a dollar and a dream

insane one
Posts
252
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2/21/2012
Location
Red Creek, NY US
Edited Date/Time 2/27/2012 2:00am
Two stroke mania. If I ever won a lotto I would fight the AMA. I would find any loop whole I could to allow the 500cc two strokes back in the outdoor series. The cost to maintain and upgrade the four strokes is crazy. The four strokes are killing the motocross sport. With this economy the way it is the privateers are struggleing just to make it to the races. You can no longer say that the 500cc is to big or even to heavy. When in fact the Service Honda CR500AF and the KX500AF is built useing the 250f chassi's. Plus they are lighter than the stock 250f' four stroke's. The cost to maintain and or upgrade these 500AF's is by far less expensive than any four stroke. Do some reasearch on the Service Honda CR500AF and the KX500AF. Or better yet maybe you know someone who has one. Do a day worth of moto's on it and before you know it you will be faster on the 500AF.
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gjbruny
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559
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1/14/2012
Location
Spokane, WA US
2/26/2012 10:04am Edited Date/Time 2/26/2012 10:06am
first off, i am a 2 stroke fan. absolutely love them and own a KTM 300XC. i also own a 4stroke and love it but for different reasons. i absolutely would love to see 2 strokes back in the mix on saturday night TV and do think, that in the right hands, it could still be competitive.

no question the power to weight on a smoker is superior to a 4t....... i don't think anyone would argue that, but on a track where traction is at a premium, smokers do have 2 things working against them in unison...... while the KTM 250SX makes similar torque and HP figures to the 450s, the way it lays it down is more violent. with power on every single downstroke, the 2 stroke wants to spin the tire all the time. on top of that, the transition from the bottom end to the top end isn't as smooth as the 4t and any lack of smoothness will cause the tire to break loose easier. spinning tires cause lost time on the tracks. while lost time may only be fractions of seconds, those fractions add up.

then to add the BRUTE power of a 500cc 2stroke (i have ridden them many times) into the mix and it would be like trying to race a drift car against a world rally car. raw HP is not the solution........ a 250/300cc 2 stroke can play and play well with the 450s in the peak hp and torque game...... but getting them to put their power to the ground as efficiently as a 450 is the problem.

having said all that, i think 2 strokes are superior in offroad especially in tight tracks where direction change and the ability to instantly explode over obstacles is at a premium.

the biggest issue is not the raw power of a 2 stroke, but the rate at which they have developed compared to the 4t. you want change....... start convincing people to only buy from the 1....... ok......... maybe 1.5 companies that are still producing and developing (leave out yamaha for the developing part) both engine types.

both engine types are good and have their strengths......... just embrace their strengths and understand their weaknesses and use them where they work best.
MxDaD324
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Mechanicsville, MD US
2/26/2012 10:14am Edited Date/Time 2/26/2012 10:14am
"loop whole" ? Woohoo
STFU Noob!!
jndmx
Posts
9659
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Location
South Kingston, RI US
2/26/2012 10:40am
MxDaD324 wrote:
"loop whole" ? Woohoo
STFU Noob!!
Yeah you know.....the entire loop.
The loop....whole.

LaughingLaughing

The Shop

insane one
Posts
252
Joined
2/21/2012
Location
Red Creek, NY US
2/26/2012 12:00pm
gjbruny wrote:
first off, i am a 2 stroke fan. absolutely love them and own a KTM 300XC. i also own a 4stroke and love it but for...
first off, i am a 2 stroke fan. absolutely love them and own a KTM 300XC. i also own a 4stroke and love it but for different reasons. i absolutely would love to see 2 strokes back in the mix on saturday night TV and do think, that in the right hands, it could still be competitive.

no question the power to weight on a smoker is superior to a 4t....... i don't think anyone would argue that, but on a track where traction is at a premium, smokers do have 2 things working against them in unison...... while the KTM 250SX makes similar torque and HP figures to the 450s, the way it lays it down is more violent. with power on every single downstroke, the 2 stroke wants to spin the tire all the time. on top of that, the transition from the bottom end to the top end isn't as smooth as the 4t and any lack of smoothness will cause the tire to break loose easier. spinning tires cause lost time on the tracks. while lost time may only be fractions of seconds, those fractions add up.

then to add the BRUTE power of a 500cc 2stroke (i have ridden them many times) into the mix and it would be like trying to race a drift car against a world rally car. raw HP is not the solution........ a 250/300cc 2 stroke can play and play well with the 450s in the peak hp and torque game...... but getting them to put their power to the ground as efficiently as a 450 is the problem.

having said all that, i think 2 strokes are superior in offroad especially in tight tracks where direction change and the ability to instantly explode over obstacles is at a premium.

the biggest issue is not the raw power of a 2 stroke, but the rate at which they have developed compared to the 4t. you want change....... start convincing people to only buy from the 1....... ok......... maybe 1.5 companies that are still producing and developing (leave out yamaha for the developing part) both engine types.

both engine types are good and have their strengths......... just embrace their strengths and understand their weaknesses and use them where they work best.
I just have to ask how soon did you upgrade your four stroke after you purchase it? How soon did you have to rebuild it? How much did you put into it the first season rideing it? If hp isn't the answer, why do you want to increase the power of any bike. I will and have let racers who wanted to test my bike ride it. I own a 2010 Service Honda CR500AF and I will let just about anyone test it. Let me tell you that everyone who has rode it loved it.. They all said they would buy one if the AMA would allow them in the 450f class. So do you want a 450f with all the power you could ever want and; handle like a 250f. Well look no further than Service Honda CR500AF....... You can be in a gear taller and roll on the power and still pull away from any four stroke.. Traction is there..
Ing
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Location
Spring Hill, FL US
2/26/2012 12:07pm
A properly tuned and developed 2-stroke with direct injection could have the power band of a tractor.
mxb2
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Bowie, MD US
2/26/2012 12:15pm
insane one wrote:
Two stroke mania. If I ever won a lotto I would fight the AMA. I would find any loop whole I could to allow the 500cc...
Two stroke mania. If I ever won a lotto I would fight the AMA. I would find any loop whole I could to allow the 500cc two strokes back in the outdoor series. The cost to maintain and upgrade the four strokes is crazy. The four strokes are killing the motocross sport. With this economy the way it is the privateers are struggleing just to make it to the races. You can no longer say that the 500cc is to big or even to heavy. When in fact the Service Honda CR500AF and the KX500AF is built useing the 250f chassi's. Plus they are lighter than the stock 250f' four stroke's. The cost to maintain and or upgrade these 500AF's is by far less expensive than any four stroke. Do some reasearch on the Service Honda CR500AF and the KX500AF. Or better yet maybe you know someone who has one. Do a day worth of moto's on it and before you know it you will be faster on the 500AF.
99% percent of the riders in the world cannot ride a stock 450 to its potential, so you want them to ride a 2 stroke 500?
newmann
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24444
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4/1/2008
Location
US
2/26/2012 12:36pm
2 smokes have always been tuned to get the most out of them. If they were looked at as four strokes are with double displacement being the "norm" then they could be tuned to deliver a broader and smoother power similar to a 4 stroke. Everybody still thinks 125/250 and 250/450 as being some sort of equal which is complete bullshit and a formula thought up by a think tank full of MORANS known affectionately as the AMA. Good first post though, you been here before??
pete24
Posts
2733
Joined
10/20/2011
Location
Marlborough, MA US
2/26/2012 2:10pm
the biggest maintanence item on a cr500 is the air filter, i
love how people say they dont put the power down and are explosive and hard to ride, ha ha people who never rode one say that,

i race a MPS modded kx500/kxf last season and it was wicked awesome!, and those are crude conversions at best, a service bike must be incredible
insane one
Posts
252
Joined
2/21/2012
Location
Red Creek, NY US
2/26/2012 5:28pm
MxDaD324 wrote:
"loop whole" ? Woohoo
STFU Noob!!
jndmx wrote:
Yeah you know.....the entire loop.
The loop....whole.

LaughingLaughing
Entire ASS WHOLEWoohoo
jndmx
Posts
9659
Joined
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Location
South Kingston, RI US
2/26/2012 5:30pm
MxDaD324 wrote:
"loop whole" ? Woohoo
STFU Noob!!
jndmx wrote:
Yeah you know.....the entire loop.
The loop....whole.

LaughingLaughing
insane one wrote:
Entire ASS WHOLEWoohoo
Exactly!!!!.....and not the first time I have heard that.

LaughingLaughing
Cancerman
Posts
756
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7/16/2011
Location
In Hell, FL US
2/26/2012 5:43pm
If I did not love my RM 250 so much, I would build my own AF500 or buy one....A flywheel weight is one of the keys to control on a powerful 2 stroke. My RM250 is a 265, with a weight. It's great. The last 500 I had was a KX500. The chassis was a couch, but the motor was great. That motor, set up right in a modern AF chassis, with the right flywheel, would be a great compromise, and cheap to maintain. All this, coming off a CRF450, which I just sold Woohoo Happy days!
Bob454
Posts
161
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1/18/2012
Location
Sweet Valley, PA US
2/26/2012 5:45pm
insane one wrote:
I just have to ask how soon did you upgrade your four stroke after you purchase it? How soon did you have to rebuild it? How...
I just have to ask how soon did you upgrade your four stroke after you purchase it? How soon did you have to rebuild it? How much did you put into it the first season rideing it? If hp isn't the answer, why do you want to increase the power of any bike. I will and have let racers who wanted to test my bike ride it. I own a 2010 Service Honda CR500AF and I will let just about anyone test it. Let me tell you that everyone who has rode it loved it.. They all said they would buy one if the AMA would allow them in the 450f class. So do you want a 450f with all the power you could ever want and; handle like a 250f. Well look no further than Service Honda CR500AF....... You can be in a gear taller and roll on the power and still pull away from any four stroke.. Traction is there..
I've had my ktm 350 for about a year now and the motor is bone stock, so 0 dollars for engine upgrades, I resprung it and added a lowering link to stiffen it up and help it settle...same as I would have done for a two stroke. I have 70 hours on it and have yet to rebuild it. When I raced a 250 2 stroke I rebuilt them every 40 hours. All I did to my bike all season was change the oil regularly, clean the air filter, replace chain and sprockets, and change tires, same as I would have done with a two stroke. I think people like you need to realize that if you shop around and look for deals parts you can maintain a 4 stroke and not completely break the bank. 2 stroke are fun but they will never come back. I have ridden 500's and I would in no way shape or form be faster on that than my 350, I have played around with lap times alot and ridden many different bikes and sizes and I am faster on my 350 hands down.
insane one
Posts
252
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2/21/2012
Location
Red Creek, NY US
2/26/2012 6:00pm
The cost of buying a Service Honda CR or KX equals out what it would cost to purchase and upgrade the four stroke.. Plus you have a bullet proof bike.. You can find used CR and KX500AF's on ebay. Or even Service Honda may have preowned ones for sale. If you were to ever purchase a new CR or KX500AF. This is all you would need to make it a perfect bike. Suspension upgrades is a must. Even though I have yet to do mine but nobody has complained about the stock set-up on it yet.. Then of course you are going to need air filters, chain and sprockets I use Sidewinders Ti-moly and the smart series chain. Oh can't forget tires I use Pirelli's they work verry well. You will not spend two or three grand just on upgrades and motor repairs. I beleive Service Honda has a preowned 2008 CR500AF for sale for 9000. Check it out..
Bob454
Posts
161
Joined
1/18/2012
Location
Sweet Valley, PA US
2/26/2012 6:03pm
insane one wrote:
The cost of buying a Service Honda CR or KX equals out what it would cost to purchase and upgrade the four stroke.. Plus you have...
The cost of buying a Service Honda CR or KX equals out what it would cost to purchase and upgrade the four stroke.. Plus you have a bullet proof bike.. You can find used CR and KX500AF's on ebay. Or even Service Honda may have preowned ones for sale. If you were to ever purchase a new CR or KX500AF. This is all you would need to make it a perfect bike. Suspension upgrades is a must. Even though I have yet to do mine but nobody has complained about the stock set-up on it yet.. Then of course you are going to need air filters, chain and sprockets I use Sidewinders Ti-moly and the smart series chain. Oh can't forget tires I use Pirelli's they work verry well. You will not spend two or three grand just on upgrades and motor repairs. I beleive Service Honda has a preowned 2008 CR500AF for sale for 9000. Check it out..
A 2008 used bike for 9k.....what a deal hahah
insane one
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252
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Location
Red Creek, NY US
2/26/2012 6:36pm
So if you think its a joke, go ahead ride one. A 2006-2012 Service Honda CR500AF. You will never understand untill you do.. Or maybe you will when you get passed and roosted by one. I am not the fastest guy out on the track but I love it when faster riders come up to me and say, Dude you pulled away from me so easy.. I would love to have Service Honda take the CR and KX500AF's to a track and have a test ride. So that people like you can ride it. Or even be on the track at the same time when they are there.. Everytime I go to our local tracks I let others test my bike. Some come back and say man I have a hard time clearing that triple with my 450f. but, with that CR500AF I had to let off so I didn't over jump it. The corners come up so much faster with the CR500AF. RIDE ONE
2/26/2012 6:49pm Edited Date/Time 2/26/2012 6:50pm
I didn't grow up riding 2 strokes. My first bike was a '84 XR80 and have had four strokes ever since. I've been racing four strokes since 2001. They make you a bit lazy as a rider, in my opinion. I say this because I decided to buy a '08 KTM 300 a couple years ago, mainly because I was racing enduro type stuff and apparently it was the cats meow. I struggled on that thing and never quite learned how to ride it. I quickly realized that 2 strokes require a lot more skill and I just didn't have the patience and ended up selling it 6 months later. I did learn a lot about clutch, throttle and braking though. Beautiful bike and a lot of fun in certain conditions, but I just don't have the 2 stroke itch.

I rode a KX 500 once and it scared the living shit out of me. That's a real man's bike.
insane one
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Red Creek, NY US
2/26/2012 7:27pm
I didn't grow up riding 2 strokes. My first bike was a '84 XR80 and have had four strokes ever since. I've been racing four strokes...
I didn't grow up riding 2 strokes. My first bike was a '84 XR80 and have had four strokes ever since. I've been racing four strokes since 2001. They make you a bit lazy as a rider, in my opinion. I say this because I decided to buy a '08 KTM 300 a couple years ago, mainly because I was racing enduro type stuff and apparently it was the cats meow. I struggled on that thing and never quite learned how to ride it. I quickly realized that 2 strokes require a lot more skill and I just didn't have the patience and ended up selling it 6 months later. I did learn a lot about clutch, throttle and braking though. Beautiful bike and a lot of fun in certain conditions, but I just don't have the 2 stroke itch.

I rode a KX 500 once and it scared the living shit out of me. That's a real man's bike.
Thats the beauty of it when it comes to the CR500AF. If you learn to roll on the power and be a gear higher. No one the same calliber rider as you will come near you. Yes you will still have to respect the power of the 500. You will need to make sure you can hold onto the bike. Even being a gear taller. Your buddies will think you advanced a class..Shocked
gjbruny
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559
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Location
Spokane, WA US
2/26/2012 9:39pm Edited Date/Time 2/26/2012 10:01pm
insane one wrote:
I just have to ask how soon did you upgrade your four stroke after you purchase it? How soon did you have to rebuild it? How...
I just have to ask how soon did you upgrade your four stroke after you purchase it? How soon did you have to rebuild it? How much did you put into it the first season rideing it? If hp isn't the answer, why do you want to increase the power of any bike. I will and have let racers who wanted to test my bike ride it. I own a 2010 Service Honda CR500AF and I will let just about anyone test it. Let me tell you that everyone who has rode it loved it.. They all said they would buy one if the AMA would allow them in the 450f class. So do you want a 450f with all the power you could ever want and; handle like a 250f. Well look no further than Service Honda CR500AF....... You can be in a gear taller and roll on the power and still pull away from any four stroke.. Traction is there..
the first modern 4 stroke i bought was an,02 YZ250f........ only thing that i ever had to do to the motor was 4 pistons and rings (high compression pistons)...... also have a slip-on silencer. now we are talking about a 10 year old bike that had the living chit flogged out of it on racetracks for the first 4 years of it's life as well as several harescrambles each year. the last 5 years, it has been a dedicated "buddy bike" as well as my endurocross bike (since i don't mind beating the hell out of it). the bike has 287 hours on it and has never had the bottom end opened up...... never any need to tough i have decided that this will be the year that i do tear into it just because i feel guilty for neglecting it. i currently have another 250F as my track bike but am seriously considering a 350 as i know that i don't have the talent to use all that a 450 (or a 250T) brings to the table but am getting too old to ring the 250Fs neck.

now i get the fact that you love your 500AF...... i get that...... i too am biased toward my 300 as probably the best all around bike i have ever owned. i truly understand the "beer goggle" effect toward your favorite bike...... but..... you are talking about race bikes where the fastest lap times are the main concern............ and i doubt very few guys, if any, are consistently faster on a 500cc 2 stroke than they are on a 250F, 250T, 350F, or 450F for an ENTIRE MOTO. not to mention the fact that the 500AFs do not have frames that were designed to work with the 500cc engine that IS A BIG DEAL.

what you are also forgetting is the fact that it is easier to go faster on the track with a 4stroke than a 2t for the average joe.

again, i'd love to see 2t back in the mix in the big leagues...... i really would and i truly think that guys like chad reed, who have the talent on a 2t and have raced those bikes at the highest level would still be competitive with the 4strokes...... but i would imagine it would be on a smaller displacement than a 500. jmo

also, jumping on a bike for a few laps, even if hot-laps, with a big ultra powerful engine will get glowing remarks from your buddies......... but.......... it is much much different than running an entire moto....... that and the fact that there was not stop-watch involved. try it against any smaller displacement bike and a way to keep accurate lap time and get back to us with your findings. unless your last name is of the likes of "ward" or "johnson", i would imagine that you will be faster with A LOT less bike (again, i am talking about for a full race, not a few laps). the desired end result of racing is winning........ not pulling up to the line to feed a case of "small man's complex" with the biggest engine.
drmarkr
Posts
3211
Joined
8/21/2006
Location
Tucson, AZ US
2/26/2012 9:48pm
Fuck I miss Motodrive......
gjbruny
Posts
559
Joined
1/14/2012
Location
Spokane, WA US
2/26/2012 10:12pm Edited Date/Time 2/26/2012 10:14pm
forgot to mention........ while the 4strokes may have killed the 250 and 125 2strokes in pro racing...... the 500 died on its own about 5 years or so before the first modern 4 stroke engine came onto the pro scene. the 4 strokes had absolutely NOTHING to do with the 500cc 2 strokes fading away.
CR500Rider
Posts
1272
Joined
4/4/2008
Location
San Antonio, TX US
2/26/2012 10:51pm
gjbruny wrote:
forgot to mention........ while the 4strokes may have killed the 250 and 125 2strokes in pro racing...... the 500 died on its own about 5 years...
forgot to mention........ while the 4strokes may have killed the 250 and 125 2strokes in pro racing...... the 500 died on its own about 5 years or so before the first modern 4 stroke engine came onto the pro scene. the 4 strokes had absolutely NOTHING to do with the 500cc 2 strokes fading away.
The 500 didn't die on it's own, it was murdered by 2 manufacturers (one who didn't even make a 500 and the other never got past air cooling) while the other 2 sat and did nothing. What is kind of funny is the last year of the CR500 was 01'. Want to guess which big bore (but legal in the 250 class) 4 stroke was introduced in 02'. Great, 500 weight with less HP and Torque. People get too caught up on HP numbers when they should be looking at torque numbers. The CR500 has more torque than a CRF450, regardless of what mods you do to the 4 stroke. Ride the 500 correctly and it will out pull a 450 like the 450 has an anchor hooked to it. Ride it incorrectly and it's the most brutal ditch digging machine you'll ever straddle. Anyone who says a big bore 2 stroke is hard to ride has never ridden one...............correctly.
insane one
Posts
252
Joined
2/21/2012
Location
Red Creek, NY US
2/27/2012 2:00am
gjbruny, first off let me say that most of the guys I let test my bike was durring a race. Not just two or three laps.. For those who rode it durring a practice wanted to continue to ride after the flag.. Yes I love my bike!! I am just spedding the word that there is faster and more reliable bikes other than four strokes.. Hell, I have had other riders come up to me and say, man I never heard you comeing not until you roosted by me.. Even a steel chassi CR500 is still capable of being just as fun to ride. I owned three of them aswell.. Just find one and ride it .Then tell me what you think. Give youself a chance to get used to the bike. Check out Trans World mx read what they had said about the bike.Whistling

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