Zero-emission doesn't mean it has to be an electric motorcycle

Sierra Ranger
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Sierra Ranger
Edited Date/Time 12/1/2020 8:01pm
Random thought tonight: an internal combustion engine could burn hydrogen or many other substances and produce carbon-free emissions (burning hydrogen creates H2O). It doesn't have to be an electric engine to comply with zero-emission mandates (electric changes the entire nature of the machine and sport).
The conversion to ZEV doesn't have to mean elimination of internal combustion engines. Someone call Elon Musk.
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Yeti831
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Yeti831 11/30/2020 11:14pm
11/30/2020 11:14pm
Sierra Ranger wrote:
Random thought tonight: an internal combustion engine could burn hydrogen or many other substances and produce carbon-free emissions (burning hydrogen creates H2O). It doesn't have to...
Random thought tonight: an internal combustion engine could burn hydrogen or many other substances and produce carbon-free emissions (burning hydrogen creates H2O). It doesn't have to be an electric engine to comply with zero-emission mandates (electric changes the entire nature of the machine and sport).
The conversion to ZEV doesn't have to mean elimination of internal combustion engines. Someone call Elon Musk.
I’m honestly surprised the focus has been more on electric than hydrogen.

I thought 10 years ago it would take off but then went stale.

It’d be pretty damn complex to implement a hydrogen system onto a motocross bike though.
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kyle173
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kyle173 12/1/2020 12:32am
12/1/2020 12:32am
I think you will find storage transport and production of hydrogen isn't easy. If u have a leak on your fuel tank of a dirtbike you will be horribly burnt. Hydrogen will disappear and only be used in things like rockets etc.
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luke11
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luke11 12/1/2020 1:34am
12/1/2020 1:34am
Hydrogen is the answer but as kyle173 has stated, the issue is not how to use it as fuel but how to store it and transport it safely. If it wasn’t for that we’d all be using hydrogen now.
Pink
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Pink 12/1/2020 3:00am
12/1/2020 3:00am
There is already a high performance, zero emissions fuel. You don’t even have to make any changes to your motor. Just pour it in, and it burns completely clean.
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Last Braaap
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Last Braaap 12/1/2020 3:18am
12/1/2020 3:18am Edited Date/Time 12/1/2020 3:19am
Pink wrote:
There is already a high performance, zero emissions fuel. You don’t even have to make any changes to your motor. Just pour it in, and it...
There is already a high performance, zero emissions fuel. You don’t even have to make any changes to your motor. Just pour it in, and it burns completely clean.
Personally not convinced.

They skimmed over one very crutial part.
HOW DO YOU EXTRACT CARBON FROM CO2? CO2 by itself is pretty happy to stick in its form (if i'm not mistaken). How much electricity you consume to produce the oil? The fan on the top of that building does not rotate due to the goodwill of all ecofascist on the earth, i assume.

It is "easy" to make basically anything from anything but you need to account all the energy you need for transport & transformation of stuff. Not speaking about that the production of electricity around the world is not green by any means.
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Gordon Liddy 12/1/2020 4:14am
12/1/2020 4:14am
There is no such thing as zero emissions. I saw a Tesla the other day with a Zero Emissions license plate on the front. No moron. The power plant 15 miles from here is shoveling coal in to burner to make electricity to charge your batteries.
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Johnny Ringo
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Johnny Ringo 12/1/2020 5:35am
12/1/2020 5:35am
Question: why do we care? Do dirtbikes contribute to even a fraction of a percent of the worlds emissions?
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Gordon Liddy 12/1/2020 5:44am
12/1/2020 5:44am
Johnny Ringo wrote:
Question: why do we care? Do dirtbikes contribute to even a fraction of a percent of the worlds emissions?
They probably contribute .00000000000001%
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resetjet
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resetjet 12/1/2020 6:04am
12/1/2020 6:04am
Still a way away but the only viable solution. Electric is a joke.

There are four basic issues regarding hydrogen-fueled engines and vehicles: engine backfire and susceptibility of hydrogen to surface ignition, somewhat reduced engine power, high nitric oxide (NOx) emissions, and the problem of on-board storage of the fuel and safety. Although partial solutions have been found to most of these problems, there still is no general consensus of the best method to finally resolve all of these issues.
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resetjet
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resetjet 12/1/2020 6:08am
12/1/2020 6:08am
Gordon Liddy wrote:
There is no such thing as zero emissions. I saw a Tesla the other day with a Zero Emissions license plate on the front. No moron...
There is no such thing as zero emissions. I saw a Tesla the other day with a Zero Emissions license plate on the front. No moron. The power plant 15 miles from here is shoveling coal in to burner to make electricity to charge your batteries.
Tell him hey nice coal fired car.....they dont like that.
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endurox
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endurox 12/1/2020 6:26am
12/1/2020 6:26am
The Law of Thermodynamics
"Energy can not be created or destroyed". The amount of energy expended to create a zero emission should be factored in. But that would require some common sense of which the governments around the world are short of.
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stone881
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stone881 12/1/2020 6:27am
12/1/2020 6:27am
I have seen positive results adding an HHO to ICE motors. They run much cleaner, adds a bit of power, and more efficient. The engineer who built the system, an Indonesian guy, was building small systems to add to motorcycles as well. Of course this application wasn't to eliminate the ICE motor completely, and isn't for MX bikes, but it did work as intended.
HondaFan33
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HondaFan33 12/1/2020 6:38am
12/1/2020 6:38am
Gordon Liddy wrote:
There is no such thing as zero emissions. I saw a Tesla the other day with a Zero Emissions license plate on the front. No moron...
There is no such thing as zero emissions. I saw a Tesla the other day with a Zero Emissions license plate on the front. No moron. The power plant 15 miles from here is shoveling coal in to burner to make electricity to charge your batteries.
Very true. Even more so they emit in other ways. Such as brake dust! Can never escape it all!
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Skerby 12/1/2020 7:36am
12/1/2020 7:36am
I remember a push for hydrogen cars in california like 15 years ago. Arnold was driving a hydrogen suburban around, I think more than half of the interior was used for a fuel cell.
kb228
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kb228 12/1/2020 7:56am
12/1/2020 7:56am
Gordon Liddy wrote:
There is no such thing as zero emissions. I saw a Tesla the other day with a Zero Emissions license plate on the front. No moron...
There is no such thing as zero emissions. I saw a Tesla the other day with a Zero Emissions license plate on the front. No moron. The power plant 15 miles from here is shoveling coal in to burner to make electricity to charge your batteries.
While youre technically correct, the zero emissions means from the car itself. Before you had power plant emissions and fuel emissions. Because you eliminate the fuel emissions from the car that is what makes it zero. The powerplants are running no matter what. That being said its impossible to convert energy without hazardous waste or emissions anyway. we can reduce emissions into the atmosphere but we will then have hazardous waste problems later on with piles of batteries and nuclear waste. Hopefully theres a way to recycle it or shoot it off into space.
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early
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early 12/1/2020 8:08am
12/1/2020 8:08am Edited Date/Time 12/1/2020 8:10am
Electric motors and batteries have more benefits than just tailpipe emissions. Reduced sound, reduced part counts, control over power delivery, flexibility of packaging are all attractive aspects when it comes to designing and building a bike or car. In addition there are lots and lots of other applications for advanced battery technology.

There are some low pressure hydrogen matrix technologies that could be game changers, but nothing on a proof of concept scale.
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BobPA
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BobPA 12/1/2020 9:31am
12/1/2020 9:31am
early wrote:
Electric motors and batteries have more benefits than just tailpipe emissions. Reduced sound, reduced part counts, control over power delivery, flexibility of packaging are all attractive...
Electric motors and batteries have more benefits than just tailpipe emissions. Reduced sound, reduced part counts, control over power delivery, flexibility of packaging are all attractive aspects when it comes to designing and building a bike or car. In addition there are lots and lots of other applications for advanced battery technology.

There are some low pressure hydrogen matrix technologies that could be game changers, but nothing on a proof of concept scale.
You ever see someone try and fix a crashed Tesla? Your reduced parts count theory will go right out the window....
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early
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early 12/1/2020 9:36am
12/1/2020 9:36am
BobPA wrote:
You ever see someone try and fix a crashed Tesla? Your reduced parts count theory will go right out the window....
You think any manufacturer cares how hard it is to fix a wrecked vehicle?
Dirty Points 12/1/2020 9:40am
12/1/2020 9:40am
early wrote:
Electric motors and batteries have more benefits than just tailpipe emissions. Reduced sound, reduced part counts, control over power delivery, flexibility of packaging are all attractive...
Electric motors and batteries have more benefits than just tailpipe emissions. Reduced sound, reduced part counts, control over power delivery, flexibility of packaging are all attractive aspects when it comes to designing and building a bike or car. In addition there are lots and lots of other applications for advanced battery technology.

There are some low pressure hydrogen matrix technologies that could be game changers, but nothing on a proof of concept scale.
BobPA wrote:
You ever see someone try and fix a crashed Tesla? Your reduced parts count theory will go right out the window....
That has everything to do with Tesla still maturing as a manufacturer of luxury cars, moreso than electric technology itself, though.
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godog 12/1/2020 10:13am
12/1/2020 10:13am
I'm employed in the hydrogen industry regarding testing and certification of all related components for transportation applications. The company I work for has tested complete hydrogen fuel cell systems for 3 Japanese motorcycle manufacturers. The systems were integrated into a small scooter design and were not prototypes these things were production units. The technology is solid but the infrastructure (north America) is a ways behind. In the past 15 years there has been a dribbling of money spent for promotion and infrastructure which has been wasted by bureaucrats and moronic engineering which hasn't done the industry any justice. Currently the company I work for does almost no work for any north American companies and is mostly testing for the Korean ,Japanese and continental European markets.
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Yeti831
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Yeti831 12/1/2020 10:16am
12/1/2020 10:16am
Johnny Ringo wrote:
Question: why do we care? Do dirtbikes contribute to even a fraction of a percent of the worlds emissions?
Well, China and India alone contribute 95% of the world’s ocean waste. Hasn’t stopped the snobby EU do gooders from shitting on the USA about it.

Just saying, actual pollution stats don’t matter to those psychos. Perception is everything to them.
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Sierra Ranger
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Sierra Ranger 12/1/2020 10:41am
12/1/2020 10:41am
Johnny Ringo wrote:
Question: why do we care? Do dirtbikes contribute to even a fraction of a percent of the worlds emissions?
Gruesome Newsom has already enacted a ban on internal combustion engines beginning in 2035 (off-road engines too).
If the entire state of California produced no carbon emissions, it would decrease global emissions by 1 percent. But we're going to spend billions to get there, in the hopes that others follow, I guess.
Dirty Points 12/1/2020 11:25am
12/1/2020 11:25am
FWIW, the hydrogen cells most are referring to in this thread (not the op) are still to power electric vehicles. They are just a different storage methodology than batteries.
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APLMAN99
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APLMAN99 12/1/2020 11:56am
12/1/2020 11:56am
godog wrote:
I'm employed in the hydrogen industry regarding testing and certification of all related components for transportation applications. The company I work for has tested complete hydrogen...
I'm employed in the hydrogen industry regarding testing and certification of all related components for transportation applications. The company I work for has tested complete hydrogen fuel cell systems for 3 Japanese motorcycle manufacturers. The systems were integrated into a small scooter design and were not prototypes these things were production units. The technology is solid but the infrastructure (north America) is a ways behind. In the past 15 years there has been a dribbling of money spent for promotion and infrastructure which has been wasted by bureaucrats and moronic engineering which hasn't done the industry any justice. Currently the company I work for does almost no work for any north American companies and is mostly testing for the Korean ,Japanese and continental European markets.
Where are these production units for sale? Sounds interesting.
godog
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godog 12/1/2020 12:09pm
12/1/2020 12:09pm
Most of the units aren't currently for sale they were planned for the 2022 model year. Many of them were to be unveiled and used at the 2020 Olympics in Japan.
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BobPA
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BobPA 12/1/2020 12:51pm
12/1/2020 12:51pm
BobPA wrote:
You ever see someone try and fix a crashed Tesla? Your reduced parts count theory will go right out the window....
early wrote:
You think any manufacturer cares how hard it is to fix a wrecked vehicle?
Sorry, that was not really my point. I was more referring to the complicated mess that electric vehicle powertrains consist of. It ain't just and electric motor and a battery running the vehicle. I am just pointing out that a "reduced parts count' is just a pipe dream for todays vehicles.
Dirty Points 12/1/2020 1:23pm
12/1/2020 1:23pm Edited Date/Time 12/1/2020 2:25pm
BobPA wrote:
You ever see someone try and fix a crashed Tesla? Your reduced parts count theory will go right out the window....
early wrote:
You think any manufacturer cares how hard it is to fix a wrecked vehicle?
BobPA wrote:
Sorry, that was not really my point. I was more referring to the complicated mess that electric vehicle powertrains consist of. It ain't just and electric...
Sorry, that was not really my point. I was more referring to the complicated mess that electric vehicle powertrains consist of. It ain't just and electric motor and a battery running the vehicle. I am just pointing out that a "reduced parts count' is just a pipe dream for todays vehicles.
As I mentioned, a lot of this issue is Tesla-specific, as they are kind of neophyte to car manufacturing and very vertically integrated compared to most automobile manufacturers. These aren't electric vehicle issues. They are new manufacturer with explosive growth making all new designs from-the-ground-up issues. Tesla is improving, but they are still behind many brands on a lot of these manufacturing elements.

Take a look at Munro's Youtube. They are an engineering consultant working with Tesla, and have complete teardowns on there of every Tesla model. The goal is reducing the unique part count and accompanying complexity that Tesla is incurring. This is a goal that most manufacturers have honed in their process over decades, but Tesla, being so new with no historical parts bin to pull from, definitely has competing engineering elements (down to stuff as simple one team may build a component with one fastener type, while a separate component uses a similar-functioned but different one)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Br9luPS5VsE&list=PLkiDlGyJnprdFftxAZ85a…

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