Would MC still be King in 4 stroke era?

FARANG
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FARANG 8/25/2020 12:37am
8/25/2020 12:37am
Talent is talent. If MC was born in 95 he'd have mastered all the modern riding techniques and most likely be dominating.
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Crush
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Crush 8/25/2020 12:40am
8/25/2020 12:40am
IMO, the four strokes levelled the field.

They remove the advantage for anyone who is technically and fundamentally better skill wise, because they cover your mistakes more.

He'd still be MC, because the sport is so fucking hard, the elite are the elite, but he might not have had the same win count, because one of his primary advantages would have been lessened.
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AH387
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AH387 8/25/2020 5:28am
8/25/2020 5:28am
Looby321 wrote:
Lol Gretzky and Lemieux would get waxed in today’s age of hockey. The athletes of today’s game are Olympic status in physical endurance, strength, and skill...
Lol Gretzky and Lemieux would get waxed in today’s age of hockey. The athletes of today’s game are Olympic status in physical endurance, strength, and skill. They were not back in the day. The same applies to Mx.
Remember that time that Gretzky and Lemieux were in the Olympics and won gold? Lol.

I see your point but I think you are just placing older era athletes with what they had and know into today's era, assuming that they do not get that same knowledge or equipment. Todays athletes benefit from techniques that were pushed from the people before them. McGrath changed how people rode a bike, as did Stewart etc. So now people have copied the techniques. Just because every local 16yr old in Schoolboy can now scrub, they still aren't as fast as James Stewart. So you put someone with extreme talent into a different era, their progression and talent is still going to be higher than most. Imagine MC if he trained like every rider does now. You get what I'm saying?
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tjnel
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tjnel 8/25/2020 7:42am
8/25/2020 7:42am
RbR wrote:
MC completely changed the way riders hit jumps and other obstacles. Riders eventually were able to copy his technique but it took time and while everyone...
MC completely changed the way riders hit jumps and other obstacles. Riders eventually were able to copy his technique but it took time and while everyone else was learning MC's techniques, he was kicking their collective asses.
Dirty Points wrote:
I think that's my point. It seems like all the ways that riders "hit jumps and other obstacles" has less impact on the race now that...
I think that's my point. It seems like all the ways that riders "hit jumps and other obstacles" has less impact on the race now that everyone has loads of traction and power.

I see a lot of instances now where a rider doesn't hit a preferred rhythm/line, but still powers through a section or hits the next jump just fine.

But that precision that may no longer be fundamental really separated MC from the pack
McGrath won more Premier class Supercross titles than any other rider. He won 4 straight, then 3 straight in a stage of his career when most other riders retire. He won every SX race but one in ‘96. He absolutely dominated his competition. It was on par with RC’s dominance. The only reason RC is the GOAT is because he did it indoors and out. But McGrath is the greatest Supercross rider of all time. If you think he wouldn’t cut it in any era you should gtfo, because you’re disrespecting the greatest Supercross rider to ever have lived.
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Mit12
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Mit12 8/25/2020 4:13pm
8/25/2020 4:13pm
Mit12 wrote:
Jeremy was riding part time and did well is SX on a 450, that should tell ya something. The greats can ride anything.
Dirty Points wrote:
But would his technical skill regularly surpass a current "point-and-shoot" kid?
Were you around when Mc dominated? Mc was the master of changing directions and his corner speed was amazing. He had no weaknesses at all.
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cable
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cable 8/25/2020 7:24pm
8/25/2020 7:24pm
mcgrath starts 5th and skills his way to 3rd. nothing against the king, but in the 4 stroke era, where bikes are closer, i think the races would be more like this one.. 1:32 for the main event.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1b1vkn2Xig0
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Ramrod
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Ramrod 8/25/2020 7:36pm
8/25/2020 7:36pm
profeshenal125 wrote:
MC mechanic had a few screwups in 97. I was at Indy, MC is looking faster than anyone. Then he drops way back, clutch was gone...
MC mechanic had a few screwups in 97. I was at Indy, MC is looking faster than anyone. Then he drops way back, clutch was gone. That ball bearing was missing on the clutch arm. Gainsville he forgot to mix oil with the gas. Ruined the race engine, other cylinder wasn,t much. Sounded and Looked slow, almost beat Emig tho.
Is this true? At Gainsville did his team really forget to add oil to the fuel and mix? I don’t remember that but heads would have to roll after a mistake like that!!
CG118
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CG118 8/25/2020 7:38pm
8/25/2020 7:38pm
RbR wrote:
MC completely changed the way riders hit jumps and other obstacles. Riders eventually were able to copy his technique but it took time and while everyone...
MC completely changed the way riders hit jumps and other obstacles. Riders eventually were able to copy his technique but it took time and while everyone else was learning MC's techniques, he was kicking their collective asses.
Dirty Points wrote:
I think that's my point. It seems like all the ways that riders "hit jumps and other obstacles" has less impact on the race now that...
I think that's my point. It seems like all the ways that riders "hit jumps and other obstacles" has less impact on the race now that everyone has loads of traction and power.

I see a lot of instances now where a rider doesn't hit a preferred rhythm/line, but still powers through a section or hits the next jump just fine.

But that precision that may no longer be fundamental really separated MC from the pack
tjnel wrote:
McGrath won more Premier class Supercross titles than any other rider. He won 4 straight, then 3 straight in a stage of his career when most...
McGrath won more Premier class Supercross titles than any other rider. He won 4 straight, then 3 straight in a stage of his career when most other riders retire. He won every SX race but one in ‘96. He absolutely dominated his competition. It was on par with RC’s dominance. The only reason RC is the GOAT is because he did it indoors and out. But McGrath is the greatest Supercross rider of all time. If you think he wouldn’t cut it in any era you should gtfo, because you’re disrespecting the greatest Supercross rider to ever have lived.
Also, when MC decided he wanted to make a real effort for outdoors, he showed how dominant he could be. He was only limited by his desire.
profeshenal125 8/25/2020 9:11pm
8/25/2020 9:11pm
profeshenal125 wrote:
MC mechanic had a few screwups in 97. I was at Indy, MC is looking faster than anyone. Then he drops way back, clutch was gone...
MC mechanic had a few screwups in 97. I was at Indy, MC is looking faster than anyone. Then he drops way back, clutch was gone. That ball bearing was missing on the clutch arm. Gainsville he forgot to mix oil with the gas. Ruined the race engine, other cylinder wasn,t much. Sounded and Looked slow, almost beat Emig tho.
Ramrod wrote:
Is this true? At Gainsville did his team really forget to add oil to the fuel and mix? I don’t remember that but heads would have...
Is this true? At Gainsville did his team really forget to add oil to the fuel and mix? I don’t remember that but heads would have to roll after a mistake like that!!
You know how they test different cylinders. His race engine was blown, do to no oil in the gas. So MC ran a different cylinder at Gainsville. I was at Minneapolis sx, MC 1st win of 97. Lean tweeden said stick around people Jeremy has a surprise for you. After spraying champagne, etc. He hit the triple quite a few times, doing tricks, that was awesome. His mechanic was fired up and pumped, still later in the rig.
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VetMX.com
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VetMX.com 8/25/2020 9:13pm
8/25/2020 9:13pm
Yes. He would still be ahead of the curve.
mxtech1
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mxtech1 8/26/2020 10:38am
8/26/2020 10:38am
I think the better question is would MC still be King if he had to train like all of the other pros do now?

IMO, physical fitness, testing, and training are completely different now, more-so than the 4 stroke vs. 2 stroke debate. It's impossible to say whether or not MC would have had the gumption to train like Ricky did. I think we saw that as RC was coming up and finally knocked off MC. RC was a very skilled rider, but the reason why he closed the gap on MC so fast was because of the way he trained. Physically and mentally, MC could not match what RC had and I believe that would still be true if comparing MC & RC in their prime.

Now you look at the field, everyone trains hardcore and there is less skill gap from 1st to 20th than there was in the 90s.

If MC was racing today, i'm sure he would have the skill and talent to win races, probably championships, but in absolutely no way would we see such dominance that he was able to maintain in the 90's. In MCs day, he was such a better rider than most of the field that there was really only a couple guys that could challenge him on there good days.
tjnel
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tjnel 8/26/2020 12:20pm
8/26/2020 12:20pm Edited Date/Time 8/26/2020 12:24pm
mxtech1 wrote:
I think the better question is would MC still be King if he had to train like all of the other pros do now? IMO, physical...
I think the better question is would MC still be King if he had to train like all of the other pros do now?

IMO, physical fitness, testing, and training are completely different now, more-so than the 4 stroke vs. 2 stroke debate. It's impossible to say whether or not MC would have had the gumption to train like Ricky did. I think we saw that as RC was coming up and finally knocked off MC. RC was a very skilled rider, but the reason why he closed the gap on MC so fast was because of the way he trained. Physically and mentally, MC could not match what RC had and I believe that would still be true if comparing MC & RC in their prime.

Now you look at the field, everyone trains hardcore and there is less skill gap from 1st to 20th than there was in the 90s.

If MC was racing today, i'm sure he would have the skill and talent to win races, probably championships, but in absolutely no way would we see such dominance that he was able to maintain in the 90's. In MCs day, he was such a better rider than most of the field that there was really only a couple guys that could challenge him on there good days.
You talk about guys like Mike Larocco, Jeff Emig, Doug Henry, Kevin Windham, Ezra Lusk as if they aren't as good as the top competition now. I think that's delusional.

They rode in a different era so some aspects of the sport were different, and some people's strengths or weaknesses would shine more or less now than in other eras. But Larocco was fit as hell, a terrible starter, and usually the fastest guy in the last 10 laps of the race. Does that sound similar to anyone who races now??? There was a shift in training that happened in the 2000's, but I think it gets overhyped. Like, that's what RC (the GOAT) needed to beat the best ever in SX. And it got RC over that hump, but to think that the level was raised so much that MC wouldn't have been competitive, much less dominant, in another era seems insane to me.

You are talking about literally the best supercross racer of all time, by a longgggggg shot (the only people that even enter the conversation along with him are all time greats themselves), and you think he'd "probably" still win championships today? You could make a better argument that today is a relatively weak era. In any era you usually only get 1, maybe 2, that are head and shoulders above the competition. Today you have 3-6 legit title contenders (Tomac, Webb, Roczen, Anderson, Osborne, Musquin should all be in that conversation, depending on the series). If Tomac never "Tomac'ed" then I'd say he was the MC or RC of this era. But he does "Tomac", so this era is arguably weaker than eras past.

Here's another way to put it. McGrath was the best of anyone that ever came before him, so you'd have to believe there are like 3-4 guys active in pro SX right now, simultaneously, that are more freak athletes/competitors/racers than MC and everyone else that came before him. Seems unlikely to me.
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resetjet
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resetjet 8/26/2020 12:30pm
8/26/2020 12:30pm
If you out todays bikes on the tracks he raced on, its hard to say. It would be so much easier for his peers to compete. It may then have fit the style of a different rider. This is a question that cannot be answered.
tuttle425
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tuttle425 8/26/2020 1:10pm
8/26/2020 1:10pm
The question "Would MC still be King in 4 stroke era?" is not the right question to ask. It's highlighting the bike rather than the riders. The bike is meaningless. If MC rode today he'd be on a good bike just like he was back in the 90s. If you gave everyone from the 90s today's bikes, yes, MC would still dominate the way he did. I don't think there's any question.

If you ask "Would MC still be King in the modern era?" then the answers would be more like what we're discussing. The original question highlighted the changes in the bikes rather than the changes in riders/teams which IMO is the biggest change to the sports in the last 20 years.

In regards to the riders, they've all grown up watching MC, RC, Stew, etc and have emulated their styles. MC's style of riding was one of his massive advantages in the 90s. I think that would be diluted quite a bit against the riders of this era. The overall field is much deeper today than in the 90s. Would MC still get great starts almost every single race? Maybe, maybe not. That was another huge advantage of his.

There's also the tracks. IMO, tracks dont seem near as difficult or technical today as they were from the mid 90s to the early 2000s. That would be an advantage to the modern riders.

In the end, it doesnt matter. He wont 7 Supercross titles and is the best of all time in Supercross and he'd do damn well regardless of when he rode.
tjnel
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tjnel 8/26/2020 1:41pm
8/26/2020 1:41pm Edited Date/Time 8/26/2020 1:46pm
tuttle425 wrote:
The question "Would MC still be King in 4 stroke era?" is not the right question to ask. It's highlighting the bike rather than the riders...
The question "Would MC still be King in 4 stroke era?" is not the right question to ask. It's highlighting the bike rather than the riders. The bike is meaningless. If MC rode today he'd be on a good bike just like he was back in the 90s. If you gave everyone from the 90s today's bikes, yes, MC would still dominate the way he did. I don't think there's any question.

If you ask "Would MC still be King in the modern era?" then the answers would be more like what we're discussing. The original question highlighted the changes in the bikes rather than the changes in riders/teams which IMO is the biggest change to the sports in the last 20 years.

In regards to the riders, they've all grown up watching MC, RC, Stew, etc and have emulated their styles. MC's style of riding was one of his massive advantages in the 90s. I think that would be diluted quite a bit against the riders of this era. The overall field is much deeper today than in the 90s. Would MC still get great starts almost every single race? Maybe, maybe not. That was another huge advantage of his.

There's also the tracks. IMO, tracks dont seem near as difficult or technical today as they were from the mid 90s to the early 2000s. That would be an advantage to the modern riders.

In the end, it doesnt matter. He wont 7 Supercross titles and is the best of all time in Supercross and he'd do damn well regardless of when he rode.
So this is all basically just one big unfair fight? Where would MC stack up if you gave him only what he had in the 90's - his riding style from the 90's, his workout regimen from the 90's, etc - and you put him on the line on an engine he never raced in his prime, with people who literally developed skills based on watching him and the skills he showcased, plus other people who came after him and developed methods of riding that didn't exist when he was competing????? Yeah, in that case he may be at a disadvantage.

Sort of like how I could go back in time to before calculus was invented and look like a super genius?
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andymoto
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andymoto 8/26/2020 3:12pm
8/26/2020 3:12pm
Yes, in both SX and MX; likely even better in Natl's on current machinery.

Jeremy doesn't imo get enough credit for being a really fast National MX racer; 3rd O/A in 125's 1993, 3rd again in 250's '94; 250 Nat'l Champ '95, 2nd by 10 pts to Emig in '96 and 3rd on the '97 RM when most anyone in the top 10 could win a moto. JMO..
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