Would bringing 250 2-strokes back help supercross?

nrosso391
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Watching old SX races lately. The guys had to have a lot more skill and talent to race those 250 2-strokes. I know not all Manufacturers make 250's anymore and a lot of you guys are going to say I'm beating a dead horse by bringing this topic up. But you have to admit they had to have more skill to ride those bikes, especially in Supercross. You had to be pinned on a 250 on those slick tracks to make the triple out of a turn. Nowadays the 450's are so rider friendly and powerful that you gas it on the base of a triple and you could over-jump... These guys can't ride these 450's to their full potential as they are, they're too powerful. The only time they go past second gear is the whoops, unless they jump through them like cowards. (another topic I'd rather avoid)

I just think it would help the actual racing of the sport. Also less crashes would occur being sort of restricted on power so you can't make that quad with a blip of the throttle like they do now. Just a thought.
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rmoto003
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3/7/2017 8:57am
Man, this topic gets really driven into the ground doesn't it
doghouse
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3/7/2017 9:10am
Personally, two stroke or four, they need to reduce the displacement from 450. It's pointless indoors. There's a reason they only ran a couple 500 SX's, it's just a waste.
Acidreamer
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3/7/2017 9:14am
It doesnt matter if it takes more skill to ride a 250. 250s are inferior bikes in every way. Only 3 companies make them so for kawi honda and zook to represent they would have the more powerful bikes and dominate. Look at RV ride and then look at MC ride. RV blows the doors off MC. You will never get a 250 to get to 65hp like the factory 450s. I can guaruntee you that the top pros ride those 450s like 125s. Look at tomac. He burns the shit out of his clutch from ripping like hes on a 125. Those guys would love more power.

As for this topic, its seriously beaten into the ground. 250s are a thing of the past like air cooled engines.

The Shop

DEMONDAVE
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3/7/2017 9:16am
250's no but 125's as a true feeder class .
I could do without the kids on 50's and chicks trying on riding gear to win something drop those add in 125's in a one moto main format.
feeder class into the 250 f west / east category
Ted722
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3/7/2017 9:19am Edited Date/Time 3/7/2017 9:22am
Change the rules and open 250 2-strokes to the 250 SX class. Just don't do this: 250 two-strokes can be used for competition by Americans only. Additionally, riders that had a top five finish in the Supercross series in the 250 class within the last three years will not be eligible to compete on a 250 two-stroke.
nrosso391
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3/7/2017 9:47am
Acidreamer wrote:
It doesnt matter if it takes more skill to ride a 250. 250s are inferior bikes in every way. Only 3 companies make them so for...
It doesnt matter if it takes more skill to ride a 250. 250s are inferior bikes in every way. Only 3 companies make them so for kawi honda and zook to represent they would have the more powerful bikes and dominate. Look at RV ride and then look at MC ride. RV blows the doors off MC. You will never get a 250 to get to 65hp like the factory 450s. I can guaruntee you that the top pros ride those 450s like 125s. Look at tomac. He burns the shit out of his clutch from ripping like hes on a 125. Those guys would love more power.

As for this topic, its seriously beaten into the ground. 250s are a thing of the past like air cooled engines.
Did you really just compare The King to RV based on the HP of the bikes? They aren't from the same era of racing. We aren't talking about making a 250 2 stroke get 65 HP. I'm talking about how the 250's are slower and require more skill and precision to race in Supercross. These 4 strokes make you lazy. You can't be lazy on a 2 stroke and win. And Tomac is the fastest guy right now but he's not riding the wheels off that thing, you can't. ITS TOO MUCH POWER FOR SUPERCROSS. They don't want more power they want a more rider friendly bike.
3/7/2017 9:52am
F.B wrote:
[img]https://i1.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/540/686/696.gif[/img]
Yep. Pretty much it.

A 125 class would be good but we won't see one and a 250 two stroke class would be pointless.
nrosso391
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3/7/2017 9:55am
F.B wrote:
[img]https://i1.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/540/686/696.gif[/img]
LaughingLaughingLaughingLaughingLaughingLaughing
tprice07
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3/7/2017 9:59am
Smaller cc bikes overall would help racing. Watch the 250s, they still battle from time to time. When did we see a 450 battle last?
3/7/2017 10:03am
Literally everyone wants the pros to race two strokes. Then everyone goes to a kawi or Honda dealer and buys a 450. See the broken logic here? Speak with your wallet.

If nobody buys four strokes, they'll quit making them.
nrosso391
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3/7/2017 10:14am
Literally everyone wants the pros to race two strokes. Then everyone goes to a kawi or Honda dealer and buys a 450. See the broken logic...
Literally everyone wants the pros to race two strokes. Then everyone goes to a kawi or Honda dealer and buys a 450. See the broken logic here? Speak with your wallet.

If nobody buys four strokes, they'll quit making them.
I agree 100%. Look at 2 stroke sales lately. Its becoming big again. People want the "old" 2 stroke because they are cheaper. Who wants to go out and spend $8000-9000 on a bike they need to replace in 2 years because of contingency? A lot of guys are saying forget contingency and buy a good 250 for less than $4-5K and dump less that a $1000 into it and you'll have a bike that just rips and costs less to replace parts and rebuilds. Its impossible to beat those prices on a 4 stroke.
nrosso391
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3/7/2017 10:16am
The only reason 4 strokes happened was because of politics and pollution BS. That's why they keep pushing them so hard.
DoctorJD
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3/7/2017 10:17am
Can we combine the, "when are 2-strokes coming back" and the, "when is James coming back" threads into one sub-forum? It would just be easier to have all of the ridiculousness in one nice, neat, package.

SEE ARE125
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3/7/2017 10:19am Edited Date/Time 3/7/2017 10:21am
DoctorJD wrote:
Can we combine the, "when are 2-strokes coming back" and the, "when is James coming back" threads into one sub-forum? It would just be easier to...
Can we combine the, "when are 2-strokes coming back" and the, "when is James coming back" threads into one sub-forum? It would just be easier to have all of the ridiculousness in one nice, neat, package.

So James is riding a 2-stroke at Daytona?!
NorcalVet
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3/7/2017 10:22am
4 strokes hook up so much more then 2 strokes w/ less skill or throttle control

.... and per the "science of supercross"
Have a broader torque curve....

Which helps mere mortals like us navigate practice track(s) obstacles or pros on a SX track.

I know it helps me. I would use my RMZ to get the timing down on some areas w/ a few sight laps. Then break out the rm to feel comfortable after I knew what speed or line selection was needed.

kott0n
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3/7/2017 11:06am
Acidreamer wrote:
It doesnt matter if it takes more skill to ride a 250. 250s are inferior bikes in every way. Only 3 companies make them so for...
It doesnt matter if it takes more skill to ride a 250. 250s are inferior bikes in every way. Only 3 companies make them so for kawi honda and zook to represent they would have the more powerful bikes and dominate. Look at RV ride and then look at MC ride. RV blows the doors off MC. You will never get a 250 to get to 65hp like the factory 450s. I can guaruntee you that the top pros ride those 450s like 125s. Look at tomac. He burns the shit out of his clutch from ripping like hes on a 125. Those guys would love more power.

As for this topic, its seriously beaten into the ground. 250s are a thing of the past like air cooled engines.
People seem to always forget the 2 strokes get the power in half the RPMs. This translates to explosive power that feels bigger than it is.

Its' not all about the peak power its also about the ride getting there, i.e. the curve.
Acidreamer
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3/7/2017 11:20am
Acidreamer wrote:
It doesnt matter if it takes more skill to ride a 250. 250s are inferior bikes in every way. Only 3 companies make them so for...
It doesnt matter if it takes more skill to ride a 250. 250s are inferior bikes in every way. Only 3 companies make them so for kawi honda and zook to represent they would have the more powerful bikes and dominate. Look at RV ride and then look at MC ride. RV blows the doors off MC. You will never get a 250 to get to 65hp like the factory 450s. I can guaruntee you that the top pros ride those 450s like 125s. Look at tomac. He burns the shit out of his clutch from ripping like hes on a 125. Those guys would love more power.

As for this topic, its seriously beaten into the ground. 250s are a thing of the past like air cooled engines.
kott0n wrote:
People seem to always forget the 2 strokes get the power in half the RPMs. This translates to explosive power that feels bigger than it is...
People seem to always forget the 2 strokes get the power in half the RPMs. This translates to explosive power that feels bigger than it is.

Its' not all about the peak power its also about the ride getting there, i.e. the curve.
I wasnt being that technical. The point is, 3 out of the 6 bike companies will STILL be running 450s much more powerful than the other 3's 2 strokes. you will see people going MCs speed from back in the day on the 2 strokes and then the other 3 brands will have RVs speed. Its completely unfair. Pro racing is nothing but the bike manufacturers bringing their top products to prove their bike is best. 2 strokes will never be "the best" these days.

And as someone else said, speak with your wallet and buy 2 strokes if youre really that into them.
3/7/2017 11:22am
would be cool to see a 250 2-stroke class the same as the ktm junior challenge is right now, you just pay some money to rent the bike every race, and all the guys are at the same bikes.
3/7/2017 11:27am
I'm going to go a different route here, why does everyone think there is something wrong with Supercross? There's nothing wrong with the current format, as long as I'm not in the stadium listening to the Monster commercial for 3 hours. Supercross is good, it's almost always been good except when they build a turd floater of a track. There is no problem with the format or the TV package.

The real problem with it is they have it packed with commercials, which pisses people off. Then to top it off, they keep raising prices to where the average person stops going and the stadiums have started getting empty. I would think that a sold out stadium at $15-50 depending on seats would be better than one less than half full at $40-150. More concessions and shirts sold as well. And I don't know how much they get for those live commercials, but I'm not sure they are worth the damage of people like me that refuse to go to a sx anymore because of them. I'm not going to pay $100 for my wife and I to go watch commercials. I quit going to airshows for the same reason. I refused to allow them at my track as well. Billboards, signs, banners are all okay, but to shove commercials down my throat at an event I'm paying to attend only serves to get me to stop going to those events.
Zycki11
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3/7/2017 11:32am
The original post was not about a comparison between 2 strokes vs 4 strokes. It was a question regarding racing, and the excitement based on the logic of bikes. Personally, I wish the top guys still had to race 250's. The aggressiveness is what caused mistakes and hard racing. Would I want to ride one? Hell no, then again, I am a believer that supercross should be the 125 class and the 250f class for "open". At the very least, 250f's and then 350's, and yes, I realize this will never happen.
BobPA
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3/7/2017 11:34am
Your opinion is invalid because you called someone a coward for jumping through the whoops.
FI2T
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3/7/2017 11:37am
It'd certainly fix the horrible sound.
Falcon
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3/7/2017 11:39am
If 450Fs were really too much for supercross, they'd be turning slower lap times than the 250Fs.

GangGreen
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3/7/2017 11:50am
Acidreamer wrote:
It doesnt matter if it takes more skill to ride a 250. 250s are inferior bikes in every way. Only 3 companies make them so for...
It doesnt matter if it takes more skill to ride a 250. 250s are inferior bikes in every way. Only 3 companies make them so for kawi honda and zook to represent they would have the more powerful bikes and dominate. Look at RV ride and then look at MC ride. RV blows the doors off MC. You will never get a 250 to get to 65hp like the factory 450s. I can guaruntee you that the top pros ride those 450s like 125s. Look at tomac. He burns the shit out of his clutch from ripping like hes on a 125. Those guys would love more power.

As for this topic, its seriously beaten into the ground. 250s are a thing of the past like air cooled engines.
Acidreamer you are incorrect in your statement, "250 2 strokes are inferior bikes in every way"

FOUR-STROKES ARE GIVEN A DOUBLE DISPLACEMENT ADVANTAGE !!!!

Obviously the four-stroke motorcycle required an enormous handicap in order to be competitive with the lighter, faster, less costly, two-stroke motocross machines in the late 1990’s. It seems that this now outdated rule is now causing the less expensive, and more reliable, two stroke machines to become eliminated. Eliminating two-strokes was never the intent of the rule !!! I think it’s time the AMA and MX Sports work to adjust this severely outdated “Double Displacement” rule.



1
p0wn
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3/7/2017 12:04pm
Just make the tracks slower so it's tighter racing.
nrosso391
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3/7/2017 12:27pm
Zycki11 wrote:
The original post was not about a comparison between 2 strokes vs 4 strokes. It was a question regarding racing, and the excitement based on the...
The original post was not about a comparison between 2 strokes vs 4 strokes. It was a question regarding racing, and the excitement based on the logic of bikes. Personally, I wish the top guys still had to race 250's. The aggressiveness is what caused mistakes and hard racing. Would I want to ride one? Hell no, then again, I am a believer that supercross should be the 125 class and the 250f class for "open". At the very least, 250f's and then 350's, and yes, I realize this will never happen.
Thanks for getting back on track. Yeah that's basically what I meant. I would love to see both 2 stroke classes back. Do 125cc - 150cc 2-stroke class and then. 250 open 2 and 4 strokes. As for the manufacturers who don't make the more powerful 2 strokes...to bad. Come out with one if you want to be competitive again. Put EFI in them finally. Someone has to. I think something like that would make the racing better just by making the guys have to finesse the bike more to negotiate a track. The 250 class right now has better battles because both riders involved, in said battle, have a hard enough time making the fast line obstacles. I absolutely hate restrictions. With that said, they can't even use all the power to their wrists on those 450's so I think they should back them down to 250s.
JM485
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3/7/2017 12:36pm
I'm going to go a different route here, why does everyone think there is something wrong with Supercross? There's nothing wrong with the current format, as...
I'm going to go a different route here, why does everyone think there is something wrong with Supercross? There's nothing wrong with the current format, as long as I'm not in the stadium listening to the Monster commercial for 3 hours. Supercross is good, it's almost always been good except when they build a turd floater of a track. There is no problem with the format or the TV package.

The real problem with it is they have it packed with commercials, which pisses people off. Then to top it off, they keep raising prices to where the average person stops going and the stadiums have started getting empty. I would think that a sold out stadium at $15-50 depending on seats would be better than one less than half full at $40-150. More concessions and shirts sold as well. And I don't know how much they get for those live commercials, but I'm not sure they are worth the damage of people like me that refuse to go to a sx anymore because of them. I'm not going to pay $100 for my wife and I to go watch commercials. I quit going to airshows for the same reason. I refused to allow them at my track as well. Billboards, signs, banners are all okay, but to shove commercials down my throat at an event I'm paying to attend only serves to get me to stop going to those events.
Thank you so much for this, I though I was insane for thinking basically the same thing. I still love going to the races, but the Monster infomercial the entire time has gotten really old, I'm about ready to bring rockstar stickers or something and stick one over every monster logo I see at the race just as a joke. Nothing wrong with the format to me, just need to get a change in scenery from the stupid green claw everywhere, that's why Daytona is always so refreshing.

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