YZ250F vs YZ450F in pro racing

hartebreak
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5/30/2016 1:22pm Edited Date/Time 5/31/2016 8:01pm
As we have all seen, the Yamaha 250 is pretty much hands and fists above the other brands of bikes the last 2 years, but the riders on the 450 are really struggling. It seems that the 450 was bad for a few years after they turned the motor around but they seemed to figure it out. Now it seems like the riders are lost again. Barcia was obviously really bummed on the bike in his interview on Saturday and Chad didn't really do much on it either in SX. Weston has digressed a bunch as well. Whats the deal, how could one bike be so incredible and the other be so horrible? Why such a regression on the 450 these last 2 years?
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IceMan446
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5/30/2016 1:33pm Edited Date/Time 5/30/2016 1:34pm
hartebreak wrote:
As we have all seen, the Yamaha 250 is pretty much hands and fists above the other brands of bikes the last 2 years, but the...
As we have all seen, the Yamaha 250 is pretty much hands and fists above the other brands of bikes the last 2 years, but the riders on the 450 are really struggling. It seems that the 450 was bad for a few years after they turned the motor around but they seemed to figure it out. Now it seems like the riders are lost again. Barcia was obviously really bummed on the bike in his interview on Saturday and Chad didn't really do much on it either in SX. Weston has digressed a bunch as well. Whats the deal, how could one bike be so incredible and the other be so horrible? Why such a regression on the 450 these last 2 years?
It's not the bike. It's the riders.

The 250 is in the same frame as the 450 and is doing just fine. Again, the riders are better.

Cooper Webb will show everyone how well that bike can work next year.
gsxr6
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5/30/2016 1:46pm Edited Date/Time 5/30/2016 1:48pm
I have a 14 450. I often wonder if sharing the frame with the 250 is the whole problem with it. Fast as heck, solid like no other bike I have ever rode in a straight line, but the bike is nervous cornering, and alot of the "fixes" just make it feel the same in a different part of the corner. It never has put me on my head, but the front tire has a wiggle, a wash sensation that doesn't go away. Also it oversteers to the point that squaring up the corner and going inside down the next straight is almost too easy. It's the fast gradual corners that it's weird in. I think the geometry is a bit aggressive for what the front tire can hold, like someone shaved the steering stops too much.
gsxr6
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5/30/2016 1:55pm
Also it's too heavy stock. Rode a buddy's KTM 350, and the engine didn't really impress me, but the overall lightness was very apparent. My 02 cr250 walks that 350 in a straight line. The yzf on the other hand will have none of that in a straight line, but forget about it being able to hang in the real tight corners. With the Cr or KTM. My buddy's 07 rmz450 and anothers 05 crf450 have much better front end feel, no question. Despite suspension I do not prefer at all....
IceMan446
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5/30/2016 1:57pm
gsxr6 wrote:
I have a 14 450. I often wonder if sharing the frame with the 250 is the whole problem with it. Fast as heck, solid like...
I have a 14 450. I often wonder if sharing the frame with the 250 is the whole problem with it. Fast as heck, solid like no other bike I have ever rode in a straight line, but the bike is nervous cornering, and alot of the "fixes" just make it feel the same in a different part of the corner. It never has put me on my head, but the front tire has a wiggle, a wash sensation that doesn't go away. Also it oversteers to the point that squaring up the corner and going inside down the next straight is almost too easy. It's the fast gradual corners that it's weird in. I think the geometry is a bit aggressive for what the front tire can hold, like someone shaved the steering stops too much.
It didn't start sharing the same frame until this year. (2016)

The Shop

gsxr6
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5/30/2016 2:20pm
Wrong.2014
OR Racer46
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5/30/2016 2:24pm
Not sure your riding ability or the state of your buddies 350 is in but there is no reason for a cr 250 to pull it . . As for Barcia. He would be rt were he is at no matter what bike he is on . It's kinda like saying the KTM is crap becuse Muscan is not winning . The Suzuki sucks cus James can't finish a Moto. Ect ect. If I was not on a KTM
Yamaha would be my first choice
Ramrod
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5/30/2016 2:37pm
IceMan446 wrote:
It's not the bike. It's the riders. The 250 is in the same frame as the 450 and is doing just fine. Again, the riders are...
It's not the bike. It's the riders.

The 250 is in the same frame as the 450 and is doing just fine. Again, the riders are better.

Cooper Webb will show everyone how well that bike can work next year.
IceMan, I agree with you.

Matt Goerke killed it on the Yamaha 450 in Canada last year. Febvre also in mxgp.

Twist the throttle, ride the bike, figure it out. Complaining about the setup is getting old.
AS64
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5/30/2016 2:37pm Edited Date/Time 5/30/2016 2:38pm
Yamaha knows it still needs work. Below is a picture from Transworld MX of the 2017 YZ450F and as you can see (red circle) where the old mount is, they filled it with rubber plugs and to the right of it is where the new engine mount is.

"Hirata's factory Yamaha YZ450F. Note the new engine mounts, which reposition the engine in a new location. We found it odd that the standard engine mount points were left on the frame, but filled with small rubber plugs."

Again,

Sipes #412
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5/30/2016 2:39pm
It's 80% rider 20% bike always has always will be. With all the support the riders have from their teams they should have no complaints about their bikes they ride everyday and test everyday with different set ups. Cooper Web did well on the 450 across the pond. It really comes down to rider and technique because they already have the bikes setup to their spec.
Sipes #412
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5/30/2016 2:40pm
IceMan446 wrote:
It's not the bike. It's the riders. The 250 is in the same frame as the 450 and is doing just fine. Again, the riders are...
It's not the bike. It's the riders.

The 250 is in the same frame as the 450 and is doing just fine. Again, the riders are better.

Cooper Webb will show everyone how well that bike can work next year.
Ramrod wrote:
IceMan, I agree with you. Matt Goerke killed it on the Yamaha 450 in Canada last year. Febvre also in mxgp. Twist the throttle, ride the...
IceMan, I agree with you.

Matt Goerke killed it on the Yamaha 450 in Canada last year. Febvre also in mxgp.

Twist the throttle, ride the bike, figure it out. Complaining about the setup is getting old.
Cheers to that. These riders need to quit saying it's the bikes fault
gsxr6
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5/30/2016 2:48pm Edited Date/Time 5/30/2016 2:56pm
Haha. The 350 is brand new. As is the motor in the Cr. The 350 revs slow. It's not as quick as a two stroke. The 450 gets the cr by a bike from 0 to about 70. After that the yzf walks away. The yzf seems bulletproof, love it, but it doesn't feel right when initiating fast turns. I figured I'd never notice because I'm slow when I bought it, but it is very apparent. Also the Cr is fairly well ported , and runs considerably better than I was expecting when putting it together. Flipped it on a high speed fourth gear wheelie on the first and broke my tailbone actually. Whoops. Suckers fast tho
Justin345
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5/30/2016 2:50pm
Febvre doesn't seem to have an issue with it. Nor does Cooper when he races the 450. It's the current riders, not the bike.
HenryA
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5/30/2016 3:01pm
Febvre won the MXGP championship last year on it and Barcia took severals moto wins on it last summer. Like metioned above, it's more a rider issue than bike issue.
#76
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5/30/2016 3:26pm
Posted this in another thread but this is a good thread for this question :

How many times have people said the 450 bike's a Pig!?, I just don't get it?.....why is it exactly a Pig?, what's the concrete facts that make the bike so bad?....was it still a Pig when Justin / Febvre was doing well and winning on it?.

Honestly, I am really interested to know some facts why people slate the bike?, as I am really considering buying one of the 2017 models (IF it has the electric start, but don't look that way from the pics in the post here!) and moving away from the SXF 450 that I really get on with for the last few years and models.

So.... lets hear the facts please, be good to hear from owners either good or bad.



IceMan446
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5/30/2016 3:42pm
gsxr6 wrote:
Wrong.2014
You are correct.

I read the MXA article on the 2016 and it mentioned the frame being the same as the 450, but didn't say it was already changed in 2014.

I assumed since they mentioned it in the 2016 it was this year.

ML512
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5/30/2016 3:49pm Edited Date/Time 5/30/2016 4:05pm
AS64 wrote:
Yamaha knows it still needs work. Below is a picture from Transworld MX of the 2017 YZ450F and as you can see (red circle) where the...
Yamaha knows it still needs work. Below is a picture from Transworld MX of the 2017 YZ450F and as you can see (red circle) where the old mount is, they filled it with rubber plugs and to the right of it is where the new engine mount is.

"Hirata's factory Yamaha YZ450F. Note the new engine mounts, which reposition the engine in a new location. We found it odd that the standard engine mount points were left on the frame, but filled with small rubber plugs."

Again,

I highlighted that when I was there in 2015, you know...Wink

Also, that's a different cylinder head than what's on the current bikes... The frame is also different along the cross section that wraps from the main spars, to the head tube.
BobPA
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5/30/2016 3:53pm
gsxr6 wrote:
Haha. The 350 is brand new. As is the motor in the Cr. The 350 revs slow. It's not as quick as a two stroke. The...
Haha. The 350 is brand new. As is the motor in the Cr. The 350 revs slow. It's not as quick as a two stroke. The 450 gets the cr by a bike from 0 to about 70. After that the yzf walks away. The yzf seems bulletproof, love it, but it doesn't feel right when initiating fast turns. I figured I'd never notice because I'm slow when I bought it, but it is very apparent. Also the Cr is fairly well ported , and runs considerably better than I was expecting when putting it together. Flipped it on a high speed fourth gear wheelie on the first and broke my tailbone actually. Whoops. Suckers fast tho
Your Cr will not even go 70. There must be something wrong with your buddies 350, or the "slow revving" is deceiving you. Just because something is snappy does not make it faster.

As far as the YZ 250 vs YZ 450 I would say a lot of it has to do with the rider, I know a bunch of guys who like their YZ 450s...
AS64
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5/30/2016 4:00pm Edited Date/Time 5/30/2016 4:03pm
ML512 wrote:
I highlighted that when I was there in 2015, you know...;) Also, that's a different cylinder head than what's on the current bikes... The frame is...
I highlighted that when I was there in 2015, you know...Wink

Also, that's a different cylinder head than what's on the current bikes... The frame is also different along the cross section that wraps from the main spars, to the head tube.
Whoops Unsure

Haha my bad, I should have remembered that.. Just that I was reading this the other day at Transworld so it was still somewhat fresh in my mind Wink

And, yes, good key points you add there.
zlowery
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5/30/2016 4:05pm
I feel like chad reed had it figured out. Watching him in sx, he showed most negative attributes of the bike to be fixed.

Smooth riding style plays well into the 450. Thats really working against barcia.

I bought both 250 and 450 new in 2014. I was amazed how different they felt! And i had 07 crf450 and crf250s - those felt the same just faster/slower. Really makes you scratch your head.
OR Racer46
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The 350 likes to be riden in then 9-13,000 rpm range . I do not think I have ever even shifted mine Into 5th so I am
Not sure if it will go 70 or not . but I know 2nd and 3rd will get me around the track faster than I can go . I am
Also generally up front on the starts . Maybe adjust your throttle ?
gsxr6
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5/30/2016 4:20pm
I've revved the 350 to the limiter in every gear. Yes the cr will do 70. Rode right next to my buddy doing 75. Ur just wrong. The yzf will go 95.....with a tooth added to the back from stock. That's bumping the limiter in 5th. Takes a way too long straight to get there. 70 in third!
gsxr6
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The 350 reminds me of a 250f on steroids. Way fun. Won't out accelerate my cr250, and I outweigh my buddy by 40lbs. When we switch bikes and I ride the 350, he walks away from me. Baaaaad
gsxr6
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5/30/2016 4:31pm
Side by side comparisons don't lie. To me the 350 and 250 are an even match....one( the 350) has a wider rpm range, smooth tractable power, and more overall mph than the other , whereas the 2t is out accelerating it hard until sign off in 5th around 70 75. I'd think that 350 has at least 80 85mph available to it. I've just already beat him and let off before he can get there lol
OR Racer46
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5/30/2016 4:32pm
I think maybe you need to take a look at the lap times. In SX the top 10-15 are all within a second Umm that's pretty close . I am not sure why none of the top pros are running a 97 cr 250 ? Maybe you just have your settings good ? As far as outdoors there is no reason Barcia can not pull the holeshot Hell it will do 95
BobPA
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5/30/2016 4:42pm
gsxr6 wrote:
Side by side comparisons don't lie. To me the 350 and 250 are an even match....one( the 350) has a wider rpm range, smooth tractable power...
Side by side comparisons don't lie. To me the 350 and 250 are an even match....one( the 350) has a wider rpm range, smooth tractable power, and more overall mph than the other , whereas the 2t is out accelerating it hard until sign off in 5th around 70 75. I'd think that 350 has at least 80 85mph available to it. I've just already beat him and let off before he can get there lol
I'm getting the feeling you are a field/road racing aficionado? I have both a 250 2 smoke and a 350, and the 350 beats it in a straight line 10 out of 10 times with equal riders....it is just flat out faster. I put a gps on all my bikes for fun when I get them. My 125 runs 71 MPH, 250 only ran 64 MPH, 350 was 76 MPH (one up on the rear sprocket).

You might be flat out wrong, bro
gsxr6
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5/30/2016 4:56pm
I guess ur right. Our speedos on a couple cars probably way off. That 125 that can smoke a 250 in mph is amazing. As for racing, or a track , lap times, works bikes that weigh twenty pounds less with full engine treatment etc that has nothing to do with dragging, on pavement , with comparably stock bikes lol. U clearly as stated are a proud 350 owner. Good for u bud I'm sure it's an awesome bike I rode one a bunch. Handles way better than my yzf, and the uppermost part of the rpm is wicked. Ridden most type of bikes including cr, kx500s, all kinds of 250fand 450f. Perhaps ur 250 is geared to low, or jetted like turd? Idk, but I'd love to drag u on ur 350 on some pavement
BobPA
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5/30/2016 5:11pm Edited Date/Time 5/30/2016 5:12pm
gsxr6 wrote:
I guess ur right. Our speedos on a couple cars probably way off. That 125 that can smoke a 250 in mph is amazing. As for...
I guess ur right. Our speedos on a couple cars probably way off. That 125 that can smoke a 250 in mph is amazing. As for racing, or a track , lap times, works bikes that weigh twenty pounds less with full engine treatment etc that has nothing to do with dragging, on pavement , with comparably stock bikes lol. U clearly as stated are a proud 350 owner. Good for u bud I'm sure it's an awesome bike I rode one a bunch. Handles way better than my yzf, and the uppermost part of the rpm is wicked. Ridden most type of bikes including cr, kx500s, all kinds of 250fand 450f. Perhaps ur 250 is geared to low, or jetted like turd? Idk, but I'd love to drag u on ur 350 on some pavement
Stock gearing, jetted right on the money 06 Kawi. I actually lied, I checked my log book and it ran 68.4 MPH. My 03 Kawi ran 64.9, but was setup for single track.

You are striking me as a dude that has monster energy stickers instead of numbers on this rocket ship CR250. And you may enjoy drinking a bunch of beers while wheelying up and down the road with a visor less helmet and work boots....am I right?
gsxr6
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5/30/2016 5:19pm
Close buddy. I actually prefer Jose cuervo. And I wear my leapard thong while on said wheelie, sans helmet and in flip flops. All for your mom's. Ur point? Hell u haven't even touched 5th on that badass 350. Do u even lift ?

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