XC an SX or SX an XC?

2/14/2022 8:40am Edited Date/Time 2/20/2022 6:21am
Hello fellow Vitards. Looking for some advice.

I ride both MX and XC about half and half. Currently I have two bikes, a 2009 KTM XC-W and a 2007 KTM 250 punched out to a 300. Really like both of them but they're both long in the tooth. Plus, I'm getting a bit tired of upkeep on two bikes. I'm thinking of finding a bike that can go back and forth, doing both.

My idea is to buy either a KTM 450 SX and buy a larger tank and 18" rear wheel for when I XC or buy an XC with a smaller tank and 19" wheel for when I SX.

Anybody done anything like this or have opinions? Any other bikes I should be looking at that could do both easily?
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Kyle978
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2/14/2022 8:43am Edited Date/Time 2/14/2022 1:36pm
Get an XC-F and rip it on moto. I wouldn’t bother changing out the 18" or big tank, the bike will do great everywhere.

If you go to Glen Helen on a Thursday, you’ll see the top off-road racers mixing it up with the SX/MX boys with their oversized tank, 18” rear and steering dampeners. Doesn’t slow them down at all.

Miniman
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2/14/2022 8:49am
In my humble opinion, it comes down to 2 things, noting that you seem to hang onto bikes for a long period of time.

1) In the next 5-10 years, which do you think you will do more of, XC or MX (I know you said 50/50 as of now).

2) How fast are you on MX track, really? And are you really doing big jumps? If you're pretty dang fast on MX track and really like launching jumps, stick with the SX model and then run your clickers soft when going offroad. Otherwise, I find that 'offroad' suspension on an XC model (or even an XCW) with clickers ran in for higher compression is plenty adequate for average MX riding... unless, again, you're pretty dang fast.

To each their own, I ride more offroad and would rather have my suspension work well in the woods so I don't bounce off every rock and root. Hitting the occasional double isn't so bad on soft suspension (for me).

Curious to hear your opinions.
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Falcon
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2/14/2022 8:55am
My thoughts are that an MX bike can always go softer, but it takes a lot to turn a XC bike into a hard-hitting MX bike. The times I've ridden a tall-geared bike on a motocross track, even a long, fast one, I've been sorely disappointed.
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NeedMoto
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2/14/2022 9:19am
My experience has been that an XC is easier to adapt to moto, than an SX to off-road. I tried my SX350 to off-road, and hated it. It's just to moto orientated for tight single track, but if your cross country is all flowy faster terrain, then you'll be fine with an SX.

Personally for me, I dig on 2 strokes for off-road, including single track tight stuff, and flowy cross country.

I was trying to do one bike as well, but ended up with a 2021 250xc tpi for off-road, and a 2022 FC450 for moto.

Best of both worlds!
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The Shop

TeamGreen
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2/14/2022 9:39am
Kyle978 wrote:
Get an XC-F and rip it on moto. I wouldn’t bother changing out the 18" or big tank, the bike will do great everywhere. If you...
Get an XC-F and rip it on moto. I wouldn’t bother changing out the 18" or big tank, the bike will do great everywhere.

If you go to Glen Helen on a Thursday, you’ll see the top off-road racers mixing it up with the SX/MX boys with their oversized tank, 18” rear and steering dampeners. Doesn’t slow them down at all.

This!

I think the XC tank gives you about 1/2 gallon more fuel. That tank and the rear wheel cost quite a bit more than going the other direction on an SX-F. 19 " wheels seem to be avail alllll over the place.

I'd get the 19" spare and have it avail as a spare at my off-road races. Heck, I like to have a complete wheel-set ...oh, and...run bibs!

Good Luck!
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wrc777
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2/14/2022 9:56am
The choice is a little easier on the 450 because I think XC and SX have the same transmission with maybe a different rear sprocket. If you are getting suspension done anyway I would get the one with the big fuel tank unless you plan to add an Acerbis or IMS even bigger tank. If you want to stay on stock suspension you need to decide which is going to be closer to what you want.

Do you want a kickstand? 18" wheel works for mx or xc, but so does a 19 unless you are talking hard enduro but then a 450 is really the wrong engine for that. You will probably not like the 450 for tight trails especially coming from a 300 2t.
captmoto
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2/14/2022 10:05am
You can add 6th gear on an SX if you desert type off road. Its something I'm going to do on my FC450. I'll live with the smaller tank and 19 since I do mostly moto.
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TeamGreen
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2/14/2022 10:07am
captmoto wrote:
You can add 6th gear on an SX if you desert type off road. Its something I'm going to do on my FC450. I'll live with...
You can add 6th gear on an SX if you desert type off road. Its something I'm going to do on my FC450. I'll live with the smaller tank and 19 since I do mostly moto.
That's a COMPLETE gear-set change as I recall...?
TbonesPop
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2/14/2022 10:08am
I know most guys on here are KTM boys, but I thought I would throw in my set up description since I'm in a similar boat. I have a YZ450F with 2 set ups 1) Motocross set up with stock wheels and gearing, and run one of the Travis Preston maps with various MX suspension settings and 2) Desert trails set up with a complete second set of wheels/tires, 18" rear and different sprocket gearing, in which I run a different map on the Tuner app. I set my suspension softer for trail riding (settings are logged in my owners manual). I've found that I can rip pretty hard for 90-120 minutes in desert settings and still not need a larger fuel tank. The only conditions I get nervous on fuel is when hitting lots of sand, and I just keep an eye on how hard I push in those conditions. i tried a YZ450FX (loved it), but it would be harder for me to set it up for MX than take a YZ450F and set it up for trails, which I have found to be super easy for me.
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2/14/2022 10:35am
wrc777 wrote:
The choice is a little easier on the 450 because I think XC and SX have the same transmission with maybe a different rear sprocket. If...
The choice is a little easier on the 450 because I think XC and SX have the same transmission with maybe a different rear sprocket. If you are getting suspension done anyway I would get the one with the big fuel tank unless you plan to add an Acerbis or IMS even bigger tank. If you want to stay on stock suspension you need to decide which is going to be closer to what you want.

Do you want a kickstand? 18" wheel works for mx or xc, but so does a 19 unless you are talking hard enduro but then a 450 is really the wrong engine for that. You will probably not like the 450 for tight trails especially coming from a 300 2t.
I've wondered about the tranny on both of these as well. Can anyone confirm they are the same on the 450.

I know I'll be giving up somethings and the 450 isn't ideal for XC in the tight stuff. Overall though I think the SX is around the same weight as my XC-W.
2/14/2022 10:39am
TbonesPop wrote:
I know most guys on here are KTM boys, but I thought I would throw in my set up description since I'm in a similar boat...
I know most guys on here are KTM boys, but I thought I would throw in my set up description since I'm in a similar boat. I have a YZ450F with 2 set ups 1) Motocross set up with stock wheels and gearing, and run one of the Travis Preston maps with various MX suspension settings and 2) Desert trails set up with a complete second set of wheels/tires, 18" rear and different sprocket gearing, in which I run a different map on the Tuner app. I set my suspension softer for trail riding (settings are logged in my owners manual). I've found that I can rip pretty hard for 90-120 minutes in desert settings and still not need a larger fuel tank. The only conditions I get nervous on fuel is when hitting lots of sand, and I just keep an eye on how hard I push in those conditions. i tried a YZ450FX (loved it), but it would be harder for me to set it up for MX than take a YZ450F and set it up for trails, which I have found to be super easy for me.
That's interesting. I'll look at the Yammy hammer. I'm not married to KTM at all. If any of the other manufacturers are worth looking at I'll give them a look too.
ktmdan
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2/14/2022 11:32am
My 2019 350xcf was great on mx tracks.
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YZed250
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2/14/2022 11:58am
By the age of your bikes, you're not currently racing, is that right?

You ride trails and MX, but you might get into racing if you get a newer bike, is that right?
Kyle978
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2/14/2022 12:00pm Edited Date/Time 2/14/2022 12:00pm
TbonesPop wrote:
I know most guys on here are KTM boys, but I thought I would throw in my set up description since I'm in a similar boat...
I know most guys on here are KTM boys, but I thought I would throw in my set up description since I'm in a similar boat. I have a YZ450F with 2 set ups 1) Motocross set up with stock wheels and gearing, and run one of the Travis Preston maps with various MX suspension settings and 2) Desert trails set up with a complete second set of wheels/tires, 18" rear and different sprocket gearing, in which I run a different map on the Tuner app. I set my suspension softer for trail riding (settings are logged in my owners manual). I've found that I can rip pretty hard for 90-120 minutes in desert settings and still not need a larger fuel tank. The only conditions I get nervous on fuel is when hitting lots of sand, and I just keep an eye on how hard I push in those conditions. i tried a YZ450FX (loved it), but it would be harder for me to set it up for MX than take a YZ450F and set it up for trails, which I have found to be super easy for me.
That's interesting. I'll look at the Yammy hammer. I'm not married to KTM at all. If any of the other manufacturers are worth looking at I'll...
That's interesting. I'll look at the Yammy hammer. I'm not married to KTM at all. If any of the other manufacturers are worth looking at I'll give them a look too.
I’ll throw the Kawi into the mix, this is mine. It is set up with an 18” rear, big tank, dampener etc. The suspension is set for WORCS type racing and it works extremely well in moto and also in slow, rocky, tight sections. The suspension has a ton of bottoming resistance at the bottom of the stroke so it works fine for big jumps, yet is softer on top so it soaks up roots, rocks and G-outs very well. There’s not a jump at any SoCal public track I don’t feel comfortable jumping with this set up.

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2/14/2022 12:02pm
I'm surprised with all these posts, no one has given correct info on the bikes he's talking about. a 450SX-F and a 450XC-F are the SAME bike except for the 18" wheel, larger tank, and softer suspension. Transmission is the same. power is the same. Sprockets MIGHT be different, but thats an easy swap.
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Kyle978
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2/14/2022 12:05pm
I'm surprised with all these posts, no one has given correct info on the bikes he's talking about. a 450SX-F and a 450XC-F are the SAME...
I'm surprised with all these posts, no one has given correct info on the bikes he's talking about. a 450SX-F and a 450XC-F are the SAME bike except for the 18" wheel, larger tank, and softer suspension. Transmission is the same. power is the same. Sprockets MIGHT be different, but thats an easy swap.
I assumed that was common knowledge.

I would say get the XC-F, get the suspension valved for your weight/speed with a WORCS type setting and you'll be pleased!
Titan1
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2/14/2022 12:16pm
wrc777 wrote:
The choice is a little easier on the 450 because I think XC and SX have the same transmission with maybe a different rear sprocket. If...
The choice is a little easier on the 450 because I think XC and SX have the same transmission with maybe a different rear sprocket. If you are getting suspension done anyway I would get the one with the big fuel tank unless you plan to add an Acerbis or IMS even bigger tank. If you want to stay on stock suspension you need to decide which is going to be closer to what you want.

Do you want a kickstand? 18" wheel works for mx or xc, but so does a 19 unless you are talking hard enduro but then a 450 is really the wrong engine for that. You will probably not like the 450 for tight trails especially coming from a 300 2t.
I've wondered about the tranny on both of these as well. Can anyone confirm they are the same on the 450. I know I'll be giving...
I've wondered about the tranny on both of these as well. Can anyone confirm they are the same on the 450.

I know I'll be giving up somethings and the 450 isn't ideal for XC in the tight stuff. Overall though I think the SX is around the same weight as my XC-W.
The XC and SX have the exact same transmission and engine. The XC has a bigger tank, 18 inch rear wheel, softer suspension, and a kickstand. those are the only differences.

Most guys I ride/race with in the desert, always buy the SX because its cheaper, and since they get the suspension done anyway....

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183Matt
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2/14/2022 1:11pm
wrc777 wrote:
The choice is a little easier on the 450 because I think XC and SX have the same transmission with maybe a different rear sprocket. If...
The choice is a little easier on the 450 because I think XC and SX have the same transmission with maybe a different rear sprocket. If you are getting suspension done anyway I would get the one with the big fuel tank unless you plan to add an Acerbis or IMS even bigger tank. If you want to stay on stock suspension you need to decide which is going to be closer to what you want.

Do you want a kickstand? 18" wheel works for mx or xc, but so does a 19 unless you are talking hard enduro but then a 450 is really the wrong engine for that. You will probably not like the 450 for tight trails especially coming from a 300 2t.
I've wondered about the tranny on both of these as well. Can anyone confirm they are the same on the 450. I know I'll be giving...
I've wondered about the tranny on both of these as well. Can anyone confirm they are the same on the 450.

I know I'll be giving up somethings and the 450 isn't ideal for XC in the tight stuff. Overall though I think the SX is around the same weight as my XC-W.
I have both a XC 450 and SX 450, same tranny in both.

It use to be relatively easy to add a 6th gear to these from the EXC, but the trannys changed around 2020 and now it’s not the same process.
2/14/2022 1:22pm
YZed250 wrote:
By the age of your bikes, you're not currently racing, is that right? You ride trails and MX, but you might get into racing if you...
By the age of your bikes, you're not currently racing, is that right?

You ride trails and MX, but you might get into racing if you get a newer bike, is that right?
No, I race both, still. I probably race the XC-W six times a year and the SX maybe four or five times. I won the 40+ 24-hour Ironman XC race in the DFW area this past November on the XC-W. They're well maintained and still are pretty solid.
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YZed250
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2/14/2022 1:42pm
YZed250 wrote:
By the age of your bikes, you're not currently racing, is that right? You ride trails and MX, but you might get into racing if you...
By the age of your bikes, you're not currently racing, is that right?

You ride trails and MX, but you might get into racing if you get a newer bike, is that right?
No, I race both, still. I probably race the XC-W six times a year and the SX maybe four or five times. I won the 40+...
No, I race both, still. I probably race the XC-W six times a year and the SX maybe four or five times. I won the 40+ 24-hour Ironman XC race in the DFW area this past November on the XC-W. They're well maintained and still are pretty solid.
Do you ever see yourself selling this new bike or do you see yourself keeping this next bike as long as those others?

The 450SXF/XCF are awesome, but they are not the best bike to hold for 5+ years due to the rebuild cost. If you're going to keep a bike that long and put 100+ years on per year, I'd look at a 2-stroke 250/300.
2/14/2022 3:16pm
YZed250 wrote:
By the age of your bikes, you're not currently racing, is that right? You ride trails and MX, but you might get into racing if you...
By the age of your bikes, you're not currently racing, is that right?

You ride trails and MX, but you might get into racing if you get a newer bike, is that right?
No, I race both, still. I probably race the XC-W six times a year and the SX maybe four or five times. I won the 40+...
No, I race both, still. I probably race the XC-W six times a year and the SX maybe four or five times. I won the 40+ 24-hour Ironman XC race in the DFW area this past November on the XC-W. They're well maintained and still are pretty solid.
YZed250 wrote:
Do you ever see yourself selling this new bike or do you see yourself keeping this next bike as long as those others? The 450SXF/XCF are...
Do you ever see yourself selling this new bike or do you see yourself keeping this next bike as long as those others?

The 450SXF/XCF are awesome, but they are not the best bike to hold for 5+ years due to the rebuild cost. If you're going to keep a bike that long and put 100+ years on per year, I'd look at a 2-stroke 250/300.
Interesting idea. I honestly have no idea how long I'll keep it. I have no set schedule with bikes.
tobz
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2/14/2022 3:30pm
Enduro bike goes a lot better on a motocross track compared to a motocross bike on an enduro track.
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YZed250
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2/14/2022 3:34pm Edited Date/Time 2/14/2022 3:35pm
No, I race both, still. I probably race the XC-W six times a year and the SX maybe four or five times. I won the 40+...
No, I race both, still. I probably race the XC-W six times a year and the SX maybe four or five times. I won the 40+ 24-hour Ironman XC race in the DFW area this past November on the XC-W. They're well maintained and still are pretty solid.
YZed250 wrote:
Do you ever see yourself selling this new bike or do you see yourself keeping this next bike as long as those others? The 450SXF/XCF are...
Do you ever see yourself selling this new bike or do you see yourself keeping this next bike as long as those others?

The 450SXF/XCF are awesome, but they are not the best bike to hold for 5+ years due to the rebuild cost. If you're going to keep a bike that long and put 100+ years on per year, I'd look at a 2-stroke 250/300.
Interesting idea. I honestly have no idea how long I'll keep it. I have no set schedule with bikes.
All depends on your priority. Performance wise, either the 350 or the 450 is really tough to beat in the south-west. So if performance is your priority and you can afford a new bike, get the four-stroke (ideally 350XCF, 6-speed). The 350 is a lot easier to ride in an endurance setting than the 450, great MX bike, fantastic desert bike ... amazing motorcycle.

However, you can think of the used four-stroke as a 'disposable' motorcycle where as the 2-stroke is 'rebuildable'. So after 5+ years/2 or more rebuilds, that 450/350F is hard to justify rebuilding that second or third time. There will be others that are happy to DIY rebuild a four-stroke and that certainly extends the useful life of an old bike.

But that's not me, and I don't think that's most riders.
OldManIdaho
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2/14/2022 3:37pm
Same "dilemma" for me a couple years ago. Went with the 450 XC-F (not the W). Exact same bike as an SX except for:

18" rear: Found that I like the cushy feel of an 18 more on the track than a 19 anyway
Slightly softer valving: Works great for me (a C level vet)...better than the SX really in most conditions
Kickstand: Never going back to a bike without one
Bigger tank: Don't notice the size difference

Put it on map 1 with TC on for off road...turn TC off on the track. FWIW, I like the air forks too. Pump them up for track, bleed them off for trail. I had to bump up a couple spring rates for the rear on the XC, but at 220 pounds, I have to go up on spring rate no matter what I ride.

To me, the XC is the way to go unless you are an "A" level rider who really hauls ass on an MX track.
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2/14/2022 3:37pm
YZed250 wrote:
Do you ever see yourself selling this new bike or do you see yourself keeping this next bike as long as those others? The 450SXF/XCF are...
Do you ever see yourself selling this new bike or do you see yourself keeping this next bike as long as those others?

The 450SXF/XCF are awesome, but they are not the best bike to hold for 5+ years due to the rebuild cost. If you're going to keep a bike that long and put 100+ years on per year, I'd look at a 2-stroke 250/300.
Interesting idea. I honestly have no idea how long I'll keep it. I have no set schedule with bikes.
YZed250 wrote:
All depends on your priority. Performance wise, either the 350 or the 450 is really tough to beat in the south-west. So if performance is your...
All depends on your priority. Performance wise, either the 350 or the 450 is really tough to beat in the south-west. So if performance is your priority and you can afford a new bike, get the four-stroke (ideally 350XCF, 6-speed). The 350 is a lot easier to ride in an endurance setting than the 450, great MX bike, fantastic desert bike ... amazing motorcycle.

However, you can think of the used four-stroke as a 'disposable' motorcycle where as the 2-stroke is 'rebuildable'. So after 5+ years/2 or more rebuilds, that 450/350F is hard to justify rebuilding that second or third time. There will be others that are happy to DIY rebuild a four-stroke and that certainly extends the useful life of an old bike.

But that's not me, and I don't think that's most riders.
I would seriously consider the 350 if not for MX starts. Even the 300 SX is getting pulled on most starts unless I time things just right. Will the 350 hold its own in MX starts or does everything have to be perfect to be there first?
YZed250
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2/14/2022 3:47pm
Interesting idea. I honestly have no idea how long I'll keep it. I have no set schedule with bikes.
YZed250 wrote:
All depends on your priority. Performance wise, either the 350 or the 450 is really tough to beat in the south-west. So if performance is your...
All depends on your priority. Performance wise, either the 350 or the 450 is really tough to beat in the south-west. So if performance is your priority and you can afford a new bike, get the four-stroke (ideally 350XCF, 6-speed). The 350 is a lot easier to ride in an endurance setting than the 450, great MX bike, fantastic desert bike ... amazing motorcycle.

However, you can think of the used four-stroke as a 'disposable' motorcycle where as the 2-stroke is 'rebuildable'. So after 5+ years/2 or more rebuilds, that 450/350F is hard to justify rebuilding that second or third time. There will be others that are happy to DIY rebuild a four-stroke and that certainly extends the useful life of an old bike.

But that's not me, and I don't think that's most riders.
I would seriously consider the 350 if not for MX starts. Even the 300 SX is getting pulled on most starts unless I time things just...
I would seriously consider the 350 if not for MX starts. Even the 300 SX is getting pulled on most starts unless I time things just right. Will the 350 hold its own in MX starts or does everything have to be perfect to be there first?
I recall Mike Sleeter getting great starts at Glen Helen on his 350 (Factory Services) motor.

I haven't had one of the current gen KTM 350, so I can't say if they are capable against a 450, but there are plenty of Vitards that have lined up on them and can add their 2c.

The 350 will be way easier to get a good start than your KTM 300 (traction, wider power, similar or higher peak hp).
2/14/2022 4:26pm
YZed250 wrote:
All depends on your priority. Performance wise, either the 350 or the 450 is really tough to beat in the south-west. So if performance is your...
All depends on your priority. Performance wise, either the 350 or the 450 is really tough to beat in the south-west. So if performance is your priority and you can afford a new bike, get the four-stroke (ideally 350XCF, 6-speed). The 350 is a lot easier to ride in an endurance setting than the 450, great MX bike, fantastic desert bike ... amazing motorcycle.

However, you can think of the used four-stroke as a 'disposable' motorcycle where as the 2-stroke is 'rebuildable'. So after 5+ years/2 or more rebuilds, that 450/350F is hard to justify rebuilding that second or third time. There will be others that are happy to DIY rebuild a four-stroke and that certainly extends the useful life of an old bike.

But that's not me, and I don't think that's most riders.
I would seriously consider the 350 if not for MX starts. Even the 300 SX is getting pulled on most starts unless I time things just...
I would seriously consider the 350 if not for MX starts. Even the 300 SX is getting pulled on most starts unless I time things just right. Will the 350 hold its own in MX starts or does everything have to be perfect to be there first?
YZed250 wrote:
I recall Mike Sleeter getting great starts at Glen Helen on his 350 (Factory Services) motor. I haven't had one of the current gen KTM 350...
I recall Mike Sleeter getting great starts at Glen Helen on his 350 (Factory Services) motor.

I haven't had one of the current gen KTM 350, so I can't say if they are capable against a 450, but there are plenty of Vitards that have lined up on them and can add their 2c.

The 350 will be way easier to get a good start than your KTM 300 (traction, wider power, similar or higher peak hp).
That's interesting. Might throw it into the mix.
Lowlander
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2/14/2022 4:53pm
Much easier to go down the xc route in my opinion. Install a fork kit such as Krooztune or Kreft or 101 Gobblers to have the ability to go nice and soft if necessary but stiff enough to run intermediate moto.

Or ideally have a second set of suspension for the bike which are relatively cheap to buy and set up for moto. The downside would be when the model changes. However, good condition/near new used suspension is pretty cheap but holds relative value, and setting up is also pretty cheap with kits from Suspension101/Krooztune. Lose a lot less money than the depreciation of the second bike and the additional time/money to maintain.
mtndoc_842
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2/14/2022 5:17pm
I used to pay for the XC models for off road racing but the difference in price isn't worth it so now I just buy the MX versions. $1000 difference in cost for suspension you probably will change anyways, an 18" wheel you will probably never notice, and a big tank you could grab for a few hundred bucks and swap over to new bikes.
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liver
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2/14/2022 5:27pm
A properly XC bike can work good enough on the track, while a properly setup SX bike is not fun to ride offroad. Generally, you want an SX bike to rebound slow, while a XC bike should rebound fast

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