Yamahas "problem" in MXGP

Ray_MXS
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With the rumors beeing that Wilvo takes over the official Yamaha factory effort for next year, thus cutting the number of factory (or factory supported) Yamahas from 4 to two, what do they do?

Romain Febvre: 2015 World Champion. Also has been the best placing Yamaha in the championship ever since, even through injuries. Started season strong, got injured, now back and racking up podiums again.

Jeremy Seewer. 3rd in points right now and has been very consistent and improving each round, culimating in hitting moto podiums the last two rounds.

Gautier Paulin: 4th in points. Veteran, solid as always. Maybe not the blazing speed he had a few years ago but the guy has already hit the overall podium once, and 3 moto podiums this year.

Arnaud Tonus: Arguably the guy that was planned for the cut but with 7 (!) moto podiums in the last 8 races (with the 8th one beeing a 4th) and overall podiums for 4 rounds in a row. Arguably the hottest rider right now alongside Gajser. Also 5th in points.

I wouldnt want to be the one making these decisions for next year. I´m sure they´d like to keep all of them.

Is anyone of these under contract for 2020?

What choices do they have if they wanna make another team a "factory supported" effort like Wilvo has been. Is the Swedish team of JWR up to the task?
Can someone else come in to take over the reigns?
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jeffro503
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6/17/2019 11:37pm Edited Date/Time 6/17/2019 11:38pm
That is a really tough call. All 4 of those guy's should have factory equipment under them. All 4 of them have been towards the front at some time , or in flashes this season.....and to me , it sounds like Yamaha may shoot themselves in the foot. I know AC222 is rumored to try and race this next weekend , but right now with KTM's tow man team , it's likely both may not be able to race. Yamaha could very well likey be put in that exact same position next year.

That being said....Tonus has impressed me so freakin' much this season! God dang that guy can ride the wheels off a bike! Such a cool and humble dude , that I think surprised a lot of his fans on just what that guy is capable of.

Anyways , no matter what happens next year with Yamaha , i hope the two guy's that lose their ride , find another home to be comfortable in.
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mxmaniac
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6/18/2019 1:07am
Seewer and Tonus on a Suzuki team would be great!
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6/18/2019 1:13am
I feel there’s gonna be a lot of riders moving around next year. Bogers has got to be out at Honda, injured all of last season, don’t know what he’s issues are this season. Can’t see how he even got the ride. Lieber, when he stays on is top 10 material, I can see him staying at Kawasaki. Is Desalle’s contract up this year?
Ray_MXS
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6/18/2019 1:18am
I feel there’s gonna be a lot of riders moving around next year. Bogers has got to be out at Honda, injured all of last season...
I feel there’s gonna be a lot of riders moving around next year. Bogers has got to be out at Honda, injured all of last season, don’t know what he’s issues are this season. Can’t see how he even got the ride. Lieber, when he stays on is top 10 material, I can see him staying at Kawasaki. Is Desalle’s contract up this year?
Bogers brings big money to the HRC team, that's why he got that ride.

Exactly the same with Lieber. Payed his way in.

As long as they bring in the $$$, I sadly don't see they going anywhere.
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Ray_MXS
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6/18/2019 1:20am
mxmaniac wrote:
Seewer and Tonus on a Suzuki team would be great!
While I agree, I seriously can´t see Seewer wanting to ride yellow again anytime soon.
6/18/2019 1:24am
I feel there’s gonna be a lot of riders moving around next year. Bogers has got to be out at Honda, injured all of last season...
I feel there’s gonna be a lot of riders moving around next year. Bogers has got to be out at Honda, injured all of last season, don’t know what he’s issues are this season. Can’t see how he even got the ride. Lieber, when he stays on is top 10 material, I can see him staying at Kawasaki. Is Desalle’s contract up this year?
Ray_MXS wrote:
Bogers brings big money to the HRC team, that's why he got that ride. Exactly the same with Lieber. Payed his way in. As long as...
Bogers brings big money to the HRC team, that's why he got that ride.

Exactly the same with Lieber. Payed his way in.

As long as they bring in the $$$, I sadly don't see they going anywhere.
That’s fair enough but at least Lieber runs near the front, Bogers barely scored points.
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6/18/2019 1:35am
jeffro503 wrote:
That is a really tough call. All 4 of those guy's should have factory equipment under them. All 4 of them have been towards the front...
That is a really tough call. All 4 of those guy's should have factory equipment under them. All 4 of them have been towards the front at some time , or in flashes this season.....and to me , it sounds like Yamaha may shoot themselves in the foot. I know AC222 is rumored to try and race this next weekend , but right now with KTM's tow man team , it's likely both may not be able to race. Yamaha could very well likey be put in that exact same position next year.

That being said....Tonus has impressed me so freakin' much this season! God dang that guy can ride the wheels off a bike! Such a cool and humble dude , that I think surprised a lot of his fans on just what that guy is capable of.

Anyways , no matter what happens next year with Yamaha , i hope the two guy's that lose their ride , find another home to be comfortable in.
I agree, I also think yamaha will shoot themselves in the foot;

- In the US, they have the 250 team that works perfectly, but in the GP it is not often the case (except this year where they have like 2 riders in the top 6). Without Star racing, most people wouldn't be so convinced by their 250.

- In 450, it is the same, but in GP. Right now they are showing their 450 is working awesome, which is not really the case in the US (8th and 9th in the championship? + Webb didn't help last years). With this pressure, all the 4 riders are currently performing well, but this has not always been the case too. Maybe they should keep this pressure if that is how you make riders perform better, but as it is they should postpone the decision and keep these 4 riders for at least another year. Right now their image is really improving in 450, it is not sure it will be the case next year especially when as you said some injuries can also comes into play (i.e. no Desalle = no kawi in the top 8)


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jeffro503
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6/18/2019 1:36am
I feel there’s gonna be a lot of riders moving around next year. Bogers has got to be out at Honda, injured all of last season...
I feel there’s gonna be a lot of riders moving around next year. Bogers has got to be out at Honda, injured all of last season, don’t know what he’s issues are this season. Can’t see how he even got the ride. Lieber, when he stays on is top 10 material, I can see him staying at Kawasaki. Is Desalle’s contract up this year?
Ray_MXS wrote:
Bogers brings big money to the HRC team, that's why he got that ride. Exactly the same with Lieber. Payed his way in. As long as...
Bogers brings big money to the HRC team, that's why he got that ride.

Exactly the same with Lieber. Payed his way in.

As long as they bring in the $$$, I sadly don't see they going anywhere.
That’s fair enough but at least Lieber runs near the front, Bogers barely scored points.
I agree. What I don't get about that whole thing is , every team usually have a championship contender ( like Gasjer ) and another rider trying for top 10 at all times. Bogers barely scores points and it isn't uncommon to see wildcards end up beating him.

Ok.....if he does in fact bring big money , then why the hell doesn't Honda have enough money to support a 3rd rider ( I'm talking just 450 class ) that can be a top 7th - 10th place guy? I don't get it.

And with two Yamaha rides going away , Suzuki already gone , and slower riders buying their rides.....it sure as hell leaves a lot of fast dudes with no ride. It sucks!
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Ray_MXS
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6/18/2019 2:03am
I feel there’s gonna be a lot of riders moving around next year. Bogers has got to be out at Honda, injured all of last season...
I feel there’s gonna be a lot of riders moving around next year. Bogers has got to be out at Honda, injured all of last season, don’t know what he’s issues are this season. Can’t see how he even got the ride. Lieber, when he stays on is top 10 material, I can see him staying at Kawasaki. Is Desalle’s contract up this year?
Ray_MXS wrote:
Bogers brings big money to the HRC team, that's why he got that ride. Exactly the same with Lieber. Payed his way in. As long as...
Bogers brings big money to the HRC team, that's why he got that ride.

Exactly the same with Lieber. Payed his way in.

As long as they bring in the $$$, I sadly don't see they going anywhere.
That’s fair enough but at least Lieber runs near the front, Bogers barely scored points.
Yeah I agree. One could argue Lieber is worthy of that ride, or at least was worthy of a shot. I was just pointing out that he got that ride partly because he brought money along. He wasnt the hottest rider on the market when he got it, but he has done pretty well with it.

From what I´ve heard, JM Racing isnt ready to shut down after they got shafted by Husky, so maybe thats where Suzuki sees its way back in. The question is if they´d do both 450 and 250.

It would be awesome to see more manufacturers bring back the full factory teams in MX2. KTM and Husky are full factory and I guess Vlaanderen is on a true HRC bike but I dont think either Kawi or Yamaha teams has that level of support.
Deja New
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6/18/2019 2:21am
mxmaniac wrote:
Seewer and Tonus on a Suzuki team would be great!
Ray_MXS wrote:
While I agree, I seriously can´t see Seewer wanting to ride yellow again anytime soon.
I bet he’d ride one before having no ride at all. That being said not going to happen anytime soon.
6/18/2019 2:40am
Ray_MXS wrote:
Yeah I agree. One could argue Lieber is worthy of that ride, or at least was worthy of a shot. I was just pointing out that...
Yeah I agree. One could argue Lieber is worthy of that ride, or at least was worthy of a shot. I was just pointing out that he got that ride partly because he brought money along. He wasnt the hottest rider on the market when he got it, but he has done pretty well with it.

From what I´ve heard, JM Racing isnt ready to shut down after they got shafted by Husky, so maybe thats where Suzuki sees its way back in. The question is if they´d do both 450 and 250.

It would be awesome to see more manufacturers bring back the full factory teams in MX2. KTM and Husky are full factory and I guess Vlaanderen is on a true HRC bike but I dont think either Kawi or Yamaha teams has that level of support.
Wondering if JM would be ok if they would get factory support from Yamaha, kind of like Wilvo does now?
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DeStouwer
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6/18/2019 2:46am
From what rumours I've heard:

- Yamaha Rinaldi seems to quit indeed. For shame, one of the most prominent teams of the paddock since... seems like forever. If this rumour turns out to be true, a big loss for the GP-scene.

- Yamaha Wilvo will probably inherit the full-factory status. Well earned for Louis Vosters and his team.

- Jacky Martens loses the support from Husqvarna in 2020, this was revealed before the start of this season. I don't know what he's up to, but if he gets Suzuki back in, and that's a big if, will he run and MXGP and an MX2-team? I believe he hasn't lead a premierclass team since around 2005.

- I get it's difficult for Bogers to come back after missing almost the entire season of 2018. But Tonus managed, and how. He always seems to fight between places 12-22, except for the mudrace in Mantova. He's battling for 18th places in the standings with Tanel Leok, a guy who races under his own awning and who's 12 years older. Bringing a lot of cash or not, Japan can't stay satisfied with those results from a full-factory rider.
#434
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6/18/2019 3:08am
What are the reasons that Rinaldi is closing down? Has Michele lost interest? He's 60, is he retiring?
roninho
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6/18/2019 3:21am
jeffro503 wrote:
I agree. What I don't get about that whole thing is , every team usually have a championship contender ( like Gasjer ) and another rider...
I agree. What I don't get about that whole thing is , every team usually have a championship contender ( like Gasjer ) and another rider trying for top 10 at all times. Bogers barely scores points and it isn't uncommon to see wildcards end up beating him.

Ok.....if he does in fact bring big money , then why the hell doesn't Honda have enough money to support a 3rd rider ( I'm talking just 450 class ) that can be a top 7th - 10th place guy? I don't get it.

And with two Yamaha rides going away , Suzuki already gone , and slower riders buying their rides.....it sure as hell leaves a lot of fast dudes with no ride. It sucks!
First of all, it says something about the state of MXGP that HRC accepts payriders for their second factory bike. I cannot remember that HRC ever did that, except for the occasional Japanese rider getting a shot.

Having said that, it wasn't that strange of a thought to expect Bogers to fight for a top 10 position in MXGP.

Bogers didnt age out of mx2 he moved up to mxgp early after 6th and 8th in points in mx2 and probably 5-6 podium finishes.He was also considered to be a gu y who would likely be better on a 450 due to his weight and build.

Unfortunately (or better said fortunately) sponsorship isnt going to make up for these results so Bogers won't be the #2 factory rider next season. Maybe if HSF pays he can be a 3rd rider.
Imo he'll have to hope for a rider at a Dutch team like Hutten or maybe Gebben (with Lupino having a bad crash)
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roninho
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6/18/2019 3:26am
Ray_MXS wrote:
Yeah I agree. One could argue Lieber is worthy of that ride, or at least was worthy of a shot. I was just pointing out that...
Yeah I agree. One could argue Lieber is worthy of that ride, or at least was worthy of a shot. I was just pointing out that he got that ride partly because he brought money along. He wasnt the hottest rider on the market when he got it, but he has done pretty well with it.

From what I´ve heard, JM Racing isnt ready to shut down after they got shafted by Husky, so maybe thats where Suzuki sees its way back in. The question is if they´d do both 450 and 250.

It would be awesome to see more manufacturers bring back the full factory teams in MX2. KTM and Husky are full factory and I guess Vlaanderen is on a true HRC bike but I dont think either Kawi or Yamaha teams has that level of support.
Well 'one could argue Lieber is worthy of that rider, or a least was worthy of a shot' seems a bit negative imo.

The best available non-factory rider is probably van Horebeek.

Jeremy van Horebeek currently has 200 points. Julien Lieber has 186.

If i'm looking for a #2 rider those 186 points plus $500k look quite interesting compared to 200 points minus $150k salary. Seems quite worthy of a shot to be honest.
Ray_MXS
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6/18/2019 3:58am
Ray_MXS wrote:
Yeah I agree. One could argue Lieber is worthy of that ride, or at least was worthy of a shot. I was just pointing out that...
Yeah I agree. One could argue Lieber is worthy of that ride, or at least was worthy of a shot. I was just pointing out that he got that ride partly because he brought money along. He wasnt the hottest rider on the market when he got it, but he has done pretty well with it.

From what I´ve heard, JM Racing isnt ready to shut down after they got shafted by Husky, so maybe thats where Suzuki sees its way back in. The question is if they´d do both 450 and 250.

It would be awesome to see more manufacturers bring back the full factory teams in MX2. KTM and Husky are full factory and I guess Vlaanderen is on a true HRC bike but I dont think either Kawi or Yamaha teams has that level of support.
roninho wrote:
Well 'one could argue Lieber is worthy of that rider, or a least was worthy of a shot' seems a bit negative imo. The best available...
Well 'one could argue Lieber is worthy of that rider, or a least was worthy of a shot' seems a bit negative imo.

The best available non-factory rider is probably van Horebeek.

Jeremy van Horebeek currently has 200 points. Julien Lieber has 186.

If i'm looking for a #2 rider those 186 points plus $500k look quite interesting compared to 200 points minus $150k salary. Seems quite worthy of a shot to be honest.
It's his second year. At the time of the signing there was names like Jasikonis, Stribjos, Bobryshev and Nagl without rides. I'm not saying he didn't perform like those guys would have, or even better, but at that time it was quite clear that the money he brought with him made the difference.
6/18/2019 4:05am
Ray_MXS wrote:
Yeah I agree. One could argue Lieber is worthy of that ride, or at least was worthy of a shot. I was just pointing out that...
Yeah I agree. One could argue Lieber is worthy of that ride, or at least was worthy of a shot. I was just pointing out that he got that ride partly because he brought money along. He wasnt the hottest rider on the market when he got it, but he has done pretty well with it.

From what I´ve heard, JM Racing isnt ready to shut down after they got shafted by Husky, so maybe thats where Suzuki sees its way back in. The question is if they´d do both 450 and 250.

It would be awesome to see more manufacturers bring back the full factory teams in MX2. KTM and Husky are full factory and I guess Vlaanderen is on a true HRC bike but I dont think either Kawi or Yamaha teams has that level of support.
roninho wrote:
Well 'one could argue Lieber is worthy of that rider, or a least was worthy of a shot' seems a bit negative imo. The best available...
Well 'one could argue Lieber is worthy of that rider, or a least was worthy of a shot' seems a bit negative imo.

The best available non-factory rider is probably van Horebeek.

Jeremy van Horebeek currently has 200 points. Julien Lieber has 186.

If i'm looking for a #2 rider those 186 points plus $500k look quite interesting compared to 200 points minus $150k salary. Seems quite worthy of a shot to be honest.
You’ve also gotta remember that Lieber lost was it 1 season or 2 through injury. Before that he was starting to podium. He comes back, on his father’s team, and leads the mx2 standings for a round. Guy is fast plus he went straight into MXGP with a factory ride, no feeling his way in like Seewer did last year with Wilvo. IMO he deserves his factory seat regardless if he brought money with him.
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6/18/2019 4:12am
Is it a certain that "IF" Wilvo get the Yamaha factory gig they are only running 2 riders next year. Why not have 4 riders. So far its all speculation on rider numbers
Ray_MXS
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6/18/2019 4:14am
You’ve also gotta remember that Lieber lost was it 1 season or 2 through injury. Before that he was starting to podium. He comes back, on...
You’ve also gotta remember that Lieber lost was it 1 season or 2 through injury. Before that he was starting to podium. He comes back, on his father’s team, and leads the mx2 standings for a round. Guy is fast plus he went straight into MXGP with a factory ride, no feeling his way in like Seewer did last year with Wilvo. IMO he deserves his factory seat regardless if he brought money with him.
Yeah ok maybe I´m beeing a little hard on him. I do think he has earned the ride since he has gotten it. I just remember the discussions back then, and my own mindset, that not only the established 450 guys I listed (Strijbos, Jasikonis, Bobryshev, Nagl) but also the 250 guys coming up like Seewer and Paturel seemed more logical.
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Ray_MXS
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6/18/2019 4:17am
Is it a certain that "IF" Wilvo get the Yamaha factory gig they are only running 2 riders next year. Why not have 4 riders. So...
Is it a certain that "IF" Wilvo get the Yamaha factory gig they are only running 2 riders next year. Why not have 4 riders. So far its all speculation on rider numbers
Of course its all speculations. That´s what happens here at Vital Tongue .

I cant recall a single time where a single team fielded 4 riders in the same class. Even 3 riders is a stretch, only Husky and KTM have done it in recent years.
6/18/2019 4:17am
Ray_MXS wrote:
Yeah ok maybe I´m beeing a little hard on him. I do think he has earned the ride since he has gotten it. I just remember...
Yeah ok maybe I´m beeing a little hard on him. I do think he has earned the ride since he has gotten it. I just remember the discussions back then, and my own mindset, that not only the established 450 guys I listed (Strijbos, Jasikonis, Bobryshev, Nagl) but also the 250 guys coming up like Seewer and Paturel seemed more logical.
I think the point I was trying to make was, if both Lieber & Bogers did buy their rides, Lieber is doing a good job of keeping it on merit alone.
Ray_MXS
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6/18/2019 4:21am
I think the point I was trying to make was, if both Lieber & Bogers did buy their rides, Lieber is doing a good job of...
I think the point I was trying to make was, if both Lieber & Bogers did buy their rides, Lieber is doing a good job of keeping it on merit alone.
Absolutely. While there´s some non-factory guys above him in points (Do we count Wilvo as factory bikes?) like Van Horebeek and Coldenhoff, one could argue that Lieber has more future ahead of him than those guys. Lieber could still be considered having "untapped potential" if you will Laughing
6/18/2019 5:45am
First of all, your thinking is completely wrong. Everyone knows the Yamaha is unrideable at the pro level. It's a great amateur bike that holds up to abuse, but it cannot win at the pro level. Remember, it's not the rider. It's the bike.
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6/18/2019 5:57am
Is it a certain that "IF" Wilvo get the Yamaha factory gig they are only running 2 riders next year. Why not have 4 riders. So...
Is it a certain that "IF" Wilvo get the Yamaha factory gig they are only running 2 riders next year. Why not have 4 riders. So far its all speculation on rider numbers
Ray_MXS wrote:
Of course its all speculations. That´s what happens here at Vital :P. I cant recall a single time where a single team fielded 4 riders in...
Of course its all speculations. That´s what happens here at Vital Tongue .

I cant recall a single time where a single team fielded 4 riders in the same class. Even 3 riders is a stretch, only Husky and KTM have done it in recent years.

What is somewhat a disaster in modern mx is that no team bring 3 or 4 riders yet they still have 15 people on the payroll.

13 people = :
1 manager
1 secretary
1 trainer
4 mechanics
4 riders
and then there still 2 people for as PR/sponsorship salesman, and 1 motorist or suspension specialist...

In the 90's we have seen riders with their dad winning GPs. 2 people = GP wins. And now suddently 30 people are really needed ?
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DeStouwer
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6/18/2019 6:13am
Question wrote:
What is somewhat a disaster in modern mx is that no team bring 3 or 4 riders yet they still have 15 people on the payroll...

What is somewhat a disaster in modern mx is that no team bring 3 or 4 riders yet they still have 15 people on the payroll.

13 people = :
1 manager
1 secretary
1 trainer
4 mechanics
4 riders
and then there still 2 people for as PR/sponsorship salesman, and 1 motorist or suspension specialist...

In the 90's we have seen riders with their dad winning GPs. 2 people = GP wins. And now suddently 30 people are really needed ?
Have you seen Team USA at the MXoN? It's unreal how many crew / people they bring along. Imo they could as good as they are with fewer people.
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agn5009
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6/18/2019 6:20am
I’d keep Febvre and Tonus at this point. Seewer has been really good so I’d hate to let him go but Tonus has been that much better.

If Tonus takes that next step and starts winning, then what? We very well could see Yamaha keep him and Seewer. Febvre is amazing but I “think” Febvre has missed races every year since 2015? He needs to start staying healthy.
6/18/2019 6:53am
I feel there’s gonna be a lot of riders moving around next year. Bogers has got to be out at Honda, injured all of last season...
I feel there’s gonna be a lot of riders moving around next year. Bogers has got to be out at Honda, injured all of last season, don’t know what he’s issues are this season. Can’t see how he even got the ride. Lieber, when he stays on is top 10 material, I can see him staying at Kawasaki. Is Desalle’s contract up this year?
Ray_MXS wrote:
Bogers brings big money to the HRC team, that's why he got that ride. Exactly the same with Lieber. Payed his way in. As long as...
Bogers brings big money to the HRC team, that's why he got that ride.

Exactly the same with Lieber. Payed his way in.

As long as they bring in the $$$, I sadly don't see they going anywhere.
Bogers, just like Vlaanderen, was under contract at HSF KTM when they stopped that team all of a sudden. HSF then became a (big) sponsor at HRC but only if they took over the contracts of Bogers and Vlaanderen. That's how he and Vlaanderen got there. First season he was just unlucky with the in juries but this year shows he doesn't belong o a factory bike. He has to work his ass of to get a top 15 finish.
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6/18/2019 7:11am
Bogers, just like Vlaanderen, was under contract at HSF KTM when they stopped that team all of a sudden. HSF then became a (big) sponsor at...
Bogers, just like Vlaanderen, was under contract at HSF KTM when they stopped that team all of a sudden. HSF then became a (big) sponsor at HRC but only if they took over the contracts of Bogers and Vlaanderen. That's how he and Vlaanderen got there. First season he was just unlucky with the in juries but this year shows he doesn't belong o a factory bike. He has to work his ass of to get a top 15 finish.
Would’ve made sense to have Vlaanderen & Bogers in MX2 & just Gajser in MXGP.
Sideways
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6/18/2019 7:17am
I think Febvre will switch team. I think he will replace desalle at kawasaki.

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