bottom end

Edited Date/Time 9/5/2013 6:20pm
putting a new pin and bearing on a crank for a 04 yz 125 and i cant find the gasket for the middle of the engine. between the two big cases.

question 1: is there something i should use other then a normal gasket?

question 2: should i use grease when pressing the new pin and bearing in?

any other tips would be helpful. this is my first time working in the bottom end of an engine

thanks
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lostboy819
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9/3/2013 12:37pm Edited Date/Time 9/3/2013 12:39pm
There is no gasket, you use yamabond.
Don't use grease.
If you freeze the complete crank after its trued it will be easier to press the cases together
Press the cases together slowly and spin the transmissions shafts as you put them together
BAMX
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9/3/2013 12:44pm
Use Yamabond or Threebond 1211

The Shop

BAMX
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9/3/2013 1:37pm
RM250racer wrote:
what about hondabond?
I am not familiar with Hondabond but Yamabond and 1211 work great. 1104 works pretty good as well. If i were doing it, i would buy a tube of 1211. I have even smeared a thin coat on old gaskets in a pinch and never had an issue with leaking. It seals oil, gas, antifreeze etc.
BAD10
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9/3/2013 1:41pm
I hope you are planning on having the crank and rod assembly balanced and trued after installing the new pin.
9/3/2013 2:08pm
BAD10 wrote:
I hope you are planning on having the crank and rod assembly balanced and trued after installing the new pin.
yea i figured that was necessary. would any shop be able to do it for me?
hillbilly
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9/3/2013 2:38pm
BAD10 wrote:
I hope you are planning on having the crank and rod assembly balanced and trued after installing the new pin.
RM250racer wrote:
yea i figured that was necessary. would any shop be able to do it for me?
Not correct,lots of guys cla in m to be a good crank man but they are few.

Watch them and read the run out on the gauge yourself.

You should put crank bearings in also.

If you put the bearings in the freezer the day before or several hours before needed they slip right in the case if the case is
Warmed till you can not lay your hand on it long.

If they hang up a c clamp or vice can be used to push them in,even a tap from a dead blow hammer.

When frozen they usually slide right in.

The case halves should slip close enuff together so you can use the bolts to pull it the rest of the way,

No binding here,it should slip together easy if you got all the shafts in correct.

It is important that the yamabond be on both case halves,a thin coat.

Especially around the crank,this seal must be correct,if it pulls air between the caes the engine goes lean and will fail.

I install new crank seals last ,wipe a litte oil on the lip and push in with fingers usually.

A piece of pvc pipe the right diameter works to push in seals.
9/3/2013 3:59pm
the problem is i dont have a gauge. is there a place you could find one relatively cheap? habor freight ?
lostboy819
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9/3/2013 4:34pm
No, you need a truing stand and two dial indicators to do it right and then you need to put a block between the crank half's when you press the cases together so you don't knock it out of true.
lostboy819
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9/3/2013 4:41pm
If you are going to do it then do it right. If you are not going to be doing many than it may be better to have a shop do the rod replacement and truing and then you can install it. A few pics of tools you need to do it the right way but some are expensive and not worth it unless you do a bunch, you should be able to bring a shop your crank and a rod kit and let them do the labor as it will be cheaper than any one of the tools.








typ2vw159
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9/3/2013 5:39pm
RM250racer wrote:
putting a new pin and bearing on a crank for a 04 yz 125 and i cant find the gasket for the middle of the engine...
putting a new pin and bearing on a crank for a 04 yz 125 and i cant find the gasket for the middle of the engine. between the two big cases.

question 1: is there something i should use other then a normal gasket?

question 2: should i use grease when pressing the new pin and bearing in?

any other tips would be helpful. this is my first time working in the bottom end of an engine

thanks
Tip #1 put it in a box an ship it to lostboy819
Tip#2 DON,T take it to an auto shop!
holeshot100
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9/3/2013 6:01pm
Putting together a crank, and balancing should all be done at the same time by the same individual. Much of getting a crank balanced perfectly(very important) is getting it right when pressing together the crank halves. A person who is good at cranks, will be very close after they pressed together the halves. Hopefully after pressing the halves together at the right tolerance of rod free play, a tap or two with their brass hammer will have you with less than 1000th of run out. IMO, if the pin has been pressed into a crank once and had to be removed from either side it should be thrown away.

Another huge mistake is people assembling the center cases. It is very easy to throw a nicely balanced crank out of whack(the smaller the CC the easier) assembling the cases by "tapping" them together back and forth getting it to slide down over the crank. Even the method of using your center case screws to pull the cases together evenly is butchery to me. You can use the same cooling procedure you used with your "cold" main bearings and heated cases by putting your assembled crank in the freezer. If you have heated your cases to install your "cold" main bearings, then you can allow a little time for your bearings to absorb that heat before sliding the crank into one of your case halves. Some cases and cranks are more of a "pressed fit" on one side and a "slip fit" on the other case side. Refer to a manual for your exact model(both sides may be a pressed fit"). Some people put the crank seals in before(make sure cases are not too hot), and some people do afterwards. The important part is not to harm the seal.

If your cases do not slide together easily on their own, you should have the proper crank pulling tool to finish the job.
lostboy819
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9/3/2013 6:12pm Edited Date/Time 9/3/2013 9:40pm
Putting together a crank, and balancing should all be done at the same time by the same individual. Much of getting a crank balanced perfectly(very important)...
Putting together a crank, and balancing should all be done at the same time by the same individual. Much of getting a crank balanced perfectly(very important) is getting it right when pressing together the crank halves. A person who is good at cranks, will be very close after they pressed together the halves. Hopefully after pressing the halves together at the right tolerance of rod free play, a tap or two with their brass hammer will have you with less than 1000th of run out. IMO, if the pin has been pressed into a crank once and had to be removed from either side it should be thrown away.

Another huge mistake is people assembling the center cases. It is very easy to throw a nicely balanced crank out of whack(the smaller the CC the easier) assembling the cases by "tapping" them together back and forth getting it to slide down over the crank. Even the method of using your center case screws to pull the cases together evenly is butchery to me. You can use the same cooling procedure you used with your "cold" main bearings and heated cases by putting your assembled crank in the freezer. If you have heated your cases to install your "cold" main bearings, then you can allow a little time for your bearings to absorb that heat before sliding the crank into one of your case halves. Some cases and cranks are more of a "pressed fit" on one side and a "slip fit" on the other case side. Refer to a manual for your exact model(both sides may be a pressed fit"). Some people put the crank seals in before(make sure cases are not too hot), and some people do afterwards. The important part is not to harm the seal.

If your cases do not slide together easily on their own, you should have the proper crank pulling tool to finish the job.
X 2
With a good crank jig you can be very close when you press it together and need only minor taps with the brass hammer. Yamaha had a nice jig that they sold through their tool supplier but it was $600 back in 1978 but you could have the crank pressed together and be almost within tolerance. I have seen people spend an hour getting a crank zeroed and then when they get it all bolted together and it has some binding they hit the crank end with a hammer to free it up. why bother to zero it when they smack it with a hammer .DOH Pinch
mx5471
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9/3/2013 7:33pm
To RM250racer. I have worked on many YZ's in my life and it's obvious that you are in over your head with this one. You didn't already split the cases, or you would have know there is no gasket. Hopefully you can return the parts you bought. You will never get it right. It takes the right tools, and more importantly experience to redo the crank. Easiest way is to replace it with an oem crank, bearings and seals. No Wiseco or Hot Rods stuff. Then you can be confident that it will last as long as you install them properly. That you can do, but you still need the right tools. I made some but then replaced them with Tusk tools from Rocky Mountain. Very reasonable on price and have worked very well on all motors. The stator puller on a YZ is a common one and does work on other makes but not all. It's an important tool, and is less than $20. You will need at least the special lock washer holding in the clutch basket, and the O-ring that's inside the case. Good idea to replace all the seals at output shaft, and starter, shifter, and new gaskets everywhere. Split the cases, ( do not touch the mating surfaces with any thing other than toilet paper). Take out the tranny. It comes out in 1 piece. Clean everything good, and tip the cases outside up on some blocks of wood. Get a couple of those cheap clamp lights with the aluminum shroud on them. 100 watt bulbs, and put them as close to the case as you can, close to the bearings over night. Put the new bearings and the crank in the freezer. At 300% in the oven, the bearings will fall out, but the old lady will kill you. Next day a light tap and they will fall out. Clean the area and leave the light on them a couple more hours and then put the bearings in. They'll drop right in. A tap to make sure they're seated properly. Leave the seals for the last step. Some Kawi's have the seal on the inside, but the YZ's go in from the outside. Then start the process all over again, as you need to heat the bearings now. You can put the tranny in if you want. Next day get out the crank, and it it will drop in with a thunk. Then quickly put on the other case. It'll go on easy. Be sure every thing spins freely, and tighten everything around in sequence. I started using this method before having any tools, and the guys at the shop I bought the bikes and parts from split the cases for me. After that I did everything using this method with complete success, only using standard hand tools. Thought it was a one time thing at the time. Wrong. So I finally made some,and then bought the right ones. Now I can do it in an afternoon. It's long but I hope it helps. Lots of guys want to ride and work on their bikes to make it affordable, and may just need some input to get them through.
BAMX
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9/3/2013 8:00pm Edited Date/Time 9/3/2013 8:14pm
Read this

http://www.eric-gorr.com/incl/pdfs/2%20stroke%20top%20end%20and%20perfo…

(all of it) and buy the factory manual. Buy whatever tools you need and go for it. If you are doing something that is ruining the surface and bending etc., you are doing it wrong. Really....read that Gorr article a few times as it has great advice and shows how to do it without hammering it. Also, either buy a new non Wiseco crank or have someone rebuild it. Use the search as I remember a thread about guys who rebuild cranks for a living

OH...WASH YOUR BIKE BEFORE YOU START

EDIT: I just noticed that the Gorr article is missing some pages...Damn. Buy the book it is excellent.
chillrich
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9/4/2013 6:52am
Just went through my first shifter bottom end this summer, some key points;
Freeze crank and bearings.
Heat gun to "relax" the cases for bearing and crank removal/install
Double, no triple check for washers, shims or spacers that are stuck to surfaces. This will save a lot of grief later, nothing worse than trying to pull out a tranny in one piece and hearing a "tink" as the 0.5mm spacer drops from somewhere.
Build or buy a crank puller, I built one for about $10 out of threaded rod, pipe and pvc.
Buy or borrow a flywheel puller, $12 from China on ebay
lumpy790
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9/4/2013 8:00am
You said new pin & bearing ..... you are replacing the rod too correct?

Always replace the main bearings and main seals when splitting the cases.
9/4/2013 8:11am
The finished product should resemble this - perfectly balanced and centered

9/5/2013 12:31pm
my autos teacher is going to let me use some stuff to make a truing stand after school. V blocks and indicators. my question is what do you do to true it? hammer and block of wood? i think i rubber mallet wouldnt give enough force to move it.

oh and what is the normal tolerance? this is my first time doing anything to do with the bottom end besides shifting linkage in a 98 kx250 (which didnt involve splitting the case) and before everyone tells me to take it in or have a shop do it, i want to learn how to do this myself. everyone has to start somewhere.

thanks
lostboy819
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9/5/2013 2:25pm Edited Date/Time 9/5/2013 2:28pm
RM250racer wrote:
my autos teacher is going to let me use some stuff to make a truing stand after school. V blocks and indicators. my question is what...
my autos teacher is going to let me use some stuff to make a truing stand after school. V blocks and indicators. my question is what do you do to true it? hammer and block of wood? i think i rubber mallet wouldnt give enough force to move it.

oh and what is the normal tolerance? this is my first time doing anything to do with the bottom end besides shifting linkage in a 98 kx250 (which didnt involve splitting the case) and before everyone tells me to take it in or have a shop do it, i want to learn how to do this myself. everyone has to start somewhere.

thanks
Brass hammer
Get a Yamaha manual for that year and model, it will tell you side clearance and give you everything you need to know, if you don't have a manual then you are in over your head.
9/5/2013 3:33pm
RM250racer wrote:
my autos teacher is going to let me use some stuff to make a truing stand after school. V blocks and indicators. my question is what...
my autos teacher is going to let me use some stuff to make a truing stand after school. V blocks and indicators. my question is what do you do to true it? hammer and block of wood? i think i rubber mallet wouldnt give enough force to move it.

oh and what is the normal tolerance? this is my first time doing anything to do with the bottom end besides shifting linkage in a 98 kx250 (which didnt involve splitting the case) and before everyone tells me to take it in or have a shop do it, i want to learn how to do this myself. everyone has to start somewhere.

thanks
lostboy819 wrote:
Brass hammer Get a Yamaha manual for that year and model, it will tell you side clearance and give you everything you need to know, if...
Brass hammer
Get a Yamaha manual for that year and model, it will tell you side clearance and give you everything you need to know, if you don't have a manual then you are in over your head.
brass hammer straight on the crank?
holeshot100
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9/5/2013 6:15pm
RM250racer wrote:
my autos teacher is going to let me use some stuff to make a truing stand after school. V blocks and indicators. my question is what...
my autos teacher is going to let me use some stuff to make a truing stand after school. V blocks and indicators. my question is what do you do to true it? hammer and block of wood? i think i rubber mallet wouldnt give enough force to move it.

oh and what is the normal tolerance? this is my first time doing anything to do with the bottom end besides shifting linkage in a 98 kx250 (which didnt involve splitting the case) and before everyone tells me to take it in or have a shop do it, i want to learn how to do this myself. everyone has to start somewhere.

thanks
lostboy819 wrote:
Brass hammer Get a Yamaha manual for that year and model, it will tell you side clearance and give you everything you need to know, if...
Brass hammer
Get a Yamaha manual for that year and model, it will tell you side clearance and give you everything you need to know, if you don't have a manual then you are in over your head.
RM250racer wrote:
brass hammer straight on the crank?
You are over your head. Crank rebuilding properly to the right tolerances consistently all starts with the pressing together of the halves with the proper equipment and technique. You should only attempt what you are doing after you have watched a professional do it more than once , and then stand by your side for complete assembly including the cases while advising on every step. You should hardly use the truing stand.

The one lesson you will learn by doing the crank by yourself without proper equipment and experience is that you will pay to have it done the right way when it blows up and destroys top ends, and even your cases.

Out of balance crank might be ok, but just don't install the powerband, because then it will vibrate real bad.
lumpy790
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9/5/2013 6:17pm
RM250racer wrote:
my autos teacher is going to let me use some stuff to make a truing stand after school. V blocks and indicators. my question is what...
my autos teacher is going to let me use some stuff to make a truing stand after school. V blocks and indicators. my question is what do you do to true it? hammer and block of wood? i think i rubber mallet wouldnt give enough force to move it.

oh and what is the normal tolerance? this is my first time doing anything to do with the bottom end besides shifting linkage in a 98 kx250 (which didnt involve splitting the case) and before everyone tells me to take it in or have a shop do it, i want to learn how to do this myself. everyone has to start somewhere.

thanks
lostboy819 wrote:
Brass hammer Get a Yamaha manual for that year and model, it will tell you side clearance and give you everything you need to know, if...
Brass hammer
Get a Yamaha manual for that year and model, it will tell you side clearance and give you everything you need to know, if you don't have a manual then you are in over your head.
RM250racer wrote:
brass hammer straight on the crank?
yes unless it is a crank that is wrapped in Aluminum.
lumpy790
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9/5/2013 6:18pm
Measure the crank web too. Get the web right and the rest will fall into place.
lumpy790
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9/5/2013 6:20pm
before taking it apart you can scribe 3 lines about a 1/4 inch apart so you can site down the side of the crak and by looking at them you will see when its lined back up

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