arrange the pwr how ever which way you want..with a counter balancer
Say a nice roll on curve to an easy 55hp,
problem is no one wants to make 1 cause it could literally last 10 years

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2/24/2018 9:19 AM

PRM31 wrote:

500s really aren't that fun to ride in my opinion. Somewhere between 250 and 500 they go from nimble and exciting to beasts.

That's kind of the attraction tbh

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2/24/2018 10:33 AM

Good point on having just engine parts made. I am also intrigued about that 2T chinese bike - think of them what you want, but an MX bike isn't rocket science. A good torquey 500 based on the CR500 - KX500 design and might also work.

Bottom line, I'd spend 10k for a new 500 from the main manufacturers but won't for a 450. Perversely, I think the Alta offers the best value out there right now and I hope they bring it to Europe.

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2/24/2018 11:40 AM
Edited Date/Time: 2/24/2018 11:43 AM

doghouse wrote:

And honestly, I am sort of one of them. But not for the same 30 year old CR500 that already exists, I have one, and you can buy them all day for a lot cheaper, why would you drop a shed of money on a new one? Fresher paint? It just doesn't make sense.

I'd like an all new big bore two stroke, and I'd pay a load of money for one, but nobody is gonna make that because only ten people will buy one.

Markee wrote:

I disagree. I would buy one as well. Thats 3 already in this thread. The market would be the same that buys a Factory Edition. Even with the industry holding flat or decreasing KTM/Husky comes out with a more expensive 4T and they sell. Just like the Alta will sell.

doghouse wrote:

You'd buy a 20k bike? Because I specifically said I wouldn't buy a new old 500, only a completely new factory tested and designed one that had as much development as the current 450s. I'd want modern EFI, chassis, suspension, most likely direct injection and variable intake and exhaust porting, etc...

Hell no. I must have misunderstood. I'd buy a big bore from any of the major 6 at a higher price point because of minimal volume like the factory editions. That's all.

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2/24/2018 11:48 AM

I want to add my my 2 cents because my job is a manufacturing engineer and these subjects interest me!

You will never get drawings or line layout or even tooling drawings without extenuating circumstances. Although you may think they are old and useless, they are still valuable to the corporation. They contain proprietary and confidential information that they aren't going to release. Sometimes things do sneak out but they aren't just going to "sell" someone that kind of information.

You can take a complete NOS 500 motor and send it off for metrology services where it will be reverse engineered into an exact replica 3D model. A company like Exact Metrology specializes in this type of work for many big customers in the US.

Take those 3D files and find a contract or freelance mechanical engineer specializing in internal combustion/engine design and show them the project. They can cleanup the model & do all of the engineering needed to make sure that the parts are designed for function & manufacturability. Additionally, you could pay them to further develop the CAD files needed for quoting parts. The engineer would probably want a donor motor to send it off for a complete metallurgy analysis which will be needed for the caster's recipe.

You will spend a long time in the engineering phase. Eventually, you'll get something ready that you can actually work with. You would want to find a higher end CNC or motor shop that is competent enough to provide engineering services for you for the manufacture of all parts. They should be able to work with the casters in the area to make molds & rough cast and then utilize their in house CNC shop to finish. If the modeling and design are good enough and you also supply them with a NOS motor to have on hand for proto, it really is not that complex of a job!

Building only a few motors is extremely expensive, but if you can get batch orders or enough of a production run to justify specialized tooling and fixturing, the price per will start to drop drastically because you could just ammortize the tooling over a spread of units. This will reduce manufacturing time in the shop and improve quality.

It just takes alot of money and time but it 100% can be done. You would have to Dyno the hell out of the first few batches and plan on destructive testing to see how it's going to break before I even thought about putting one under a real person.

If I had to estimate, I think a guy would spend $80k to $100k by the time they were holding the first reproduction unit.

Again - even if you can afford it I don't know how you get around the legality.

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2/24/2018 11:55 AM

Alta is a good thermometer for what a US bike would cost. It will be interesting to see how good they are at turning investment into profitability.

A small bike company is such a huge underdog to be able to eat into the market share. It would be so hard to keep up with R&D when your competition is KTM, Suzuki, Honda.....you get the point.

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2/24/2018 12:56 PM

We don't need a bike. We just need a 500 kit for the current version KTM 250SX.

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