Wow a different perspective on Neck Braces

RandyS
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Edited Date/Time 1/27/2012 11:11am
Reed, says he believes the neck brace contributed or caused McFarlanes death. Many of us here have questioned the claims made by Leatt, but I believe this is the first time I've heard talk of the brain taking more trauma. Makes as much or more sense as the claims to the positive by Leatt.
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EastFlorida
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11/7/2011 7:38pm
Seems like a "damned if you do and a damned if you don't" argument. I doubt we'll have any true studies to support a position either way any time soon.
scooter5002
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11/7/2011 7:45pm
Perhaps some validity to this, but if it keeps 500 guys out of wheelchairs and one guy gets killed, it's a tradeoff. Same as seatbelts in cars, blah, blah, blah. I firmly believe the day I bought my Leatt and wore it, had I not had it on, I'd be in a wheelchair. Tapped in 5th gear on my 450 in sand 2 1/2 years ago, slammed into the ground head and shoulder sideways and upside down. In so much pain for the next 6 weeks I was hoping there was no permanent damage. Neck, shoulders, back. Unbelievable. If I was that beat up WITH the Leatt, how bad would it have been without it? Saved the rest of my life, I'm sure.
11/7/2011 7:53pm
As Reed was saying those things about the Leatte on the show, i was picturing the CEO of Leatte doing an Ari Gold in his offices... Damage Control dot com.

The Shop

RandyS
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11/7/2011 7:54pm
T Man 345 wrote:
As Reed was saying those things about the Leatte on the show, i was picturing the CEO of Leatte doing an Ari Gold in his offices...
As Reed was saying those things about the Leatte on the show, i was picturing the CEO of Leatte doing an Ari Gold in his offices... Damage Control dot com.
I think he go pushed into saying more than he wanted to.
RaceFace
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11/7/2011 7:55pm
I am never going to understand why some people hate them neckbraces so much. Even if it is true (Chad's belief), there are also many instances where seatbelts were responsible for an accident victim's death. Some instances even where being "thrown clear" is the reason the person lived. Doesn't make the seatbelt a bad thing. When large impact forces are extolled on the human body, bad things are going to happen. Sometimes even, the protective devices do more damage then good....when the right circumstances exist.
RandyS
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11/7/2011 7:59pm
RaceFace wrote:
I am never going to understand why some people hate them neckbraces so much. Even if it is true (Chad's belief), there are also many instances...
I am never going to understand why some people hate them neckbraces so much. Even if it is true (Chad's belief), there are also many instances where seatbelts were responsible for an accident victim's death. Some instances even where being "thrown clear" is the reason the person lived. Doesn't make the seatbelt a bad thing. When large impact forces are extolled on the human body, bad things are going to happen. Sometimes even, the protective devices do more damage then good....when the right circumstances exist.
There are years of studies with seatbelts. Neck Braces have people who claim it saved their life, or kept them out of a chair. It's faith, pure and simple. Nothing more.
San Miguel
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11/7/2011 8:03pm
RaceFace wrote:
I am never going to understand why some people hate them neckbraces so much. Even if it is true (Chad's belief), there are also many instances...
I am never going to understand why some people hate them neckbraces so much. Even if it is true (Chad's belief), there are also many instances where seatbelts were responsible for an accident victim's death. Some instances even where being "thrown clear" is the reason the person lived. Doesn't make the seatbelt a bad thing. When large impact forces are extolled on the human body, bad things are going to happen. Sometimes even, the protective devices do more damage then good....when the right circumstances exist.
Exactly it all depends on the dynamic of the crash and all the factors involved...hell, if you fall down the stairs wearing a Leatt if you hit the deck at the right angle you're dead. bottom line is that protective equipment, no matter how good or how much of it you are wearing, can only do so much..
akmx17
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11/7/2011 8:04pm
RaceFace wrote:
I am never going to understand why some people hate them neckbraces so much. Even if it is true (Chad's belief), there are also many instances...
I am never going to understand why some people hate them neckbraces so much. Even if it is true (Chad's belief), there are also many instances where seatbelts were responsible for an accident victim's death. Some instances even where being "thrown clear" is the reason the person lived. Doesn't make the seatbelt a bad thing. When large impact forces are extolled on the human body, bad things are going to happen. Sometimes even, the protective devices do more damage then good....when the right circumstances exist.
RandyS wrote:
There are years of studies with seatbelts. Neck Braces have people who claim it saved their life, or kept them out of a chair. It's faith...
There are years of studies with seatbelts. Neck Braces have people who claim it saved their life, or kept them out of a chair. It's faith, pure and simple. Nothing more.
bingo
DavidR
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11/7/2011 8:04pm
Unfortunately, when something bad happens to a loved one we need to point fingers and assign blame to help us try and understand why it happened. There always has to be someone or something at fault it seems.
Wandell
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11/7/2011 8:05pm
There are also a lot of people that don't believe in seatbelts, in spite of decades of testing, studies and crash results.
steve_97060
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11/7/2011 8:08pm
people always bring up the seatbelt analogy, but seatbelts have decades of testing behind them, where is the testing on the leatt?
hey_man
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11/7/2011 8:29pm
people always bring up the seatbelt analogy, but seatbelts have decades of testing behind them, where is the testing on the leatt?
Where is the testing on taping rocks to your bike?

A neck brace reduces the degree of hyperflexion/hyperextension of the cervical spine. It does not prevent head injuries. The cause of death was a head injury, not a cord injury. Maybe we should all stop wearing helmets. Andrew had a helmet on, but still died of a head injury.
steve_97060
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11/7/2011 8:37pm Edited Date/Time 11/7/2011 8:37pm
people always bring up the seatbelt analogy, but seatbelts have decades of testing behind them, where is the testing on the leatt?
hey_man wrote:
Where is the testing on taping rocks to your bike? A neck brace reduces the degree of hyperflexion/hyperextension of the cervical spine. It does not prevent...
Where is the testing on taping rocks to your bike?

A neck brace reduces the degree of hyperflexion/hyperextension of the cervical spine. It does not prevent head injuries. The cause of death was a head injury, not a cord injury. Maybe we should all stop wearing helmets. Andrew had a helmet on, but still died of a head injury.
usually followed by the "might as well quit wearing helmets" argument..
seth505
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11/7/2011 8:39pm
hey_man wrote:
Where is the testing on taping rocks to your bike? A neck brace reduces the degree of hyperflexion/hyperextension of the cervical spine. It does not prevent...
Where is the testing on taping rocks to your bike?

A neck brace reduces the degree of hyperflexion/hyperextension of the cervical spine. It does not prevent head injuries. The cause of death was a head injury, not a cord injury. Maybe we should all stop wearing helmets. Andrew had a helmet on, but still died of a head injury.
LOL!! funny cuz its true (the first part made me lol, to be clear)
11/7/2011 8:41pm
hey_man wrote:
Where is the testing on taping rocks to your bike? A neck brace reduces the degree of hyperflexion/hyperextension of the cervical spine. It does not prevent...
Where is the testing on taping rocks to your bike?

A neck brace reduces the degree of hyperflexion/hyperextension of the cervical spine. It does not prevent head injuries. The cause of death was a head injury, not a cord injury. Maybe we should all stop wearing helmets. Andrew had a helmet on, but still died of a head injury.
I was under the impression that the theory is that the leatt lifts the helmet off your head slightly when you ball up into it, so when your head finally makes contact with the ground the helmet builds up some momentum into your skull, causing a worse head injury. Not sure if I actually believe that, it is what I just got out of peoples arguments.
RaceFace
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11/7/2011 8:46pm
people always bring up the seatbelt analogy, but seatbelts have decades of testing behind them, where is the testing on the leatt?
hey_man wrote:
Where is the testing on taping rocks to your bike? A neck brace reduces the degree of hyperflexion/hyperextension of the cervical spine. It does not prevent...
Where is the testing on taping rocks to your bike?

A neck brace reduces the degree of hyperflexion/hyperextension of the cervical spine. It does not prevent head injuries. The cause of death was a head injury, not a cord injury. Maybe we should all stop wearing helmets. Andrew had a helmet on, but still died of a head injury.
Yes! Plenty of helmetless streetbike guys know someone that died because they had a helmet on. I bet someone somewhere did indeed die in a low speed crash because the helmet caught something at the right angle, twisted and snapped the neck. But of course helmets do work the vast majority of the time.

What exactly is there to test on seatbelts anyway? If you're wearing one and hit a tree at 40 mph, the impact may be enough to tear your aorta..... a seatbelt caused death? Seatbelts are simple, they restrain you in certain lower speed crashes improving your chances of surviving. Similarly, the Leatt is a simple device that anyone can see what it is designed to do. There are no claims that it will prevent all injuries in all circumstances involving the neck. Yet we need millions of dollars in testing to "prove" that they can be helpful? To me that is like needing testing to show that a chest protector is going to help lessen the impact of rock filled roost, or testing that goggles will prevent dirt from entering the eyes. Common sense dictates that it is an AID to protection, not a foolproof guarantee.
PaleBlue
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11/7/2011 11:35pm
people always bring up the seatbelt analogy, but seatbelts have decades of testing behind them, where is the testing on the leatt?
hey_man wrote:
Where is the testing on taping rocks to your bike? A neck brace reduces the degree of hyperflexion/hyperextension of the cervical spine. It does not prevent...
Where is the testing on taping rocks to your bike?

A neck brace reduces the degree of hyperflexion/hyperextension of the cervical spine. It does not prevent head injuries. The cause of death was a head injury, not a cord injury. Maybe we should all stop wearing helmets. Andrew had a helmet on, but still died of a head injury.
RaceFace wrote:
Yes! Plenty of helmetless streetbike guys know someone that died because they had a helmet on. I bet someone somewhere did indeed die in a low...
Yes! Plenty of helmetless streetbike guys know someone that died because they had a helmet on. I bet someone somewhere did indeed die in a low speed crash because the helmet caught something at the right angle, twisted and snapped the neck. But of course helmets do work the vast majority of the time.

What exactly is there to test on seatbelts anyway? If you're wearing one and hit a tree at 40 mph, the impact may be enough to tear your aorta..... a seatbelt caused death? Seatbelts are simple, they restrain you in certain lower speed crashes improving your chances of surviving. Similarly, the Leatt is a simple device that anyone can see what it is designed to do. There are no claims that it will prevent all injuries in all circumstances involving the neck. Yet we need millions of dollars in testing to "prove" that they can be helpful? To me that is like needing testing to show that a chest protector is going to help lessen the impact of rock filled roost, or testing that goggles will prevent dirt from entering the eyes. Common sense dictates that it is an AID to protection, not a foolproof guarantee.
Woah! Raceface, far to sensible for here....

(followed by the usual level of intellect - Sherwood. So Leatts are not expensive enough for you yet? )

If a person's not bright enough to work it out for themself, their neck's probably not worth worrying about anyway.
Crush
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11/7/2011 11:41pm
Chad is also close with the Moss boys and they've had a few back injuries up high where supposedly a neck brace loads up the spine and breaks it there....

Either way, probably not the best thing to bash a company in public... People are a little over litigious in the USA
WhKnuckle
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11/8/2011 2:22am
You can look at the Leatt design and make some common-sense observations:

It obviously prevents the head from rotating, which means the head will absorb more shock when it stops rotating;

It obviously transfers and multiplies force to the spine and sternum (multiplication through the leverage associated to a force applied to the head and the distance between the force vector to the head and the neck brace bearing on the spine or sternum);

On the plus side, it absolutely, clearly will protect the neck from a twisting breakage in an over-rotation event.

So wear it, don't wear it, it's up to you. Or pick one of the others, like the Omega, which is totally different design, probably isn't quite as effective in protecting the neck but is less likely to do damage to other parts of the body. I choose not to wear one, but I'm glad they're out there on the market. My son wears an Omega. They're both good efforts, and a worthy cause. And any estimate of the brace's effect on a particular crash is purely speculation, nobody ever knows for sure.
DrSweden
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11/8/2011 2:31am
There are some questions that most likely will be answered in the future, but Reed not wearing one and blaming his friends death because of it sounds like he reacts solely out of emotions, which is understandable when someone close die.

For me, what Chad Reed says about cornering, jumping or riding in general I tend to listen to. What Chad Reed says about physics, safety gear, sports medicine and research I tend to ignore...
Robgvx
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11/8/2011 4:43am Edited Date/Time 11/8/2011 4:43am
I wonder, when Chad was flying through the air at Millville, if he was thinking "I'm sure glad I don't have that stupid Leatt on"?
Flip109
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11/8/2011 5:15am
When the whole neck brace thing exploded I was first in line to get my son and myself the Leatt brace. Because I'll be dammed if either one of us is ever going to be laying on the track paralyzed when there was a piece of equipment out there designed to help prevent just that. However I did go over the bars a few years back and head planted into the ground. The helmet drove into the front part of my leatt brace causing it to crack my sternum. OUCH. I had to sleep sitting up on the couch for two weeks and couldn't ride or do much for many more to follow. I think the Leatt is to high in the front. I will probably go with the Alpinestars brace next because it is more low profile in the front. I was wearing a bell moto 8 helmet and they are also a little bigger in the front face mask. This combination I felt contributed to my injury. Anyways that’s my personal experience with the Leatt. Yea they can cause different injurys as apposed to not wearing one. My whole goal however is to prevent the worst one possible.
DrSweden
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11/8/2011 5:44am
Again, I assume everything will get sorted out in the future, and it stinks to be a crash test dummy until then. Also one might wonder if there's something going on behind the scenes, when top guys goes from wearing to not wearing them? But I guess as long as some of these people still uses them, we can more easily dismiss the drop outs, but if this trend spreads I guess we need to start asking questions.

My view is that these guys are guided by cash more than anything, which could shred some light over the fact that a majority seems to dig arai and shoei but these are still not the most common brand on the circuit?
bt260
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11/8/2011 5:44am
It seems one of the more common injuries "caused" by a Leatt is to the T8-T9 vertebrae. The very first time I wore mine, I crashed and ended up with compression fractures to those very vertebrae. Here's the funny part, I didn't land head first. In fact I landed ass first and broke my sacrum (just above the tailbone) as well. My helmet never even touched the ground. I can see where the load transfered from the neck is directed to the sternum/spine, but there's so much shit going on when we hit the deck, who knows what's causing what?

I was on the fence about neck braces in general. The lack of independent studies is definitely cause for concern. I have compression fractured my C5 vertebrae before, maybe a brace would have prevented that, maybe it would have broke my sternum instead. Who knows? I bought a Leatt at the end of September from a friend who was getting out of racing. First ride (October 1st) with it yielded me a broken back through no fault of the brace.

I'm still on the fence....
Hut
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11/8/2011 5:57am
No one has to agree with Reed. He has more than enough experience to form an opinion.
11/8/2011 6:25am
hey_man wrote:
Where is the testing on taping rocks to your bike? A neck brace reduces the degree of hyperflexion/hyperextension of the cervical spine. It does not prevent...
Where is the testing on taping rocks to your bike?

A neck brace reduces the degree of hyperflexion/hyperextension of the cervical spine. It does not prevent head injuries. The cause of death was a head injury, not a cord injury. Maybe we should all stop wearing helmets. Andrew had a helmet on, but still died of a head injury.
its not about it preventing the injury. its about it possibly CAUSING the injury.
flarider
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11/8/2011 6:32am
bt260 wrote:
It seems one of the more common injuries "caused" by a Leatt is to the T8-T9 vertebrae. The very first time I wore mine, I crashed...
It seems one of the more common injuries "caused" by a Leatt is to the T8-T9 vertebrae. The very first time I wore mine, I crashed and ended up with compression fractures to those very vertebrae. Here's the funny part, I didn't land head first. In fact I landed ass first and broke my sacrum (just above the tailbone) as well. My helmet never even touched the ground. I can see where the load transfered from the neck is directed to the sternum/spine, but there's so much shit going on when we hit the deck, who knows what's causing what?

I was on the fence about neck braces in general. The lack of independent studies is definitely cause for concern. I have compression fractured my C5 vertebrae before, maybe a brace would have prevented that, maybe it would have broke my sternum instead. Who knows? I bought a Leatt at the end of September from a friend who was getting out of racing. First ride (October 1st) with it yielded me a broken back through no fault of the brace.

I'm still on the fence....
Sounds like that rear shelf may have become a shovel and dug in
DrSweden
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11/8/2011 6:38am
Hut wrote:
No one has to agree with Reed. He has more than enough experience to form an opinion.
Totally, but I feel at this point, his opinion shouldn't be valued higher than ours, until some real evidence emerge? Again, bad ass on scooter, not bad ass scientist...

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