Works bikes in sand

Twiglet
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Twiglet
Edited Date/Time 9/26/2019 8:45am
I'm from motocross in the eighties when me and my mx buddies would drool over the works mx bikes of HRC. Theses bikes contained unobtainium parts and cost a fortune. How unobtainium are today's works bikes and how much of an advantage do you think they would have at Assen MXON. I know Herlings is a rider that comes around once in every 10-15 yrs but how much would his works bike help compared to others? This is in no way a question of Herlings ability but i'm just interested wether works bikes such as his are as trick as the HRC bikes of years past
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Phil109
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Phil109 9/25/2019 3:17pm
9/25/2019 3:17pm Edited Date/Time 9/25/2019 3:18pm
I don’t know, but a mostly production bike didn’t seem to matter when he came to Ironman and made everyone look like a novice lol
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Twiglet
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Twiglet 9/25/2019 3:23pm
9/25/2019 3:23pm
True, again i'm not having a go at Herlings ability, he is a beast and probably the fastest guy in the world at this time no doubt but my question on how different the works bike of today are and how much that would contribute to riding in sand.
Works bike from the heyday of mx haven't made a massive difference to results at in the eighties so I was wondering are they much different these days
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jorgechavez 9/25/2019 3:23pm
9/25/2019 3:23pm
Phil109 wrote:
I don’t know, but a mostly production bike didn’t seem to matter when he came to Ironman and made everyone look like a novice lol
Hard to make the case that a factory KTM is a "mostly production bike". I mean what would be production aside from the frame, swing arm and engine cases? Not trying to take away from what Herlings did that day as he took a bike he was definitely not used to and smoked everyone.
Twiglet
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Twiglet 9/25/2019 3:27pm
9/25/2019 3:27pm
I thought he had parts flown over including special frame for the american appearances, again not knocking I've been lucky to grow up and see unbelievable talent through the years and if you had access to works equipment then surely you have earned it.
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soggy
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soggy 9/25/2019 3:33pm
9/25/2019 3:33pm
the GP bikes are as close to an actual works bike as we have today. but they still aren't to the level of the one off custom bikes HRC had back in the day.
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zehn
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zehn 9/25/2019 3:38pm
9/25/2019 3:38pm
Twiglet wrote:
I thought he had parts flown over including special frame for the american appearances, again not knocking I've been lucky to grow up and see unbelievable...
I thought he had parts flown over including special frame for the american appearances, again not knocking I've been lucky to grow up and see unbelievable talent through the years and if you had access to works equipment then surely you have earned it.
Pretty sure he had his suspension flown over. He wouldn't have been able to use anything other than the stock frame or swingarm in AMA competition, beyond adding material to stiffen the frame.
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GaryC1
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GaryC1 9/25/2019 3:39pm
9/25/2019 3:39pm
Twiglet wrote:
I thought he had parts flown over including special frame for the american appearances, again not knocking I've been lucky to grow up and see unbelievable...
I thought he had parts flown over including special frame for the american appearances, again not knocking I've been lucky to grow up and see unbelievable talent through the years and if you had access to works equipment then surely you have earned it.
As far as I remember he had to use a stock frame and swingarm as per AMA rules, no exceptions. GP scene they can run custom anything I believe but rules in AMA are stricter which is what made his feat so much more impressive.
Twiglet
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Twiglet 9/25/2019 3:39pm
9/25/2019 3:39pm
on the GP bikes what is allowed in regards to engines as surely that would help with sand specific torque and power delivery. I just find that kind of thing interesting. Monster motors are king in all forms of motorsport. Controllable massive power is always a bit helpful
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zehn
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zehn 9/25/2019 3:43pm
9/25/2019 3:43pm
The AMA bikes are actually faster than GP bikes because of the differences in fuel restrictions
GaryC1
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GaryC1 9/25/2019 3:45pm
9/25/2019 3:45pm
Twiglet wrote:
on the GP bikes what is allowed in regards to engines as surely that would help with sand specific torque and power delivery. I just find...
on the GP bikes what is allowed in regards to engines as surely that would help with sand specific torque and power delivery. I just find that kind of thing interesting. Monster motors are king in all forms of motorsport. Controllable massive power is always a bit helpful
I think engine mods are pretty much unrestricted for both AMA and GP but in terms of comparing works and production bikes from back then to now, I reckon the gap has narrowed a lot more as there would be a lot more quality aftermarket options now compared to then but I am just hazarding a guess based on what I've seen posted about how trick parts were fitted to works bikes back in the day compared to production models whereas nowadays while factory bikes have a lot of nice stuff, it's not the same gap in technology or advancement.
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zehn
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zehn 9/25/2019 3:47pm
9/25/2019 3:47pm
GaryC1 wrote:
As far as I remember he had to use a stock frame and swingarm as per AMA rules, no exceptions. GP scene they can run custom...
As far as I remember he had to use a stock frame and swingarm as per AMA rules, no exceptions. GP scene they can run custom anything I believe but rules in AMA are stricter which is what made his feat so much more impressive.
They're actually allowed to add materials to the frames, but they can't take material away. There were lots of pictures of the RMATV guys adding braces to their frames this past summer
cable
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cable 9/25/2019 3:48pm
9/25/2019 3:48pm
On the pulp mx show, nick wey said he couldnt ride the KTM euro frame in a Euro SX. couldnt get it to turn, even with his parts on it.. They run a frame and setup that is set up for outdoors, as they are allowed to run a different frame. Is a good listen.
GaryC1
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GaryC1 9/25/2019 3:49pm
9/25/2019 3:49pm
GaryC1 wrote:
As far as I remember he had to use a stock frame and swingarm as per AMA rules, no exceptions. GP scene they can run custom...
As far as I remember he had to use a stock frame and swingarm as per AMA rules, no exceptions. GP scene they can run custom anything I believe but rules in AMA are stricter which is what made his feat so much more impressive.
zehn wrote:
They're actually allowed to add materials to the frames, but they can't take material away. There were lots of pictures of the RMATV guys adding braces...
They're actually allowed to add materials to the frames, but they can't take material away. There were lots of pictures of the RMATV guys adding braces to their frames this past summer
Ah good point, am I right in saying though that GP frames can be complete one-offs to suit each rider if needs be?
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Twiglet
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Twiglet 9/25/2019 3:49pm
9/25/2019 3:49pm
Is MXON an anything goes kind of deal for bikes. the reason I ask is because I've ridden a few sand tracks in my youth, was never good enough for any kind of sponsorship but I was a rocket off the starts and on long starts it was frustrating to get overhauled by guys on sponsored machinery. I'm not delusional as these guys kicked my ass all the time but at times it was really telling how quick their motors were I'm just curious how much difference it makes when elite riders are on track,especially sand together
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Twiglet
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Twiglet 9/25/2019 3:53pm
9/25/2019 3:53pm
GaryC1 wrote:
I think engine mods are pretty much unrestricted for both AMA and GP but in terms of comparing works and production bikes from back then to...
I think engine mods are pretty much unrestricted for both AMA and GP but in terms of comparing works and production bikes from back then to now, I reckon the gap has narrowed a lot more as there would be a lot more quality aftermarket options now compared to then but I am just hazarding a guess based on what I've seen posted about how trick parts were fitted to works bikes back in the day compared to production models whereas nowadays while factory bikes have a lot of nice stuff, it's not the same gap in technology or advancement.
Thanks, that's a good explanation of today's bikes
TSCHAM101
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TSCHAM101 9/25/2019 4:12pm
9/25/2019 4:12pm
Phil109 wrote:
I don’t know, but a mostly production bike didn’t seem to matter when he came to Ironman and made everyone look like a novice lol
While i will agree he kicked our ass that day.. but he also didnt have anything on the line other than pride.. Tomac had a title and 1 million dollars on the line to just finish the race... Roczen was still recovering/testing the bike.. And well Marv, was Marv coming from the back if i remember correctly.
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Moto Obsessed 9/25/2019 4:20pm
9/25/2019 4:20pm Edited Date/Time 9/25/2019 4:24pm
Herlings runs a longer frame. The stability it gives him in the straights is much greater than any negative impact it has on turning abilities, especially in the sand.

Aside from things like frame geometry, the Euros just flat out are smarter riders in the sand. At Red Bud MXdN last year, I clearly heard the difference between our USA riders in the turns in 2nd/3rd gear revving it out vs. guys like Coldenhoff and Herlings riding a gear higher gear lugging it smoothly, at a faster pace.
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Moto Obsessed 9/25/2019 4:23pm
9/25/2019 4:23pm
TSCHAM101 wrote:
While i will agree he kicked our ass that day.. but he also didnt have anything on the line other than pride.. Tomac had a title...
While i will agree he kicked our ass that day.. but he also didnt have anything on the line other than pride.. Tomac had a title and 1 million dollars on the line to just finish the race... Roczen was still recovering/testing the bike.. And well Marv, was Marv coming from the back if i remember correctly.
Please stop. You're just making it worse.
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Twiglet
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Twiglet 9/25/2019 4:26pm
9/25/2019 4:26pm
Moto Obsessed wrote:
Herlings runs a longer frame. The stability it gives him in the straights is much greater than any negative impact it has on turning abilities, especially...
Herlings runs a longer frame. The stability it gives him in the straights is much greater than any negative impact it has on turning abilities, especially in the sand.

Aside from things like frame geometry, the Euros just flat out are smarter riders in the sand. At Red Bud MXdN last year, I clearly heard the difference between our USA riders in the turns in 2nd/3rd gear revving it out vs. guys like Coldenhoff and Herlings riding a gear higher gear lugging it smoothly, at a faster pace.
Would engine setup/tune not contribute to this? If you ride the rough tracks in mxgp compared to the mostly bluelines that AMA run then would you not be able to use different engine configurations that full factory support would allow you to do which surely would have a quite significant impact, something ama riders would not need to or be able to do?
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Moto Obsessed 9/25/2019 4:34pm
9/25/2019 4:34pm
Twiglet wrote:
Would engine setup/tune not contribute to this? If you ride the rough tracks in mxgp compared to the mostly bluelines that AMA run then would you...
Would engine setup/tune not contribute to this? If you ride the rough tracks in mxgp compared to the mostly bluelines that AMA run then would you not be able to use different engine configurations that full factory support would allow you to do which surely would have a quite significant impact, something ama riders would not need to or be able to do?
I have no idea what you're even saying bro. "full factory support" has nothing to do with engine setup/tuning as it relates to US vs GP riders
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Huckster 9/25/2019 4:54pm
9/25/2019 4:54pm
TSCHAM101 wrote:
While i will agree he kicked our ass that day.. but he also didnt have anything on the line other than pride.. Tomac had a title...
While i will agree he kicked our ass that day.. but he also didnt have anything on the line other than pride.. Tomac had a title and 1 million dollars on the line to just finish the race... Roczen was still recovering/testing the bike.. And well Marv, was Marv coming from the back if i remember correctly.
Moto Obsessed wrote:
Please stop. You're just making it worse.
If memory serves me correctly, Marvin had JH covered in the 2nd moto but threw it away. He would've had the O/A. With that said JH was the fastest all day and came from almost every dead last to win that 2nd moto.
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Moto Obsessed 9/25/2019 4:59pm
9/25/2019 4:59pm
TSCHAM101 wrote:
While i will agree he kicked our ass that day.. but he also didnt have anything on the line other than pride.. Tomac had a title...
While i will agree he kicked our ass that day.. but he also didnt have anything on the line other than pride.. Tomac had a title and 1 million dollars on the line to just finish the race... Roczen was still recovering/testing the bike.. And well Marv, was Marv coming from the back if i remember correctly.
Moto Obsessed wrote:
Please stop. You're just making it worse.
Huckster wrote:
If memory serves me correctly, Marvin had JH covered in the 2nd moto but threw it away. He would've had the O/A. With that said JH...
If memory serves me correctly, Marvin had JH covered in the 2nd moto but threw it away. He would've had the O/A. With that said JH was the fastest all day and came from almost every dead last to win that 2nd moto.
Exactly. Although, saying that Marv had JH covered until he threw it away; and JH came from dead last to win the moto is quite the oxymoron.
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Huckster
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Huckster 9/25/2019 5:04pm
9/25/2019 5:04pm
Moto Obsessed wrote:
Exactly. Although, saying that Marv had JH covered until he threw it away; and JH came from dead last to win the moto is quite the...
Exactly. Although, saying that Marv had JH covered until he threw it away; and JH came from dead last to win the moto is quite the oxymoron.
Not really if you watched it... But ok
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tttrailhunter 9/25/2019 5:07pm
9/25/2019 5:07pm
Reed just said, everything gets changed, except the frame, swingarm and cases, and thats a jgr bike afaik.

even then they are allowed to add material and it would be relatively easy to make stock looking but different versions of those parts.

but no i dont think the big 4 J companies are making many handmade exotica like in the past.
omalley
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omalley 9/25/2019 8:23pm
9/25/2019 8:23pm
Phil109 wrote:
I don’t know, but a mostly production bike didn’t seem to matter when he came to Ironman and made everyone look like a novice lol
TSCHAM101 wrote:
While i will agree he kicked our ass that day.. but he also didnt have anything on the line other than pride.. Tomac had a title...
While i will agree he kicked our ass that day.. but he also didnt have anything on the line other than pride.. Tomac had a title and 1 million dollars on the line to just finish the race... Roczen was still recovering/testing the bike.. And well Marv, was Marv coming from the back if i remember correctly.
I might be inclined to buy that, but for the fact that Tomac wadded up while clearly riding over his head to keep up/gain on Herlings.
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davistld01
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davistld01 9/25/2019 9:27pm
9/25/2019 9:27pm Edited Date/Time 9/25/2019 9:28pm
tttrailhunter wrote:
Reed just said, everything gets changed, except the frame, swingarm and cases, and thats a jgr bike afaik. even then they are allowed to add material...
Reed just said, everything gets changed, except the frame, swingarm and cases, and thats a jgr bike afaik.

even then they are allowed to add material and it would be relatively easy to make stock looking but different versions of those parts.

but no i dont think the big 4 J companies are making many handmade exotica like in the past.
I’ll betcha if you crack open the cases and pull the jugs on most any American factory Honda, Yamaha or Kawasaki you’ll find more than a few one-off parts made a lot more bulletproof than the ones you get over a shop parts counter. They are probably more for durability than to provide any real performance gain though. I agree that they’re probably sure not anywhere near the trick handmade stuff on the GP bikes.
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teamddr
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teamddr 9/26/2019 12:55am
9/26/2019 12:55am Edited Date/Time 9/26/2019 12:57am
Moto Obsessed wrote:
Herlings runs a longer frame. The stability it gives him in the straights is much greater than any negative impact it has on turning abilities, especially...
Herlings runs a longer frame. The stability it gives him in the straights is much greater than any negative impact it has on turning abilities, especially in the sand.

Aside from things like frame geometry, the Euros just flat out are smarter riders in the sand. At Red Bud MXdN last year, I clearly heard the difference between our USA riders in the turns in 2nd/3rd gear revving it out vs. guys like Coldenhoff and Herlings riding a gear higher gear lugging it smoothly, at a faster pace.
Twiglet wrote:
Would engine setup/tune not contribute to this? If you ride the rough tracks in mxgp compared to the mostly bluelines that AMA run then would you...
Would engine setup/tune not contribute to this? If you ride the rough tracks in mxgp compared to the mostly bluelines that AMA run then would you not be able to use different engine configurations that full factory support would allow you to do which surely would have a quite significant impact, something ama riders would not need to or be able to do?
Herlings and Tc222 ran different motors last year
They where given choices of which motor
Toni didn’t like the more powerful peaky engine as it upset the bike coming off the turn( the guy is light in fairness)
Herlings said he wanted the engine with the most pony’s regardless of delivery. ( he’s a beast)
I would suspect Prado rides a TC type motor for the first year as it suits his style
I think Toni tried to run herlings spec motors this year
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Twiglet
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Twiglet 9/26/2019 1:12am
9/26/2019 1:12am
teamddr wrote:
Herlings and Tc222 ran different motors last year They where given choices of which motor Toni didn’t like the more powerful peaky engine as it upset...
Herlings and Tc222 ran different motors last year
They where given choices of which motor
Toni didn’t like the more powerful peaky engine as it upset the bike coming off the turn( the guy is light in fairness)
Herlings said he wanted the engine with the most pony’s regardless of delivery. ( he’s a beast)
I would suspect Prado rides a TC type motor for the first year as it suits his style
I think Toni tried to run herlings spec motors this year
That about sums Herlings up, give me everything and sort it out. Like I said, once in a decade type of talent, let's hope everyone at Assen stays upright and we get to see some good battles

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