Your ideal SX format?

early wrote:

There's alot of debate about the strengths and weeknesses of the traditional format and the triple crown format. If you had the keys to the kingdom what would your SX series look like? Here's my idea.

SX1: 450 max 2 or 4 stroke, electric of any capacity. No homologation rules.

SX2: Basically the 250 class we have now but not regional. Homologation rules as they are.

SX3: Feeder class split into West, Central, East Division (5 rounds each) with showdown at final round. 250 4 stroke limited, 150 2 stroke limited. 4 stroke rules: Spec tire, 14k rpm limit, VP C9 spec fuel (94 octane), stock suspension outers, stock exhaust, homologation with $9k MSRP increasing 3% per year. 2 stroke rules: 155 max displacement, spec tire, VP C12 spec fuel, stock suspension outers, homologation with $9k MSRP increasing 3% per year.

Daytime program:
Free practice: SX1, SX2, SX3
Timed qualifying 1: SX1, SX2, SX3
Qualifying races: SX3
Timed qualifying 2: SX1, SX2
LCQ races: SX3, SX2, SX1

Night show: all races 15 minutes +1 lap
SX2 Moto 1
SX1 Moto 1
Halftime
SX3 Main
SX2 Moto 2
SX1 Moto 2

I know the single main event format in SX is historic but the qualifying process during the night show is just not interesting. This unifies the race format between SX and MX and also simplifies the night show by having all the races the same length. Olympic scoring for the motos with points paid for overall finish.

This format is more of an all day event. The day program is more important with SX3 qualifying races and lcqs for all classes. This can be streamed to increase value of the subscription, with the night show streamed and broadcast. Also puts more people in the seats buying concessions during the day. It's likely the night program could be shortened up a little bit.

SX1 and SX2 allows for 2 man factory teams like we have now but SX3 allows for greater separation and less importance of the feeder class than we have now. I don't think a straight 125 class for supercross would really work very well. The 125 engine characteristic makes racing SX with it almost a specialty not really a great way to learn and feed into the 250 class. SX3 is the best way I see to limit the feeder class mechanically.

What are your ideas for ideal format?

Edit: an alternative could look like this, race day would be the same basically.
SX1: unlimited 250 4 stroke
SX2: same as SX 3 listed above, limited 250 4 stroke, limited 150 2 stroke.
SX3: limited 125 2 stroke, basically the same as the 150 rules but for 125s only. 2 or 3 regions.
The problem with this is that I don't think it's a good idea to combine full mod 4 stroke, 2 stroke and electric bikes with a 250cc cap, you will end up with 1 platform dominating and manufacturers giving up.

I like it. I think three are too many. I might have a slight difference in length on the 250 and 450 mains though.

I like the 2 moto format you listed. Hell i dont even mind the 3 moto format.

I dont think a 3rd class should be included. The average viewer wants to watch the stars of the sport race. Period. Average viewers do not care about any LCQ, or amateurs/sx3 class.

Show the LCQ highlights in filler segments.

Thats not what more “core” people want to see. But appealing to the masses is how the sport grows.

I would have to put more thought in but just for a quick answer,
I would Like to see a 2 moto Format tried, 2. Fifteen minute moto's sounds good.
I like the idea of having all the Fastest guys on the track in all the races.
To take that a step further i would also like there to be some experimenting done with starts, im not saying i have the solution, but maybe there are ideas's out there that havent even been tried or even though of yet , maybe there are different ways a gate could be made.
Or try doing a lap side by side? Racked up in order of Qualifying like nascar, put a stripe down in the middle of the start straight do a slow lap and they cant drop the hammer until there from tire crosses the line.
With the idea being all the fast guys start together and race each other, so there isnt so much emphasis on starts.
Usually keys to the race #1 Get a good Start.
Just a thought.
Another in my perfect Scenario us definitely to include LCQ in night show or Eliminate them if they arent gonna be
In the show and go by Qualifying time.
And i would Really Like to see 125 or 85 included or Maybe
6 Round series of each.
If 125 i would prefer no age limit if RC or James or Mike Brown or Villopoto.
Want to come race The kids so be it.
Also Put up some prize money , i got a sneaky suspicion that finding sponsors for a 6 round 125 supercross series.
Run during the night show would have No trouble finding sponsors, and if there was decent prize money,
Pro's that didnt make it into the night show in the other classes, could and should be allowed to Race it.

Oh and for the 125 class make the Bike's run off the shelf parts only, or else its just gonna turn into who has the fastest bike, set some production rules from day 1 before it even gets to that,
Is the point of a race to see who spends the most on a bike ?

1 pro class. 450cc only. 40 rider gate. 1 race. 45 + 2 laps.

Frank wrote:

1 pro class. 450cc only. 40 rider gate. 1 race. 45 + 2 laps.

In a 45 minute race they may as well Run it on foot,
Because its just an ironman at that point, whoever's in the best shape wins period

Frank wrote:

1 pro class. 450cc only. 40 rider gate. 1 race. 45 + 2 laps.

40 rider gate?!? Indoors? That would just look silly....

Sx1 class 250cc and open (elect.) regardless of engine configuration.
Sx2 class 150cc regardless of engine configuration.
Regional class 125cc regardless of engine configuration. East and west series.
12 rounds, 2 moto format for Sx1 and Sx2 classes and 1 moto for regional class.

2 classes

- 250cc (2/4 stroke) stock (minus suspension)
- run what you brung.

2 heats each
1 20 lap main

Pretty good OP. I love the open class and the feeder classes.

I liked the Heat-Semi-LCQ-Main format. I liked getting to see those second-tier guys up front in the Semis. But how about adding points to the Heat and Semi races to make them more meaningful?

Off the top of my head:

First in the heat is 8 points, second is 7 points, third is 6 points, fourth is 5 points.
First in the semi is 4 points, then 3, 2, 1.

No points for LCQ.

*Open Class

*125 2t 18yr old max Class rider limited to 3 races per year and a final

3 motos each class with Championship points paid per moto. (5 throwaway races per season or 15 motos)

OP, I think you nailed it. I would love to see that format for a year or three and see how it goes.

If there were no 450’s and 250f was the fastest bike, could you imagine the battles we would have had. So many guys didn’t do well in the move to 450’s, if they were all bunched up in the same lower displacement class the racing would be better.

Canard
RV
Dungey
Townley
Pourcell
J-Law
JS
Millsaps
Barcia
Davalos(ha)
Josh grant



Many of these guys would have raced together and were all pushing the speed limit.

I think there are all good replies here and I would agree that it is worth trying some new things.

I have some ideas, some are realistic, some not so much, but I don't mind putting some thoughts down..

==============================

Rule #1 Keep the fans engaged.
Supercross is a spectator sport.
Fans want to be entertained all day.
The pit activities do a good job with Freestyle, street stunt shows, Vans BMX dirt jumps, and some of the hands-on demos Toyota, JGR, and Milestone provides.
Inside the stadium entertainment is lackluster and downtime is frequent and the racing is the only form of entertainment. More exhibitions can be added to supplement the racing and the racing format tweaked to keep the fans in their seats.
• Durring downtime, do freestyle/whip demos, bring in Axell and hit the quarter pipe on the sidelines, have E-bike races
• KTM Juniors race at every round
• Put more stake in qualifiers – award a small amount of points for qualifying position
• Put more variables in the outcome for the “overall winner” – via multi-moto format (explore 2-moto and more triple crown formats)
• Engage the fans directly on their mobile devices. – “Vote for your winner” before the main. (Monster Jam does mobile voting for Freestyle and 2 Wheel skills events) – award a Point to the winner of the race if the fans pick correctly.
• For opening ceremonies introduce the riders in the form of a hot lap (Arenacross did this)
• Allow the winner to take a victory lap – throw a nac-nac over the triples, toss their googles to the fans, be pumped up. Don’t fist bump your buddies then ride straight over to the podium.
• *cough* 2 strokes sound better and smell for spectators (hearing Pastrana going through Daytona whoops is something that can’t be topped)


Rule #2 Make the racing exciting all the way to the finish
How often is the last half of the race boring because the winner got the holeshot and has a good lead halfway through?
• Give potential for a lead change – via a Joker lane (which should generally be a FASTER option)
• Give a point for each pass a rider makes forward
• Try the staggered start for the actual start at some rounds
• Try stacked start (2 rows of 9 – ala Arenacross style) at some rounds
• Do a random draw/flip a coin before the start for an inverted qualifying gate pick order
• Go back to dirt starts
• *cough* there where more passes when 2 strokes were raced and riders couldn’t do every obstacle every lap consistently which created more “Banjo Racing” (thanks Blake Baggett for that term)


Rule #3 Make the championship exciting for the last round
I know most scenarios wouldn’t change the championship outcome, but it’s all about the 1-in-a-million chance
“So you’re telling me there’s a chance?!”
• Award superlative points for:
o Fastest qualifier
o Holeshot
o Passes forward
o Fan votes
o Fastest lap in the main(s)
o Most laps lead
• Drop worst finish
• Have a double points round or multiple rounds


Rule #4
Challenge the riders (safely)
Make the tracks memorable and unique
• Credit where credit is due - This years’ tracks are very well designed
• Vegas, Daytona, LA coliseum, Tampa 2018 (sand), Bercy (tunnels) etc all stand out because they are unique an challenge the riders because they are outside the norm
• Atlanta 2017 had a wall into the sand – some riders rolled out, some riders sent it.
• Atlanta 2010 had an 85ft quad
• More split lanes
• More split elevation corners
• Steeper transitions
• “NEVER” DO 90 DEGREE CORNERS
• More rider designed tracks (Pastrana’s St. Louis had all unique obstacles – vertical berms, triple dragonbacks, elevated step-on/offs
• Put a steep jump or wall 10 feet out of the gate
• Do more 270 turns under a tunnel – try an off-camber version
• *cough* 2 strokes took more skill and challenged riders more (from a fan’s perspective)


Rule #5
Increase Supercross’s exposure and understanding to a casual fan
(make it easy to view and engage young audience – hand’s on where possible)
• Credit where credit is due – The NBC + NBCGold is better than Fox Sports 1
• Kawasaki’s “Science of Supercross” is the best non-race segment ever
• Don’t change the access to live broadcast, but do a condensed re-air the next day. 1 hour long, just qualifying highlights and the mains.
• Put Weege on TV
• Do more pre-race analysis and rider biopics – Do a “Day in the life” type segment that shows what they do outside of racing and training, as wells as their testing, training, eating, and race prep.
• Highlight a local track or riding club – do an “In your community” type segment to replace Makeup to Mud
• Highlight an “Industry job” – mechanic, truck driver, photographer, track crew member, broadcast team member, etc. Show that there is a career for those interested in science, tv, construction, transport, media, logistics, and entertainment.
• Make everything mobile-friendly in a singular “Supercross” app. (I know there are multiple other apps that do this) It’s more that making sure your website is formatted for mobile - provide rider profiles, points standings, Real-time racing timing and results, voting, social check-ins, Snap Maps for each round, on-site virtual scavenger hunt (take a pic of Kawasaki rig, take a picture of a fire ball, take a picture with a handful of dirt, etc etc)
• Build a mock triple, or finish, or whoops in the pits - allow fans to climb all over it. Allow them to handle a tough block.
• Do a “test your start gate reaction time” demo. – Either use a real gate and run to a button press, or use a touch screen and do a virtual version – give a prize to top reaction times
• Put a sand pit or table in the pits for the kids under 10 – let them build a track in sand or space sand.

Rule #6
Support the sport. Be positive.
You, as a fan who already knows the sport, be a good example.
Do your part to introduce the sport to new fans. Go to the race not just to see who wins, but to engage yourself in the professional side of the sport. Tell riders “good luck” when you see them in an air port. “Like” their posts when they reveal their drift car hobbies on Instagram. Tell the mechanics, the truck drivers, the track crew, the security guard and parking attendees how excited and happy you are to have them in your city for Supercross.
Don’t bash the riders and don’t attack riders (online) when they have a bad race day. Likewise, if a rider is more quiet/out of the spot light, don’t assume they have something to hide or hate their fans.
Understand that the industry is made up of fans like you. Some folks sacrifice their lives a great deal and are doing the best they can.
Everyone has good intentions and if something new comes along that breaks tradition, it is an attempt to improve the sport in some way.
I guess what I'm saying is that, in some aspects, the biggest thing that needs to change with the sport are the attitudes of the people who claim they are fans.
This world is turning more and more negative (or maybe we are just exposed to negative people more often), so enjoy the sport for what it is have FUN riding and watching dirt bike races!

Outdoor natural terrain. 3x45 min. motos.

bama205 wrote:

If there were no 450’s and 250f was the fastest bike, could you imagine the battles we would have had. So many guys didn’t do well in the move to 450’s, if they were all bunched up in the same lower displacement class the racing would be better.

Canard
RV
Dungey
Townley
Pourcell
J-Law
JS
Millsaps
Barcia
Davalos(ha)
Josh grant



Many of these guys would have raced together and were all pushing the speed limit.

Your assuming that a lot of people wouldn't be eliminated after the start, bad assumption on a 250f for a heavy guy.

MX45 wrote:

I think there are all good replies here and I would agree that it is worth trying some new things.

I have some ideas, some are realistic, some not so much, but I don't mind putting some thoughts down..

==============================

Rule #1 Keep the fans engaged.
Supercross is a spectator sport.
Fans want to be entertained all day.
The pit activities do a good job with Freestyle, street stunt shows, Vans BMX dirt jumps, and some of the hands-on demos Toyota, JGR, and Milestone provides.
Inside the stadium entertainment is lackluster and downtime is frequent and the racing is the only form of entertainment. More exhibitions can be added to supplement the racing and the racing format tweaked to keep the fans in their seats.
• Durring downtime, do freestyle/whip demos, bring in Axell and hit the quarter pipe on the sidelines, have E-bike races
• KTM Juniors race at every round
• Put more stake in qualifiers – award a small amount of points for qualifying position
• Put more variables in the outcome for the “overall winner” – via multi-moto format (explore 2-moto and more triple crown formats)
• Engage the fans directly on their mobile devices. – “Vote for your winner” before the main. (Monster Jam does mobile voting for Freestyle and 2 Wheel skills events) – award a Point to the winner of the race if the fans pick correctly.
• For opening ceremonies introduce the riders in the form of a hot lap (Arenacross did this)
• Allow the winner to take a victory lap – throw a nac-nac over the triples, toss their googles to the fans, be pumped up. Don’t fist bump your buddies then ride straight over to the podium.
• *cough* 2 strokes sound better and smell for spectators (hearing Pastrana going through Daytona whoops is something that can’t be topped)


Rule #2 Make the racing exciting all the way to the finish
How often is the last half of the race boring because the winner got the holeshot and has a good lead halfway through?
• Give potential for a lead change – via a Joker lane (which should generally be a FASTER option)
• Give a point for each pass a rider makes forward
• Try the staggered start for the actual start at some rounds
• Try stacked start (2 rows of 9 – ala Arenacross style) at some rounds
• Do a random draw/flip a coin before the start for an inverted qualifying gate pick order
• Go back to dirt starts
• *cough* there where more passes when 2 strokes were raced and riders couldn’t do every obstacle every lap consistently which created more “Banjo Racing” (thanks Blake Baggett for that term)


Rule #3 Make the championship exciting for the last round
I know most scenarios wouldn’t change the championship outcome, but it’s all about the 1-in-a-million chance
“So you’re telling me there’s a chance?!”
• Award superlative points for:
o Fastest qualifier
o Holeshot
o Passes forward
o Fan votes
o Fastest lap in the main(s)
o Most laps lead
• Drop worst finish
• Have a double points round or multiple rounds


Rule #4
Challenge the riders (safely)
Make the tracks memorable and unique
• Credit where credit is due - This years’ tracks are very well designed
• Vegas, Daytona, LA coliseum, Tampa 2018 (sand), Bercy (tunnels) etc all stand out because they are unique an challenge the riders because they are outside the norm
• Atlanta 2017 had a wall into the sand – some riders rolled out, some riders sent it.
• Atlanta 2010 had an 85ft quad
• More split lanes
• More split elevation corners
• Steeper transitions
• “NEVER” DO 90 DEGREE CORNERS
• More rider designed tracks (Pastrana’s St. Louis had all unique obstacles – vertical berms, triple dragonbacks, elevated step-on/offs
• Put a steep jump or wall 10 feet out of the gate
• Do more 270 turns under a tunnel – try an off-camber version
• *cough* 2 strokes took more skill and challenged riders more (from a fan’s perspective)


Rule #5
Increase Supercross’s exposure and understanding to a casual fan
(make it easy to view and engage young audience – hand’s on where possible)
• Credit where credit is due – The NBC + NBCGold is better than Fox Sports 1
• Kawasaki’s “Science of Supercross” is the best non-race segment ever
• Don’t change the access to live broadcast, but do a condensed re-air the next day. 1 hour long, just qualifying highlights and the mains.
• Put Weege on TV
• Do more pre-race analysis and rider biopics – Do a “Day in the life” type segment that shows what they do outside of racing and training, as wells as their testing, training, eating, and race prep.
• Highlight a local track or riding club – do an “In your community” type segment to replace Makeup to Mud
• Highlight an “Industry job” – mechanic, truck driver, photographer, track crew member, broadcast team member, etc. Show that there is a career for those interested in science, tv, construction, transport, media, logistics, and entertainment.
• Make everything mobile-friendly in a singular “Supercross” app. (I know there are multiple other apps that do this) It’s more that making sure your website is formatted for mobile - provide rider profiles, points standings, Real-time racing timing and results, voting, social check-ins, Snap Maps for each round, on-site virtual scavenger hunt (take a pic of Kawasaki rig, take a picture of a fire ball, take a picture with a handful of dirt, etc etc)
• Build a mock triple, or finish, or whoops in the pits - allow fans to climb all over it. Allow them to handle a tough block.
• Do a “test your start gate reaction time” demo. – Either use a real gate and run to a button press, or use a touch screen and do a virtual version – give a prize to top reaction times
• Put a sand pit or table in the pits for the kids under 10 – let them build a track in sand or space sand.

Rule #6
Support the sport. Be positive.
You, as a fan who already knows the sport, be a good example.
Do your part to introduce the sport to new fans. Go to the race not just to see who wins, but to engage yourself in the professional side of the sport. Tell riders “good luck” when you see them in an air port. “Like” their posts when they reveal their drift car hobbies on Instagram. Tell the mechanics, the truck drivers, the track crew, the security guard and parking attendees how excited and happy you are to have them in your city for Supercross.
Don’t bash the riders and don’t attack riders (online) when they have a bad race day. Likewise, if a rider is more quiet/out of the spot light, don’t assume they have something to hide or hate their fans.
Understand that the industry is made up of fans like you. Some folks sacrifice their lives a great deal and are doing the best they can.
Everyone has good intentions and if something new comes along that breaks tradition, it is an attempt to improve the sport in some way.
I guess what I'm saying is that, in some aspects, the biggest thing that needs to change with the sport are the attitudes of the people who claim they are fans.
This world is turning more and more negative (or maybe we are just exposed to negative people more often), so enjoy the sport for what it is have FUN riding and watching dirt bike races!

bama205 wrote:

If there were no 450’s and 250f was the fastest bike, could you imagine the battles we would have had. So many guys didn’t do well in the move to 450’s, if they were all bunched up in the same lower displacement class the racing would be better.

Canard
RV
Dungey
Townley
Pourcell
J-Law
JS
Millsaps
Barcia
Davalos(ha)
Josh grant



Many of these guys would have raced together and were all pushing the speed limit.

Johnny Depp wrote:

Your assuming that a lot of people wouldn't be eliminated after the start, bad assumption on a 250f for a heavy guy.

What

bama205 wrote:

If there were no 450’s and 250f was the fastest bike, could you imagine the battles we would have had. So many guys didn’t do well in the move to 450’s, if they were all bunched up in the same lower displacement class the racing would be better.

Canard
RV
Dungey
Townley
Pourcell
J-Law
JS
Millsaps
Barcia
Davalos(ha)
Josh grant



Many of these guys would have raced together and were all pushing the speed limit.

Johnny Depp wrote:

Your assuming that a lot of people wouldn't be eliminated after the start, bad assumption on a 250f for a heavy guy.

bama205 wrote:

What

I think he is meaning that on a 250f bigger guys would be at a disadvantage on starts.

I'm a big fan of the triple crown. Like it or not, supercross is a "show". All the stars in every race = $. When I go to a race, I'm "paying" to see Eli, Marvin and Reed. Not Ronnie Stewart and the Enticknap boys. Sorry, but it's the hard truth.

I added an alternative class structure to my original post, basically 250 mod, 250 limited, and 125 limited.

Daytime: Practice, Qualifying and support races.

450 Class Top 16 Qualifiers to the Main, next 22 to the B-main/LCQ.

250 Class: Top 22 Qualifiers to the Main.

Support Class (50/85/125cc, one will race in the night show, the others during the day). changes at each event) qualifying. Note: track will be designed such that the Support class will race on a shortened track which specifically excludes whoops.

Night Show:
6:30 Opening Ceremonies
7:05 450 LCQ. (Top 6 to the 450 Mains) 8+1
7:18 Support Class Race 8+1
7:30-7:50. Track Prep
8:00 450 Race 1 18+1
8:35 250 Race 18+1
9:00-9:20 Track Prep
9:30 450 Race 2 18+1

Maybe switch the Support Class and 250 races.

Frank Tuesday wrote:

Daytime: Practice, Qualifying and support races.

450 Class Top 16 Qualifiers to the Main, next 22 to the B-main/LCQ.

250 Class: Top 22 Qualifiers to the Main.

Support Class (50/85/125cc, one will race in the night show, the others during the day). changes at each event) qualifying. Note: track will be designed such that the Support class will race on a shortened track which specifically excludes whoops.

Night Show:
6:30 Opening Ceremonies
7:05 450 LCQ. (Top 6 to the 450 Mains) 8+1
7:18 Support Class Race 8+1
7:30-7:50. Track Prep
8:00 450 Race 1 18+1
8:35 250 Race 18+1
9:00-9:20 Track Prep
9:30 450 Race 2 18+1

Maybe switch the Support Class and 250 races.

Nice.

Is your 250 class regional or one class?

I don't think kids (85s) should be on a full supercross track

Frank Tuesday wrote:

Daytime: Practice, Qualifying and support races.

450 Class Top 16 Qualifiers to the Main, next 22 to the B-main/LCQ.

250 Class: Top 22 Qualifiers to the Main.

Support Class (50/85/125cc, one will race in the night show, the others during the day). changes at each event) qualifying. Note: track will be designed such that the Support class will race on a shortened track which specifically excludes whoops.

Night Show:
6:30 Opening Ceremonies
7:05 450 LCQ. (Top 6 to the 450 Mains) 8+1
7:18 Support Class Race 8+1
7:30-7:50. Track Prep
8:00 450 Race 1 18+1
8:35 250 Race 18+1
9:00-9:20 Track Prep
9:30 450 Race 2 18+1

Maybe switch the Support Class and 250 races.

early wrote:

Nice.

Is your 250 class regional or one class?

I don't think kids (85s) should be on a full supercross track

250 class as regional or national doesn't matter so much to me. If you're getting exposure for the younger kids before they hit 250s, a national class makes sense. Forgot to specify modified track for 50/85/125 which excludes whoop section.

Stop with the adding more and more crap!


Eliminate one class, doesn't matter which one.

Run the races.

Enjoy every fancy team and big rider competing in the same race

Watch moran fan base increase because things are far less confusing.

Profit

A Superpole at some point throughout the night that rewards points. It’s actually really exciting watching them race the clock

Get rid of the 450s. Main class is 250f modified. Feeder class is 250 stock. Having everyone on 250s would even out the competition (more have the talent/ability to ride a 250 wide open than a 450) giving us closer racing, and 450s are just too much for indoors. The stock class would still give privateers a chance to show their potential without spending a fortune.

3 qualifiers …...take 8 moto #1...... take 7 moto #2 ……. and 7 moto #3 ….. same for both classes

Two heats and one LCQ.

The heats take 5 each. The LCQ takes 12.

Yes of course I love watching the racing, but the semis were the most boring ones of the night. But what made them great? The fact that the transfer spots in the heat were so few that there was some great racing with some great riders in those heats for that final spot. Bring that back. But you have to extend it to 5 spots instead of 4 because taking 14 out of the LCQ just seemed like way too many.

Then the mains how they are now.