Yamaha aluminum frame ?

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12/15/2018 6:17 PM
Edited Date/Time: 12/15/2018 6:22 PM

So the Yz250 aluminum frame thats very similar to the steel frame is a fairly universally loved frame and its light weight. Why didnt Yamaha or any other brand use an aluminum frame in this style vs using the box aluminum style ones? If the KTM steel frame is fine youd think this could be fine too holding a 250f. Anyone know what the deal is? Anyone ever do a swap? Maybe this could be a way to get close to steel frame performance from Japan.

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12/15/2018 6:20 PM

no real answer, I blame it on Honda.

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vomiting equals disqualification.

12/15/2018 6:50 PM
Edited Date/Time: 12/15/2018 6:51 PM

Ok, I’m gonna take a stab at this. Keep in mind I’m far from the smartest fucker alive, and you’re welcome to laugh your asses off.....
By the time the YZ smokers got the aluminum frame, the thumper revolution was in full swing. It appears the YZ frame is cast for the most part (more on this in a bit)....
The 4 stroke frame isn’t cast, therefore, can be altered far more easily, cost effective, year to year, as the bikes progress. People are buying this new found MX miracle in droves because it’s the end all to be all, so let’s us the OEM, have it to where we can alter a chassis yearly if need be with very little R&D money spent. The entire chassis isn’t all box tubing, but the biggest portion is....easier to alter the geometry on the cast pieces when all your doing is welding them to tubing to achieve your goal.
Now the smokers..... In my opinion, Yamaha tossed the aluminum frame on these to keep an interest in the two stroke. Period. The new generation wasn’t really buying them near as much, so, let’s give it an aluminum frame to help it stay modern. We can make it cast, and continue to use the molds for the frames, year in, year out, until this 2 stroke era dies out. No altering, no changes, this mold can be our money maker for years, or until folks quit buying smokers. Regardless, we will get our money back in tenfold, and never really have to invest any money into 2 stroke development because it’s rapidly becoming a dinosaur. Molds cost God only knows, box tubing is cheap, building new molds every other year gets costly......
Did any of that make sense??? I know, I think too much into this shit. Bash away......

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12/15/2018 7:07 PM
Edited Date/Time: 12/15/2018 7:09 PM

dadofagun wrote:

Ok, I’m gonna take a stab at this. Keep in mind I’m far from the smartest fucker alive, and you’re welcome to laugh your asses off.....
By the time the YZ smokers got the aluminum frame, the thumper revolution was in full swing. It appears the YZ frame is cast for the most part (more on this in a bit)....
The 4 stroke frame isn’t cast, therefore, can be altered far more easily, cost effective, year to year, as the bikes progress. People are buying this new found MX miracle in droves because it’s the end all to be all, so let’s us the OEM, have it to where we can alter a chassis yearly if need be with very little R&D money spent. The entire chassis isn’t all box tubing, but the biggest portion is....easier to alter the geometry on the cast pieces when all your doing is welding them to tubing to achieve your goal.
Now the smokers..... In my opinion, Yamaha tossed the aluminum frame on these to keep an interest in the two stroke. Period. The new generation wasn’t really buying them near as much, so, let’s give it an aluminum frame to help it stay modern. We can make it cast, and continue to use the molds for the frames, year in, year out, until this 2 stroke era dies out. No altering, no changes, this mold can be our money maker for years, or until folks quit buying smokers. Regardless, we will get our money back in tenfold, and never really have to invest any money into 2 stroke development because it’s rapidly becoming a dinosaur. Molds cost God only knows, box tubing is cheap, building new molds every other year gets costly......
Did any of that make sense??? I know, I think too much into this shit. Bash away......

Sounded pretty good so I looked for a pic of the frame. Its not a big hunk of cast aluminum. Part of what you said I think is true though. I dont think they went aluminum to appear modern though, I bet they did it for the same reason as the 4 strokes... Its cheap and easy to make and since theyre already making aluminum frames for the 4 stroke every year Im sure they wanted to keep the frames department consistent- material wise at least so I bet thats why they went all aluminum. Seeing that its not cast though, at least not fully if at all, brings us back to square one though. Why do they not use this style frame on any 250f? Michael may have an idea.

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12/15/2018 7:08 PM
Edited Date/Time: 12/15/2018 7:26 PM

Couldnt get above link to work. You can see lots of welds so its not a cast in place piece. Im not sure a fully cast aluminum frame would be strong enough.

The first frame even allows a center port exhaust in an aluminum frame... something Suzuki only just now figured out for 2019. Wtf is going on here are we being duped?
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KTM 250sxf frame for reference
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Yz250f perimeter aluminum
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12/15/2018 7:20 PM

dadofagun wrote:

Ok, I’m gonna take a stab at this. Keep in mind I’m far from the smartest fucker alive, and you’re welcome to laugh your asses off.....
By the time the YZ smokers got the aluminum frame, the thumper revolution was in full swing. It appears the YZ frame is cast for the most part (more on this in a bit)....
The 4 stroke frame isn’t cast, therefore, can be altered far more easily, cost effective, year to year, as the bikes progress. People are buying this new found MX miracle in droves because it’s the end all to be all, so let’s us the OEM, have it to where we can alter a chassis yearly if need be with very little R&D money spent. The entire chassis isn’t all box tubing, but the biggest portion is....easier to alter the geometry on the cast pieces when all your doing is welding them to tubing to achieve your goal.
Now the smokers..... In my opinion, Yamaha tossed the aluminum frame on these to keep an interest in the two stroke. Period. The new generation wasn’t really buying them near as much, so, let’s give it an aluminum frame to help it stay modern. We can make it cast, and continue to use the molds for the frames, year in, year out, until this 2 stroke era dies out. No altering, no changes, this mold can be our money maker for years, or until folks quit buying smokers. Regardless, we will get our money back in tenfold, and never really have to invest any money into 2 stroke development because it’s rapidly becoming a dinosaur. Molds cost God only knows, box tubing is cheap, building new molds every other year gets costly......
Did any of that make sense??? I know, I think too much into this shit. Bash away......

When the Aluminum '05 YZ250 came out, it was still Yamaha's premiere motorcycle, and, engine unchanged, it was 7.5 lbs lighter than the '04. Yes, the updates stalled out after that, but I don't think Yamaha was half-assing or bean-counting the design.

For Yamaha 4-strokes in particular, since they are fairly committed to the backwards-engine architecture, twin spar perimeter frames are really the only practical design.

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12/15/2018 7:21 PM

dadofagun wrote:

Ok, I’m gonna take a stab at this. Keep in mind I’m far from the smartest fucker alive, and you’re welcome to laugh your asses off.....
By the time the YZ smokers got the aluminum frame, the thumper revolution was in full swing. It appears the YZ frame is cast for the most part (more on this in a bit)....
The 4 stroke frame isn’t cast, therefore, can be altered far more easily, cost effective, year to year, as the bikes progress. People are buying this new found MX miracle in droves because it’s the end all to be all, so let’s us the OEM, have it to where we can alter a chassis yearly if need be with very little R&D money spent. The entire chassis isn’t all box tubing, but the biggest portion is....easier to alter the geometry on the cast pieces when all your doing is welding them to tubing to achieve your goal.
Now the smokers..... In my opinion, Yamaha tossed the aluminum frame on these to keep an interest in the two stroke. Period. The new generation wasn’t really buying them near as much, so, let’s give it an aluminum frame to help it stay modern. We can make it cast, and continue to use the molds for the frames, year in, year out, until this 2 stroke era dies out. No altering, no changes, this mold can be our money maker for years, or until folks quit buying smokers. Regardless, we will get our money back in tenfold, and never really have to invest any money into 2 stroke development because it’s rapidly becoming a dinosaur. Molds cost God only knows, box tubing is cheap, building new molds every other year gets costly......
Did any of that make sense??? I know, I think too much into this shit. Bash away......

drt410 wrote:

Sounded pretty good so I looked for a pic of the frame. Its not a big hunk of cast aluminum. Part of what you said I think is true though. I dont think they went aluminum to appear modern though, I bet they did it for the same reason as the 4 strokes... Its cheap and easy to make and since theyre already making aluminum frames for the 4 stroke every year Im sure they wanted to keep the frames department consistent- material wise at least so I bet thats why they went all aluminum. Seeing that its not cast though, at least not fully if at all, brings us back to square one though. Why do they not use this style frame on any 250f? Michael may have an idea.

Makes total sense keeping all the same material on the assembly line to reduce costs....
Like I said, I’m far from being smart ?. Just throwing out a opinion, merely for conversation sake, and whoever reads humor. That whole speculation came to me while watching the kids decorate the Christmas Tree.... and I needed a distraction from wondering how I’m gonna pay for all the shit the wife is putting under it....

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12/15/2018 7:30 PM
Edited Date/Time: 12/15/2018 7:43 PM

dadofagun wrote:

Ok, I’m gonna take a stab at this. Keep in mind I’m far from the smartest fucker alive, and you’re welcome to laugh your asses off.....
By the time the YZ smokers got the aluminum frame, the thumper revolution was in full swing. It appears the YZ frame is cast for the most part (more on this in a bit)....
The 4 stroke frame isn’t cast, therefore, can be altered far more easily, cost effective, year to year, as the bikes progress. People are buying this new found MX miracle in droves because it’s the end all to be all, so let’s us the OEM, have it to where we can alter a chassis yearly if need be with very little R&D money spent. The entire chassis isn’t all box tubing, but the biggest portion is....easier to alter the geometry on the cast pieces when all your doing is welding them to tubing to achieve your goal.
Now the smokers..... In my opinion, Yamaha tossed the aluminum frame on these to keep an interest in the two stroke. Period. The new generation wasn’t really buying them near as much, so, let’s give it an aluminum frame to help it stay modern. We can make it cast, and continue to use the molds for the frames, year in, year out, until this 2 stroke era dies out. No altering, no changes, this mold can be our money maker for years, or until folks quit buying smokers. Regardless, we will get our money back in tenfold, and never really have to invest any money into 2 stroke development because it’s rapidly becoming a dinosaur. Molds cost God only knows, box tubing is cheap, building new molds every other year gets costly......
Did any of that make sense??? I know, I think too much into this shit. Bash away......

Dirty Points wrote:

When the Aluminum '05 YZ250 came out, it was still Yamaha's premiere motorcycle, and, engine unchanged, it was 7.5 lbs lighter than the '04. Yes, the updates stalled out after that, but I don't think Yamaha was half-assing or bean-counting the design.

For Yamaha 4-strokes in particular, since they are fairly committed to the backwards-engine architecture, twin spar perimeter frames are really the only practical design.

Haha I hear u on the christmas presents.

Yamaha had it before the reverse engine. Also everyone else does this style too. Yamaha has the only “steel like” aluminum frame for their Y zingers, which were the premier bikes when it came out. Any more guesses? Michael?

Non reverse Yzf
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One thing of note the KTM steel frame geometry is closer to the newer Yzf perimeter frames than the older alum 2 stroke frame. This is just maturation of design as older steel frames had the yz geometry.
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12/15/2018 10:31 PM

I thought it had something to do with going efi and shaped so the fuel tank and fuel pump could be located properly. But then the ktms use that style frame so now im not sure.

But then also now the yzs run the fuel tank and air boxes in funky places so maybe thats still it. Who knows lol

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12/15/2018 10:41 PM

Bradshaw rode an aluminum frame yamaha in 92/93 at a race in japan? Never got the scoop on why they didnt use it.

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12/15/2018 11:04 PM
Edited Date/Time: 12/15/2018 11:30 PM

First gen aluminium frames where mostly made from tubing sections very little to no cast sections. If you look at pics of first gen aluminium frames you can see this.
It was too stiff and resulted in a harsh ride they stuck with tubing at first because they were really paranoid about them cracking.

So they figured out that using more cast sections gave more flex. Like the first gen CR it was mostly tubing sections with a small section around the footpegs that was cast.

So by the time the 3rd gen CR frame came about the entire area from the lower frame cradle up to the shock tower was cast. Which offered optimal flex.

The YZ frame is a combination of cast sections and extruded tube sections. To get the best flex characteristics possible.

Center section the Y piece and frame spars and shock tower are cast. With extruded section between the lower part. The frame cradle and section on top and one one the bottom are extruded tubes placed top of the large cast sections. From the head tube to shock tower and underside of headtube to the exhaust Y.

Yamaha used a similar frame build style on the 06 through 09 YZF's. Where the long weld along the cast section and extruded tube. On the underside from the head tube to the Y sections where prone to cracking down the weld only on the YZF's the two strokes didn't really have this problem.

04 yz125 frame next to the 05 yz125 frame.

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12/15/2018 11:35 PM

An 06 Yz250f frame Yamaha hasn't really changed the way they build the frame. It's now just a twin spar frame design vs this semi perimeter design of the 06 here and the two stroke is a backbone design.

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12/16/2018 5:24 AM

BR8ES wrote:

no real answer, I blame it on Honda.

Yeah, right.
wink

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12/16/2018 6:36 AM

This is before they started looking like Honda frames. Photo

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12/16/2018 7:44 AM

I thought the logic behind the Yz frame was it was identical to the steel frame dimensions. They wanted it to be the same because of how well the 04 handled. I don’t know for sure tho.

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Alright Lunger, Let's Do It

12/16/2018 1:34 PM

Didn‘t Kawi try a similar frame for the KX450f in 2004, but then decided to use a perimeter design instead? What was the reason back then?

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12/16/2018 4:00 PM
Edited Date/Time: 12/16/2018 4:02 PM

Na that was a steel frame. They never had aluminum frames on 2 strokes so when they moved to 4 strokes they still had steel for a few years.

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12/16/2018 4:05 PM

You mean this one was an 04 prototype semi perimeter aluminum frame design.

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12/16/2018 9:47 PM

Yes, that one! Wonder why they decided to postpone the bike and go the other direction. It wasn’t the prettiest bike, that’s for sure..

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12/17/2018 12:02 AM
Edited Date/Time: 12/17/2018 12:03 AM

For me, all the coppying started after VRP builded this frame for a Honda CR125 1990, wich is Nino Fenaroli his bike:

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The Yamaha YZ125 frame looks very similar.

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12/19/2018 6:41 AM

#434 wrote:

Yes, that one! Wonder why they decided to postpone the bike and go the other direction. It wasn’t the prettiest bike, that’s for sure..

It famously broke during testing, at which point they re designed it, which caused the bike to be released a year later than kawi had wanted, as well as being supposedly 10 lbs heavier than the first design.

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when in doubt, pin it out

12/19/2018 8:14 AM

Pretty sure that is why Bubba stayed on the 250 smoker an extra year (and rode the wheels off that thing) - Kawi's 1st attempt was not good...

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12/19/2018 11:19 AM

cable wrote:

Bradshaw rode an aluminum frame yamaha in 92/93 at a race in japan? Never got the scoop on why they didnt use it.

Here is that prototype Bradshaw was riding in Japan in 1991 I believe. Yamaha/Damon must have not liked it that much bucause he crashed a few times during the main?
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Link to YouTube race:



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12/19/2018 11:48 AM

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Kawasaki perimeter frames where know as very good handling bikes - Also again feed back was the perimeter framed Kawasaki's where much better handlers than the old mono style - Never heard anyone say any different - Went through the Kawasaki change to perimeter the perimeter version was way more coveted and improved - There is a reason why the majority of performance motorcycle use perimeter frames - Road Included ! It is a good sound structure to use as a bike frame the engineering logic is good. Perimeter is stronger than mono that is just a fact - Why perimeter and triangles are used everywhere in engineering versus single columns.

Yamaha tried for a long time to have their own original not copy design but eventually they caved and those eraly perimeter framed YZ250F where know as to be very good improvement on the previous designs. Many a testimony from those that got a new yz250f every year ... that 2010 was very good
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12/19/2018 12:27 PM

That aluminium frame yz Bradshaw raced looked good in the heat. The problem with Bradshaw was if things didn't go his way he usually was checkers or wreckers.

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12/19/2018 7:14 PM

Perimeter frame - This became the prevalent design for body-on-frame cars in the United States

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Single beam Soap box frame design.

[LINK TO IMAGE]

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12/19/2018 7:30 PM

Aluminum is trending up in automotive, according to a 2017 Ducker Worldwide survey. The survey projects that aluminum content in North American passenger vehicles, particularly light trucks and SUVs, will increase 42 percent from its 2015 level . Aluminum is a growing material of choice for the automotive industry worldwide as auto manufacturers continue to demand more and more aluminum to produce lighter, safer and stronger cars, trucks and SUVs. Aluminum is lighter, safer and far more sustainable than any other metal material on the market. It also has secondary performance benefits. In terms of safety, aluminum absorbs energy about twice as well as steel, making it safe for automotive applications. In fact, every aluminum bodied vehicle ever crash tested by U.S. federal regulators has a five-star safety rating.From a sustainability standpoint, aluminum is fully recyclable.From a performance standpoint, aluminum vehicles tend to drive better. What does the future hold for the battle of aluminum vs. steel?

When you look at the future of body design, the multi-material approach is going to be the future as we see it. This means a mix of aluminum's, steels, and other plastics and composites. In this multi-material world, aluminum is going to be the predominant material. There are many areas, especially in body-in-white, where aluminum has advantage—and we intend to keep it.-- Future of vehicle construction. ---- from engineering.com

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12/20/2018 5:13 AM

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12/20/2018 7:30 AM

VRR7 wrote:

Aluminum is trending up in automotive, according to a 2017 Ducker Worldwide survey. The survey projects that aluminum content in North American passenger vehicles, particularly light trucks and SUVs, will increase 42 percent from its 2015 level . Aluminum is a growing material of choice for the automotive industry worldwide as auto manufacturers continue to demand more and more aluminum to produce lighter, safer and stronger cars, trucks and SUVs. Aluminum is lighter, safer and far more sustainable than any other metal material on the market. It also has secondary performance benefits. In terms of safety, aluminum absorbs energy about twice as well as steel, making it safe for automotive applications. In fact, every aluminum bodied vehicle ever crash tested by U.S. federal regulators has a five-star safety rating.From a sustainability standpoint, aluminum is fully recyclable.From a performance standpoint, aluminum vehicles tend to drive better. What does the future hold for the battle of aluminum vs. steel?

When you look at the future of body design, the multi-material approach is going to be the future as we see it. This means a mix of aluminum's, steels, and other plastics and composites. In this multi-material world, aluminum is going to be the predominant material. There are many areas, especially in body-in-white, where aluminum has advantage—and we intend to keep it.-- Future of vehicle construction. ---- from engineering.com

google photos of Ford aluminum truck bodies sheared off of the frame in accidents....not to say aluminum is all bad - but it's not the final end-all/be-all solution for motorcycle frames.

I own both (aluminum and steel) framed bikes...and I love both...

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