buy and run the CR 500 or KX500 production line

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2/23/2018 1:04 PM

I started a thread a few years ago about a new KTM 450SX(note that I didn't say SX-F), and it seemed to generate a bit of interest at the time. I still think that there would probably be enough buyers for one manufacturer to produce an open class two stroke. Wouldn't be too difficult if they just basically dropped a new motor in one of their existing chassis. And yes, I realize that there would be a little more to it than that.

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2/23/2018 1:10 PM

doghouse wrote:

I think so, as does ML, who is pretty tuned in.

I guess I would put the question to you why would you pay that much money for a new bike when there are tons of used ones available? What are you gaining?

I've had no problem with parts personally, so not a factor in my decision making on this. There's a CR500 for sale in the classified section as we speak from the guy I bought mine from, a 2001 in great shape, for 4500 bucks or so.

For all his knowledge i doubt hes up on Euro vet racing, where money is often an afterthought. Plenty of boutique bikes and aftermarket manus in Europe.
The us doesnt alway reflect the world as far as markets go...
Of course we could just shut this convo down, take our lumps and watch some mind numbing TV..

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2/23/2018 1:15 PM

onefiveight wrote:

If there was a legit demand for them KTM would probably be building one. Which would be amazing.

This....
But if you are really passionate about it, if you truly believe that there are a decent amount of serious buyers out there....you should perhaps look into using the Internet somehow to compile a sizeable list of names and contacts of people willing to sign up for a bike and give that list to KTM, they may still have the tooling for their old 500 motors and they could possibly fit that into a modified current 4 stroke chassis...do a limited production run strictly to fill a one off pre order...
All highly unlikely but worth a try in order to give yourself the satisfaction of saying you gave it your best shot...

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2020 YZ450F
2006 YZ125
2013 YZ 250F special edition
2017 YZ 250
2015 YZ 250f soecial edition
2019 KTM 85 big wheel

2/23/2018 1:17 PM
Edited Date/Time: 2/23/2018 1:17 PM

make1go wrote:

For all his knowledge i doubt hes up on Euro vet racing, where money is often an afterthought. Plenty of boutique bikes and aftermarket manus in Europe.
The us doesnt alway reflect the world as far as markets go...
Of course we could just shut this convo down, take our lumps and watch some mind numbing TV..

What sort of gibberish did you just write?

I said like two post up it's a fun conversation, and nobody said anything about limiting to the US market, Mike just used that as a numbers qualified.

Anyway, the OP was about CR or KX 500s. They are already in abundance. If money isn't an issue, import them to Europe till your hearts content.

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2/23/2018 1:17 PM

You can buy a brand new 500cc honda 2 stoke motor right now. Company is Panthera out Canada and it has electric start.

People put CR500 motors in KTM's, zooks etc and obv Honda's. They vibrate when you idle or put around but mine sings when on the pipe.I love my CR5000 in '08 CRF250R frame.

I'm bias but even still I would buy a KTM 300 FI/e start/counter balanced if I were buying new but I will never sell the 500 and would add more used 500/250/125 smokers to the stable.

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2/23/2018 1:19 PM

onefiveight wrote:

If there was a legit demand for them KTM would probably be building one. Which would be amazing.

PJRAUS wrote:

This....
But if you are really passionate about it, if you truly believe that there are a decent amount of serious buyers out there....you should perhaps look into using the Internet somehow to compile a sizeable list of names and contacts of people willing to sign up for a bike and give that list to KTM, they may still have the tooling for their old 500 motors and they could possibly fit that into a modified current 4 stroke chassis...do a limited production run strictly to fill a one off pre order...
All highly unlikely but worth a try in order to give yourself the satisfaction of saying you gave it your best shot...

Well, in my original post, this Canadian company seems to have put a great effort into developing a modern 500 for a KTM.

https://www.facebook.com/brcracingcanada/

This looks like a very detailed effort, with highly sophisticated computer models and proper manufacturing. However, cost is very very high. I am very keen to see how well they do.

If I were KTM I'd be watching this closely and buy their work and sell as aftermarket or upgrade - a bit like Mountune do for Ford in the UK, allowing you to retain a warranty.

Not quite as nice as a factory fresh 500 but near enough

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2/23/2018 1:25 PM

A modern 500 sure, old tooled 500's? No.

The males of today can't handle a 18hp jump in 500rpm. Bikes dont explode with power anymore, they gradually ramp up.

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2/23/2018 1:28 PM

stuckmojo wrote:

Well, in my original post, this Canadian company seems to have put a great effort into developing a modern 500 for a KTM.

https://www.facebook.com/brcracingcanada/

This looks like a very detailed effort, with highly sophisticated computer models and proper manufacturing. However, cost is very very high. I am very keen to see how well they do.

If I were KTM I'd be watching this closely and buy their work and sell as aftermarket or upgrade - a bit like Mountune do for Ford in the UK, allowing you to retain a warranty.

Not quite as nice as a factory fresh 500 but near enough

It definitely looks cool, I'm gonna keep my eye on it

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2/23/2018 1:30 PM

kott0n wrote:

You can buy a brand new 500cc honda 2 stoke motor right now. Company is Panthera out Canada and it has electric start.

People put CR500 motors in KTM's, zooks etc and obv Honda's. They vibrate when you idle or put around but mine sings when on the pipe.I love my CR5000 in '08 CRF250R frame.

I'm bias but even still I would buy a KTM 300 FI/e start/counter balanced if I were buying new but I will never sell the 500 and would add more used 500/250/125 smokers to the stable.

They don't vibrate near as bad in steel frames as aluminum. That's really the biggest drawback to AFs imom

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2/23/2018 1:33 PM

kott0n wrote:

You can buy a brand new 500cc honda 2 stoke motor right now. Company is Panthera out Canada and it has electric start.

People put CR500 motors in KTM's, zooks etc and obv Honda's. They vibrate when you idle or put around but mine sings when on the pipe.I love my CR5000 in '08 CRF250R frame.

I'm bias but even still I would buy a KTM 300 FI/e start/counter balanced if I were buying new but I will never sell the 500 and would add more used 500/250/125 smokers to the stable.

doghouse wrote:

They don't vibrate near as bad in steel frames as aluminum. That's really the biggest drawback to AFs imom

Yes, I agree. I can really only feel it in my feet/hands when I'm idle or off the pipe. As soon as you get on the gas it smooths out.

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2/23/2018 1:36 PM

kott0n wrote:

Yes, I agree. I can really only feel it in my feet/hands when I'm idle or off the pipe. As soon as you get on the gas it smooths out.

For sure. The AF is sweet when ripping

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2/23/2018 2:20 PM
Edited Date/Time: 2/23/2018 2:30 PM

Panthera builds some nice stuff!

Billet CR500 motor with E-start option!


https://www.pantheramotorsports.com/


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2/23/2018 2:31 PM

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2/23/2018 2:37 PM
Edited Date/Time: 2/23/2018 2:38 PM

doghouse wrote:

You'd buy a 20k bike? Because I specifically said I wouldn't buy a new old 500, only a completely new factory tested and designed one that had as much development as the current 450s. I'd want modern EFI, chassis, suspension, most likely direct injection and variable intake and exhaust porting, etc...

I don't know Doggie. Look at all the guys that buy a brand new bike, throw $1g exhausts, cone valve forks, bling everything, powder coat their nipples and $1500 worth of wheels to go drag race down at the gravel pit. They are still probably sporting a mullet, Oakley Blades and parachute pants. It could happen.

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The older I get, the faster I was.

2/23/2018 2:45 PM

The 500 2-stroke has really seen a lot of usage recently in the snowbike world! Lots of project bikes being built strictly as snowbikes that never see dirt.

Photo

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2/23/2018 4:11 PM

I don’t think building entire bikes would be feasible whatsoever. Just wouldn’t get off the ground imo.

What would most likely be the best option is building new cast crate motors. People would buy them either as replacements, or for projects. Much wider market, especially if you somehow had the molds and tooling for 125s, 250s, and 500s. Good cases and OEM cranks can be hard to come by. If you could somehow maintain OEM quality for cranks and cases, you’d be in business.

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If you're not mixing gas, you're not haulin ass.

2/23/2018 4:20 PM

I would buy a KTM500sx the day they announce it for anything under $10k.

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2/23/2018 4:22 PM

Frank wrote:

I would buy a KTM500sx the day they announce it for anything under $10k.

Yeah, the under 10k part is the kicker.

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2/23/2018 4:36 PM

The majority of the tooling has long gone. Drawings still exist, but will never be sold.
Even if you had access, I think you're underestimating the costs involved in producing a bike from scratch, all the way to being on the showroom floor waiting for a buyer.

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"Nothing happens until something moves"

2/23/2018 4:42 PM

kott0n wrote:

A modern 500 sure, old tooled 500's? No.

The males of today can't handle a 18hp jump in 500rpm. Bikes dont explode with power anymore, they gradually ramp up.

A 500 doesn't explode with power, and is one of the easiest bikes to ride. . . I've been racing one since I was 16.

(22 year old pussy millennial here btw)

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Make Hillclimb Great Again

Ratbeach Racing

Instagram / YouTube: @485Josh

3dpmoto.com



2/23/2018 4:50 PM

kott0n wrote:

A modern 500 sure, old tooled 500's? No.

The males of today can't handle a 18hp jump in 500rpm. Bikes dont explode with power anymore, they gradually ramp up.

JM485 wrote:

A 500 doesn't explode with power, and is one of the easiest bikes to ride. . . I've been racing one since I was 16.

(22 year old pussy millennial here btw)

Proud of you son. You ain't wrong with your statement. The sport took a turn for the worse when they thought lap times = fun. They dropped the 500 and 125 for this reason. Not sure about the rest of you but fun is the ONLY thing that matters to me.

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2/23/2018 5:04 PM

tempura wrote:

The majority of the tooling has long gone. Drawings still exist, but will never be sold.
Even if you had access, I think you're underestimating the costs involved in producing a bike from scratch, all the way to being on the showroom floor waiting for a buyer.

This.

Keep in mind that Honda and Kawasaki, the people who already own the tooling and factories to make the bikes, along with having all the supply chain and labor intact to build them, along with ample production line time (I'm guessing, since there's been a worldwide downturn in motorcycle sales,) have both decided that it's not in their best interest to release any new versions of the existing designs. Existing designs which would cost absolutely NOTHING in R&D. This means only one thing: it is, quite literally, not worth the manpower to build a 500cc two-stroke out of scrap parts they have laying around or can get in short order.

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Braaapin' aint easy.

2/23/2018 5:33 PM

Since Yamaha was late to the party with the 65, perhaps they will build a new 500!?!

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2/23/2018 5:40 PM

onefiveight wrote:

If there was a legit demand for them KTM would probably be building one. Which would be amazing.

PJRAUS wrote:

This....
But if you are really passionate about it, if you truly believe that there are a decent amount of serious buyers out there....you should perhaps look into using the Internet somehow to compile a sizeable list of names and contacts of people willing to sign up for a bike and give that list to KTM, they may still have the tooling for their old 500 motors and they could possibly fit that into a modified current 4 stroke chassis...do a limited production run strictly to fill a one off pre order...
All highly unlikely but worth a try in order to give yourself the satisfaction of saying you gave it your best shot...

No harm in trying! I love the idea of the 500 and that is in part due to the nostalgia given that no one makes them anymore. I ride a 125 (167 actually) and it is a ton of fun but I rode a friend’s 17 Husky 250 and I felt like a complete hillbilly. Could have been the track though, Ione Sands, I thought I knew how to ride sand...turns out I had never been on a proper sand track lol

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2/23/2018 6:06 PM

kott0n wrote:

A modern 500 sure, old tooled 500's? No.

The males of today can't handle a 18hp jump in 500rpm. Bikes dont explode with power anymore, they gradually ramp up.

JM485 wrote:

A 500 doesn't explode with power, and is one of the easiest bikes to ride. . . I've been racing one since I was 16.

(22 year old pussy millennial here btw)

Frank wrote:

Proud of you son. You ain't wrong with your statement. The sport took a turn for the worse when they thought lap times = fun. They dropped the 500 and 125 for this reason. Not sure about the rest of you but fun is the ONLY thing that matters to me.

Dilly Dilly!

To be fair, it’s mostly raced in hillclimb, but I’ve been known to bring it out to the track and make old guys happy.cool. They really don’t handle all that terrible either, I even ran mine in a straight rhythm race and it was all good. It on my YouTube channel (same as the IG name in my signature) on the off chance you want to check it out, it over a year ago now though.

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Make Hillclimb Great Again

Ratbeach Racing

Instagram / YouTube: @485Josh

3dpmoto.com



2/23/2018 6:30 PM

doghouse wrote:

I think so, as does ML, who is pretty tuned in.

I guess I would put the question to you why would you pay that much money for a new bike when there are tons of used ones available? What are you gaining?

I've had no problem with parts personally, so not a factor in my decision making on this. There's a CR500 for sale in the classified section as we speak from the guy I bought mine from, a 2001 in great shape, for 4500 bucks or so.

make1go wrote:

For all his knowledge i doubt hes up on Euro vet racing, where money is often an afterthought. Plenty of boutique bikes and aftermarket manus in Europe.
The us doesnt alway reflect the world as far as markets go...
Of course we could just shut this convo down, take our lumps and watch some mind numbing TV..

doghouse wrote:

What sort of gibberish did you just write?

I said like two post up it's a fun conversation, and nobody said anything about limiting to the US market, Mike just used that as a numbers qualified.

Anyway, the OP was about CR or KX 500s. They are already in abundance. If money isn't an issue, import them to Europe till your hearts content.

Sorry if my writing is above your level, sorry if my humor is above your head, im sorry for you..

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2/23/2018 7:04 PM

I wonder what kinda production numbers companies like DASA are doing in the stand up jetski market. I have several friends who don't even bat an eye at dropping 9k on an engine for their ski. Cylinder, cases, everythings billet too

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If I wanted to ride a 4stroke, I would stay home and mow the lawn

2/23/2018 7:11 PM
Edited Date/Time: 2/23/2018 7:16 PM

tempura wrote:

The majority of the tooling has long gone. Drawings still exist, but will never be sold.
Even if you had access, I think you're underestimating the costs involved in producing a bike from scratch, all the way to being on the showroom floor waiting for a buyer.

Falcon wrote:

This.

Keep in mind that Honda and Kawasaki, the people who already own the tooling and factories to make the bikes, along with having all the supply chain and labor intact to build them, along with ample production line time (I'm guessing, since there's been a worldwide downturn in motorcycle sales,) have both decided that it's not in their best interest to release any new versions of the existing designs. Existing designs which would cost absolutely NOTHING in R&D. This means only one thing: it is, quite literally, not worth the manpower to build a 500cc two-stroke out of scrap parts they have laying around or can get in short order.

Even if the OEM tooling no longer exists, technology has continued to march on. This video was done 6 years ago. Might not be financially viable from a production standpoint, but it can be done. Maybe spare parts support? Probably still gonna be expensive no doubt.


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2/23/2018 8:09 PM

I have a few cr500s and i liked the ktm380sx engine better. Handled horrible though. How big can the new ktm 300sx or 250sx get bored or machined to?

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2/23/2018 10:31 PM
Edited Date/Time: 2/23/2018 10:32 PM

stuckmojo wrote:

This

&lc=z22hezagsxeghzt21acdp43a0l0ngcmovnq3ilwelmdw03c010c.1519412585400544&feature=em-comments


got me thinking.


What would have happened to the tooling, production line and drawings for the CR500 or KX500 engines? Neither Honda nor Kawasaki are interested in producing these and given there are no more new spares it looks like the lines are defunct.

What if someone would buy the tooling/casing and started producing the engines on their own? The number one debate topic when it comes to dirt bikes is 2T/4T and many seem to miss the big engines. I am one of them. I would queue up to buy a new 500 - even with none of the modern things.

I'll be collecting some data and run some numbers to see how/if this could be done. I know a company who is about to release a KTM 500 engine but the cost is astronomical (think 5 figures for the drop in kit alone)

https://www.facebook.com/brcracingcanada/

thoughts?

BobbyM wrote:

Dream on

ML512 wrote:

The man has spoken.

Ktm uses the same chassis. They could produce a new two stroke motor the same cost as a 250 to them. Cheaper than an all new four stroke engine( this is easy part lol.) It should be cheaper than an sxf. Less parts to build. Just announce it's a two or three year run in advance of release. They'll sellout

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when in doubt, pin it out