Window’d KTM engine.

Forty
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10/13/2017 10:34am
richter28 wrote:
[img]https://p.vitalmx.com/photos/forums/2017/10/13/219956/s1200_20171013_112556.jpg[/img]


I love when I drive up to the house and there is a box of parts on the step.
reded
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10/13/2017 11:49am
richter28 wrote:
[img]https://p.vitalmx.com/photos/forums/2017/10/13/219956/s1200_20171013_112556.jpg[/img]


I never did see a final verdict, was this covered by KTM in any way?
danman
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10/13/2017 12:45pm
reded wrote:
I never did see a final verdict, was this covered by KTM in any way?
Yes. all of it from what I heard through a mutual friend.

The Shop

reded
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10/13/2017 1:34pm
Impressive company right there. You'd get more of a challenge than that from an automaker.
smoothies862
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10/13/2017 6:22pm
wow. other brands need to step up. hopefully this one runs forever for ya.
Mit12
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10/13/2017 11:11pm
Awesome result!
richter28
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10/24/2017 10:29pm Edited Date/Time 10/24/2017 10:30pm
Although 99 percent of the parts came 2 days after ktm was contacted, the intake rocker arm was backordered, so we worked on other things in the shop until we had everything. Well, it finally came today, so the rebuild begins tomorrow.
omalley
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10/25/2017 5:14am
reded wrote:
Impressive company right there. You'd get more of a challenge than that from an automaker.
You’re not kidding...and if the automaker did cover it, you’d likely get reman parts, not new...
pmshortt2
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10/25/2017 1:03pm
Hearing about the customer service of KTM is what makes me intrigued to choose them over other companies when purchasing a new bike next year. Either gonna get 450sxf or a 250sx Cool
T-Fish
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10/25/2017 1:14pm
richter28 wrote:
Although 99 percent of the parts came 2 days after ktm was contacted, the intake rocker arm was backordered, so we worked on other things in...
Although 99 percent of the parts came 2 days after ktm was contacted, the intake rocker arm was backordered, so we worked on other things in the shop until we had everything. Well, it finally came today, so the rebuild begins tomorrow.
Sweet!!!
10/25/2017 1:22pm
Acidreamer wrote:
Call it bullshit if you want. My kx manual says it right there pistons need replaced at 15 hours. Check the crank at 15 hours. Im...
Call it bullshit if you want. My kx manual says it right there pistons need replaced at 15 hours. Check the crank at 15 hours. Im pretty sure the engineers who designed the bikes know a lot more than you do. Do you see any pro teams running a race bike for 40 hours? No. You dont. Keep your bike fresh and you dont have to worry about it blowing up. If this guys ktm was running at the rev limiter for 43 hours his crank could have very well been out of spec. No clue till its torn down.
Engineers dont write the manuals. Bean counters worried about warranty issues do.

You can easily get 80 hours out of a 250F before a oil change. The manual wont tell you that. But it's true.

I'll agree with you on one thing, riders are notorious for over reving fourstrokes. Especially on the starting line. For no reason since everything is EFI.

You'd be surprised at how long a race team could get out of a motor if they werent under pressure to use all of their budget to ensure it wasnt shrunk the next year. Ive know of teams that have literally built motors, put them on the dyno, and rev'd them until the blew up. Day after day. Just to use up budget at the end of the season.
1
10/25/2017 1:29pm
Acidreamer wrote:
Its also costly to get a crank fixed. $300 rod and then the cost to balance and rebuild the crank is up to $600. Before replacing...
Its also costly to get a crank fixed. $300 rod and then the cost to balance and rebuild the crank is up to $600. Before replacing broken cases or a head. Its a gamble that doesnt make sense to take.
imoto34 wrote:
I am certain your just a baitin but.. if you are serious.. How many hours would you put on a 2 stroke piston before replacing? Twelve...
I am certain your just a baitin but.. if you are serious.. How many hours would you put on a 2 stroke piston before replacing? Twelve - Fifteen minutes?
Acidreamer wrote:
no more than 10. At the end of the day my bikes never blow up and are always fresh and reliable. People who push the service...
no more than 10.

At the end of the day my bikes never blow up and are always fresh and reliable. People who push the service limits are the ones that have problems. How can you seriously put 40+ hours on a bike and not even check your valve clearance?
Ive never blown up a motor. Ever. And it aint luck.

The OEM's love people like you because you waste money. But c'mon man. 10 hours on a 2 stroke piston? Why not just do a compression check and wait until compression drops to a certain threshold. I always knew EXACTLY what compression was a sign that the piston was ready to let go. At about 10-15 lbs less than normal, it was time for a new piston.

As for a crank, I knew they'd go after about 75 gallons of fuel. And this was on a fully modified engine.

Had I been going off of a manual's recommendations, geez, I wouldve wasted so much money.
10/25/2017 1:32pm
Acidreamer wrote:
But the difference is youre changing your oil filter more frequently than reccomended. I do the same. What if you decided to push your filter to...
But the difference is youre changing your oil filter more frequently than reccomended. I do the same. What if you decided to push your filter to 30 hours? Youre being safe rather than sorry. Thats how i treat everything on my bike and yes ill admit im more anal about it than most.

Service manual says to clean the air filter after every ride. Does that mean you ignore it and ride 10 times on 1 filter cleaning? No. Hell no.
Actually, I do.

I wait until the filter is actually dirty.

Go watch a World Enduro race sometime. The abuse those bikes are put thru is insane compared to what the common weekend warrior does. It really puts everything into perspective on what these bikes are built to handle.
10/25/2017 1:34pm
Motofinne wrote:
Acidreamer is clearly on acid. You can go 50h on a 450 piston without any problems if your riding style is with low RPMs. I would...
Acidreamer is clearly on acid.

You can go 50h on a 450 piston without any problems if your riding style is with low RPMs. I would actually say that 50h is early to change a 450 piston on a stock engine.
Piston?

I'd go that long before changing oil. For the very reason you said. The issue is revs. There is no reason to rev fourstrokes like most riders do.
mx317
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10/25/2017 1:36pm
Engineers dont write the manuals. Bean counters worried about warranty issues do. You can easily get 80 hours out of a 250F before a oil change...
Engineers dont write the manuals. Bean counters worried about warranty issues do.

You can easily get 80 hours out of a 250F before a oil change. The manual wont tell you that. But it's true.

I'll agree with you on one thing, riders are notorious for over reving fourstrokes. Especially on the starting line. For no reason since everything is EFI.

You'd be surprised at how long a race team could get out of a motor if they werent under pressure to use all of their budget to ensure it wasnt shrunk the next year. Ive know of teams that have literally built motors, put them on the dyno, and rev'd them until the blew up. Day after day. Just to use up budget at the end of the season.
80 hours before an oil change on a 250F? What are you smoking?
10/25/2017 1:37pm Edited Date/Time 10/25/2017 1:38pm
First, the ktm 450 is by far the most reliable 450 engine on the market right now. Ktm uses the best parts money can buy combined...
First, the ktm 450 is by far the most reliable 450 engine on the market right now. Ktm uses the best parts money can buy combined with incredible engineering.

When you upgrade other brands for reliability and performance you use the parts ktm comes with stock... prankl piston (CP billet in the 250 and 350)
Prankl rod (which by the way is beefier than the japense rods...not where ktm saved weight. German skf bearings in the engine and a clutch basket, inner hub, and pressure plate that never wear out or notch.
It's amazing

This guys failure: could be a defective part... it happens in all manufacturing.
Secondly... if the piston is excessively worn for whatever reason, it can rock too much and actually get stuck sideways. The joy of race style slipper pistons (all dirtbikes use).
It's also possible to have a cam chain/tensioner failure and the valves skip time and hit the piston - taking out rod, piston, cylinder, and most expensive of all the head assembly.

Seeing how his rod is snapped clean off, i would guess a defective rod.

It's laughable stating ktm isn't reliable. By far the best my shop has ever seen... no contest - with the best warranty support I have seen.
As to frequent rebuild intervals... not many people follow OEM manual suggestions, But more of them should.
99% this. (everything except the last sentence)

KTM (and the other Euro brands in general) use such higher quality metallurgy in their cases, cylinders, etc than anything the Japanese use.

Nobody should be questioning KTM quality. There's a reason they are more expensive. It's a higher quality product.

Nothing against the Japanese bikes but their focus is on excellent engineering to cover for cheaper materials.
10/25/2017 1:42pm Edited Date/Time 10/25/2017 1:43pm
mx317 wrote:
80 hours before an oil change on a 250F? What are you smoking?
OEM's do endurance testing on their bikes. Year round.

They ride them until something breaks. So they know what needs to be beefed up for the following year.

Take a guess as to what the average engine life is before a 250F blows up without an oil change.


Y'all wont believe it because that isnt want the owner's manual says. I didnt believe it either at first. But when explained to me who wrote the manual and why, it made sense. So I started pushing the boundaries slowly further and further. Ive never had a problem.

But again, I dont sit on the starting line free reving the bike for 10 minutes as if Im on a 2stroke with carbs that I need to keep crisp for a good start.
BobPA
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10/25/2017 1:44pm
Piston? I'd go that long before changing oil. For the very reason you said. The issue is revs. There is no reason to rev fourstrokes like...
Piston?

I'd go that long before changing oil. For the very reason you said. The issue is revs. There is no reason to rev fourstrokes like most riders do.
Dude. 80 hours on an oil change? You must not be paying for the engines. Look at how dirty the oil gets after only a few hours...filters only have a finite amount of surface area until they clog with clutch material, transmission burs, etc.

People rev 250f's because that is where they make their power, just like a 125....

You need to quit before you make yourself look like an even worse mechanic.
10/25/2017 1:58pm Edited Date/Time 10/25/2017 6:31pm
BobPA wrote:
Dude. 80 hours on an oil change? You must not be paying for the engines. Look at how dirty the oil gets after only a few...
Dude. 80 hours on an oil change? You must not be paying for the engines. Look at how dirty the oil gets after only a few hours...filters only have a finite amount of surface area until they clog with clutch material, transmission burs, etc.

People rev 250f's because that is where they make their power, just like a 125....

You need to quit before you make yourself look like an even worse mechanic.
Im not a mechanic. I listen to those who are. There are a lot of people in this thread pretending to be mechanics & engineers tho.

250's make plenty of power down low. It's easy to find if you upshift. Which most riders dont do. That's not a reliability or design flaw. That's a rider flaw.

If you want more power? Get a 450. A 250 is just a 250. And a lot of riders try to make it something it isnt by over revving the bike. That's not my opinion, that's the opinion of factory mechanics Ive worked with.

125's make their power up top. They are 2 strokes. Riding your 250F like a 2 stroke is why people end up having to change their oil & pistons so damn much. That's not how these bikes were designed to reliably function.

BTW, how am I a bad mechanic when Ive never lost a motor? You'd think I'd be the person you would want advice from. Not the people who rebuild motors more often than I pressure wash my bikes.
1
10/25/2017 2:07pm
Im not a mechanic. I listen to those who are. There are a lot of people in this thread pretending to be mechanics & engineers tho...
Im not a mechanic. I listen to those who are. There are a lot of people in this thread pretending to be mechanics & engineers tho.

250's make plenty of power down low. It's easy to find if you upshift. Which most riders dont do. That's not a reliability or design flaw. That's a rider flaw.

If you want more power? Get a 450. A 250 is just a 250. And a lot of riders try to make it something it isnt by over revving the bike. That's not my opinion, that's the opinion of factory mechanics Ive worked with.

125's make their power up top. They are 2 strokes. Riding your 250F like a 2 stroke is why people end up having to change their oil & pistons so damn much. That's not how these bikes were designed to reliably function.

BTW, how am I a bad mechanic when Ive never lost a motor? You'd think I'd be the person you would want advice from. Not the people who rebuild motors more often than I pressure wash my bikes.
I believe many dyno charts refute your claims with 250s have significant power down low.
1
BobPA
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10/25/2017 5:34pm Edited Date/Time 10/25/2017 5:41pm
Im not a mechanic. I listen to those who are. There are a lot of people in this thread pretending to be mechanics & engineers tho...
Im not a mechanic. I listen to those who are. There are a lot of people in this thread pretending to be mechanics & engineers tho.

250's make plenty of power down low. It's easy to find if you upshift. Which most riders dont do. That's not a reliability or design flaw. That's a rider flaw.

If you want more power? Get a 450. A 250 is just a 250. And a lot of riders try to make it something it isnt by over revving the bike. That's not my opinion, that's the opinion of factory mechanics Ive worked with.

125's make their power up top. They are 2 strokes. Riding your 250F like a 2 stroke is why people end up having to change their oil & pistons so damn much. That's not how these bikes were designed to reliably function.

BTW, how am I a bad mechanic when Ive never lost a motor? You'd think I'd be the person you would want advice from. Not the people who rebuild motors more often than I pressure wash my bikes.
Well I a man a mechanic, I have seen inside many an engine. I also have a descent understanding of engineering. Large bore, short stroke engines are not made for low RPM's. Have you ever ridden a 250f, at any kind of descent pace? If you short shift them, they will fall off the pipe just like a 125...granted not as bad.

Never losing an engine says nothing btw...just means you do not ride, are lucky, slow, always have a fancy new bike, or a combination of the lot. 40 hours on my kx250f and she broke a valve...sad day, but nothing I could do...taught me that even if a valve never moves they can break.

You are arguing a battle you already lost bro. Go hang with the boys who are blowing up supposed motors on a dyno for no reason...
1
10/25/2017 6:42pm
BobPA wrote:
Well I a man a mechanic, I have seen inside many an engine. I also have a descent understanding of engineering. Large bore, short stroke engines...
Well I a man a mechanic, I have seen inside many an engine. I also have a descent understanding of engineering. Large bore, short stroke engines are not made for low RPM's. Have you ever ridden a 250f, at any kind of descent pace? If you short shift them, they will fall off the pipe just like a 125...granted not as bad.

Never losing an engine says nothing btw...just means you do not ride, are lucky, slow, always have a fancy new bike, or a combination of the lot. 40 hours on my kx250f and she broke a valve...sad day, but nothing I could do...taught me that even if a valve never moves they can break.

You are arguing a battle you already lost bro. Go hang with the boys who are blowing up supposed motors on a dyno for no reason...
Nothing you could do? You mean floating those valves on the starting line had nothing to do with why your valve failed prematurely? SMH.

How much do you weigh? Any chance that your 250F's inability to pull you out of a corner without over reving has more to do with the fact that you are better suited for a 450?

Ive never had a 250F struggle or fall off the pipe. I also only weigh about 160 lbs. I dont get on a 150F and then bitch that it doesnt make power unless Im pinning it in 2nd gear everywhere around the track.


You keep sucking valves and blaming luck. I'll keep trusting the engineers that worked in OEM R&D departments and saving money and time on oil & pistons.
1
Trevor91
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10/25/2017 6:44pm Edited Date/Time 10/25/2017 6:44pm
Bruneval wrote:
Wasn’t joking when I said that this thread helped convince me to buy a new KTM. Picked this up last Saturday. [img]https://p.vitalmx.com/photos/forums/2017/10/11/219485/s1200_840A1E63_00B0_406F_9C90_3A1020C96C6D.jpg[/img]
Wasn’t joking when I said that this thread helped convince me to buy a new KTM. Picked this up last Saturday.



125 it looks? be careful we have a 17 and the transmissions seem to have problems. Ours had around 35 hours on it and blew up now its is being serviced by a local shop now all under warranty..
10/25/2017 6:53pm Edited Date/Time 10/25/2017 6:56pm
A lot of the parts on KTMs are being made in India now. Better metallurgy? Hardly. A buddy of mine bought his son a KTM 125, and the first day they rode it, beginner 14 year old mind you, the frame rails on the cradle under engine were smashed flat. The kid never bottomed out hard. These rails were like flat as a piece of paper. The dealer said a few ktms have done This
10/25/2017 6:59pm
A lot of the parts on KTMs are being made in India now. Better metallurgy? Hardly. A buddy of mine bought his son a KTM 125...
A lot of the parts on KTMs are being made in India now. Better metallurgy? Hardly. A buddy of mine bought his son a KTM 125, and the first day they rode it, beginner 14 year old mind you, the frame rails on the cradle under engine were smashed flat. The kid never bottomed out hard. These rails were like flat as a piece of paper. The dealer said a few ktms have done This
Interesting. Maybe they are using different foundries now.

The ones in easter Europe that they used to use werent held to the same strict environmental regs that other nations are forced to. So the quality was quite high of the metal.

Maybe that has changed with a move to India.
Markopolo400
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10/26/2017 8:26am
A lot of the parts on KTMs are being made in India now. Better metallurgy? Hardly. A buddy of mine bought his son a KTM 125...
A lot of the parts on KTMs are being made in India now. Better metallurgy? Hardly. A buddy of mine bought his son a KTM 125, and the first day they rode it, beginner 14 year old mind you, the frame rails on the cradle under engine were smashed flat. The kid never bottomed out hard. These rails were like flat as a piece of paper. The dealer said a few ktms have done This
I'm curious what your source is on this. Last I knew KTM frames were made in Austria, by WP. Source = https://www.cycleworld.com/2015/04/22/wp-factory-dutch-suspension-manuf…

Now to say where they get their raw Matl from, only the Manuf Eng/Purchasing employees of WP know that.

Bajaj is an Indian company, and a major holder in KTM, but not majority last I checked.

I would love to see pictures of these said frame rails.
mx317
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10/26/2017 8:30am
A lot of the parts on KTMs are being made in India now. Better metallurgy? Hardly. A buddy of mine bought his son a KTM 125...
A lot of the parts on KTMs are being made in India now. Better metallurgy? Hardly. A buddy of mine bought his son a KTM 125, and the first day they rode it, beginner 14 year old mind you, the frame rails on the cradle under engine were smashed flat. The kid never bottomed out hard. These rails were like flat as a piece of paper. The dealer said a few ktms have done This
Steel frame rails smashed flat as a piece of paper but never bottomed hard, I smell bullshit.
1
mx317
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10/26/2017 8:32am
Nothing you could do? You mean floating those valves on the starting line had nothing to do with why your valve failed prematurely? SMH. How much...
Nothing you could do? You mean floating those valves on the starting line had nothing to do with why your valve failed prematurely? SMH.

How much do you weigh? Any chance that your 250F's inability to pull you out of a corner without over reving has more to do with the fact that you are better suited for a 450?

Ive never had a 250F struggle or fall off the pipe. I also only weigh about 160 lbs. I dont get on a 150F and then bitch that it doesnt make power unless Im pinning it in 2nd gear everywhere around the track.


You keep sucking valves and blaming luck. I'll keep trusting the engineers that worked in OEM R&D departments and saving money and time on oil & pistons.
I would quit when you are not too far behind. You lost all credibility with your 80 hour 250F oil change interval.
1
seth505
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10/26/2017 9:32am
A lot of the parts on KTMs are being made in India now. Better metallurgy? Hardly. A buddy of mine bought his son a KTM 125...
A lot of the parts on KTMs are being made in India now. Better metallurgy? Hardly. A buddy of mine bought his son a KTM 125, and the first day they rode it, beginner 14 year old mind you, the frame rails on the cradle under engine were smashed flat. The kid never bottomed out hard. These rails were like flat as a piece of paper. The dealer said a few ktms have done This
mx317 wrote:
Steel frame rails smashed flat as a piece of paper but never bottomed hard, I smell bullshit.
Ya, that makes as much sense as saying you have a cracked piston but have never started the engine.

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