Windham and Musquin; best premier class riders without a premiere class title?

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6/8/2019 2:24 PM

St Ann More wrote:

Pourcel. Never reached his potential in the 450 class.

I feel like this one is a different discussion. On actual 450 results, he’s nowhere near the top. Had some good seasons but not in comparison to a string of 2nds by Marvin and Windham.

On what we know his talent and ability is/was, however, he is probably at the top. His entire 450 career was unorthodox and stop/start but he still did okay. He still showed why some of us thought so highly of him often in practice and what not and in some seasons impressive races.

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6/8/2019 3:50 PM

Brad460 wrote:

Sounds like you’ve concluded Marvin will never win a title...

agn5009 wrote:

He probably won’t.

Brad460 wrote:

He “probably” won’t? So you can’t even make a definitive prediction..just a half assed one..

Here we are talking about Marvin ...more

I’m not a psychic so I don’t know if he will win one or not. I just don’t think he will. That’s my honest opinion whether you like it or not.

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6/8/2019 4:50 PM

agn5009 wrote:

He probably won’t.

Brad460 wrote:

He “probably” won’t? So you can’t even make a definitive prediction..just a half assed one..

Here we are talking about Marvin ...more

agn5009 wrote:

I’m not a psychic so I don’t know if he will win one or not. I just don’t think he will. That’s my honest opinion whether you ...more

There are a couple of ways to look at it.

If you view him as the average 29 y/o rider who has been battling for championships in the premier class for the better part of a decade, his prospects are indeed grim.

If you view him as an outlier, who has swiftly accelerated from "Dungey's loyal wingman" to losing multiple championships by a point margin narrower than a single race in a mere *three years*, his prospects improve significantly.

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6/8/2019 5:18 PM

I'd like to see Marvin get one.

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6/8/2019 5:21 PM

Bradshaw by a mile in the US.

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6/8/2019 6:05 PM

Asselstine wrote:

Windham over Bradshaw for sure. Old boys always lookin through their rose colored glasses when they talk about Bradshaw. K dub ...more

Then you don’t know anything about Bradshaw. 19 wins in 4 seasons, won races when he was only 17. After 93 he burnt out and quit but he has (until Tomac) the most SX wins of anyone without a title. Has 29 mx/SX combined wins in basically only 5 seasons.

Unfortunately crashes, and probably the biggest choke of all time in 92 in LA took his biggest chance away.

Also, he won the Osaka SX when he was only 15, beating Ricky Johnson and the other biggest SX stars at that time. Imagine today a 15 year old amateur winning the biggest off season SX race in the 450 class beating ET, MM, KR, Webb etc.

Other than that I would agree MM and Windham, but MM has 2 world MX2 titles.

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6/8/2019 7:36 PM

Danny Magoo

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6/8/2019 7:48 PM

Ron Lechien. On his day, hands down the fastest rider in the world. See 89 Mxdn.

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6/8/2019 8:23 PM

Brad460 wrote:

He “probably” won’t? So you can’t even make a definitive prediction..just a half assed one..

Here we are talking about Marvin ...more

agn5009 wrote:

I’m not a psychic so I don’t know if he will win one or not. I just don’t think he will. That’s my honest opinion whether you ...more

freebroctickle wrote:

There are a couple of ways to look at it.

If you view him as the average 29 y/o rider who has been battling for championships ...more

I’d like to see him get one. I just don’t see it happening. Hope I’m wrong.

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6/8/2019 11:33 PM

Gerrit Wolsink

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6/9/2019 8:04 AM

Asselstine wrote:

Windham over Bradshaw for sure. Old boys always lookin through their rose colored glasses when they talk about Bradshaw. K dub ...more

Motohead279 wrote:

Then you don’t know anything about Bradshaw. 19 wins in 4 seasons, won races when he was only 17. After 93 he burnt out and ...more

In all fairness to KDUB, he had to race in arguably the fastest era in the sport's history, if we're talking about the top guys at least. RC, Stewart, and Reed are all legends and way more of a challenge than Tomac, Roczen, etc.

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6/9/2019 7:00 PM

Asselstine wrote:

Windham over Bradshaw for sure. Old boys always lookin through their rose colored glasses when they talk about Bradshaw. K dub ...more

Motohead279 wrote:

Then you don’t know anything about Bradshaw. 19 wins in 4 seasons, won races when he was only 17. After 93 he burnt out and ...more

NateDawg wrote:

In all fairness to KDUB, he had to race in arguably the fastest era in the sport's history, if we're talking about the top ...more

I totally agree, it depends on the era and competition. I was just responding about the comment about Bradshaw like he was over hyped.

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6/9/2019 7:09 PM

Musquin has never even won an outdoor overall, so not sure why you’d put him on any list.

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6/9/2019 7:29 PM

gnarwhip wrote:

Musquin has never even won an outdoor overall, so not sure why you’d put him on any list.

Go to the vault and see how wrong you are .

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6/9/2019 7:35 PM
Edited Date/Time: 6/9/2019 7:43 PM

Asselstine wrote:

Windham over Bradshaw for sure. Old boys always lookin through their rose colored glasses when they talk about Bradshaw. K dub ...more

Motohead279 wrote:

Then you don’t know anything about Bradshaw. 19 wins in 4 seasons, won races when he was only 17. After 93 he burnt out and ...more

Yeah wait a minute. Marv is a 2 time World champ. Great point. Why is he even in this thread? We're talking about guys that never won title
Edit: I see its who never won a premier class title. I think the thing with Windam or Bradshaw is they never won any titles. Ya Marv "only" has MX2 titles but they are a huge deal.

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6/9/2019 7:44 PM

Asselstine wrote:

Windham over Bradshaw for sure. Old boys always lookin through their rose colored glasses when they talk about Bradshaw. K dub ...more

Motohead279 wrote:

Then you don’t know anything about Bradshaw. 19 wins in 4 seasons, won races when he was only 17. After 93 he burnt out and ...more

cbuehler767 wrote:

Yeah wait a minute. Marv is a 2 time World champ. Great point. Why is he even in this thread? We're talking about guys that ...more

mx2 wouldn't be considered premier class

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6/9/2019 7:48 PM

Park Boys wrote:

It’s Bradshaw, none of the other guys were the guys. At different times in his career he was shockingly faster than everyone ...more

100% correct, it’s absolutely Damon Bradshaw.

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6/9/2019 7:48 PM

soggy wrote:

mx2 wouldn't be considered premier class

Yeah I caught that after fact. MX2 titles even 250 National titles are huge deals though. But yeah he said. premier.

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6/9/2019 7:54 PM

I know he didn't win a lot but if you're looking into points standings at the end of the season I feel like Andrew Short should be in the conversation

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6/9/2019 8:41 PM

cbuehler767 wrote:

Yeah I caught that after fact. MX2 titles even 250 National titles are huge deals though. But yeah he said. premier.

definitely.

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6/9/2019 9:28 PM

gnarwhip wrote:

Musquin has never even won an outdoor overall, so not sure why you’d put him on any list.

ATKpilot99 wrote:

Go to the vault and see how wrong you are .

450 overall. Prove me wrong.

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6/9/2019 10:30 PM

Markus422 wrote:

I know he didn't win a lot but if you're looking into points standings at the end of the season I feel like Andrew Short ...more

I like and respect Andrew, but I feel like consistency and runner-up spots open up the category too much for a guy like Shorty. Against the raw speed and ability of a very young Beast from the East, he just didn't have it. Shorty reminds me more of a Weston Peick. A guy who's going to give it all, finish near the top, and not embarrass the team or the brand. A solid top 3-8 guy, but not close to the speed we're talking about in this thread.

And if you're going to include him, why not Canard? Why not Ryno or Ferry? You could go even further back with guys like Matasevich and Larry Ward. The problem is you end up with too many guys who had top level speed and the ability to win . . . sometimes.

I will say Windham is the only guy I can remember ever tracking down RC in the outdoors, passing him, and setting sail. Washougal - 2001ish IIRC.

Marv - who knows? Dude rips hard when he's feeling it, but I feel like he lays up too much. (And I don't blame him a bit.) When the track gets sketch, when the alpha dogs are fighting, he kind of waits for his opportunity or wads it up. Sometimes the wait for it thing works, but more often it does not.

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6/9/2019 11:16 PM

gnarwhip wrote:

Musquin has never even won an outdoor overall, so not sure why you’d put him on any list.

ATKpilot99 wrote:

Go to the vault and see how wrong you are .

gnarwhip wrote:

450 overall. Prove me wrong.

2017 washougal 450 results

Well that took all of 5 seconds...
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6/10/2019 3:13 AM

gnarwhip wrote:

Musquin has never even won an outdoor overall, so not sure why you’d put him on any list.

ATKpilot99 wrote:

Go to the vault and see how wrong you are .

gnarwhip wrote:

450 overall. Prove me wrong.

He also won the overalls at Red Bud and Southwick in 18.

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6/10/2019 4:16 AM

Marv came into the season injured and made it interesting even though the other guy was ridiculously consistent, clutch, and lucky. If he rolls one rhythm lane, it's very likely he is defending a title in his 5th season.

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6/10/2019 5:00 AM

gnarwhip wrote:

Musquin has never even won an outdoor overall, so not sure why you’d put him on any list.

ATKpilot99 wrote:

Go to the vault and see how wrong you are .

gnarwhip wrote:

450 overall. Prove me wrong.

So confident, yet so stupid.

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6/10/2019 9:11 AM

Motohead279 wrote:

Then you don’t know anything about Bradshaw. 19 wins in 4 seasons, won races when he was only 17. After 93 he burnt out and ...more

cbuehler767 wrote:

Yeah wait a minute. Marv is a 2 time World champ. Great point. Why is he even in this thread? We're talking about guys that ...more

soggy wrote:

mx2 wouldn't be considered premier class

Yeah I caught the Premier class part of that after I wrote that.

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6/10/2019 9:38 AM

GODZILLA wrote:

I always thought about Musquin as being the new Bradshaw.
laughing

Tomac is the new Bradshaw. I explained exactly why in my Huffington Post article about the NJ Supercross back in 2017.

2017, Meet 1992: Supercross History Repeated Itself in New Jersey

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6/10/2019 10:20 AM

cbuehler767 wrote:

Yeah wait a minute. Marv is a 2 time World champ. Great point. Why is he even in this thread? We're talking about guys that ...more

soggy wrote:

mx2 wouldn't be considered premier class

Motohead279 wrote:

Yeah I caught the Premier class part of that after I wrote that.

When you think about it though it still puts him on another level because while it's not a premier class title it's still a major title. If I'm not mistaken he won his before the age rule also .

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6/10/2019 12:09 PM

soggy wrote:

mx2 wouldn't be considered premier class

Motohead279 wrote:

Yeah I caught the Premier class part of that after I wrote that.

ATKpilot99 wrote:

When you think about it though it still puts him on another level because while it's not a premier class title it's still a ...more

I agree that it’s a major title same. And yes the age rule was not in affect back then he just wanted to come over and try his hand in America.

His first world title I believe he was on a privateer/satellite Honda team and leading the championship, when mid season he switched to KTM because of better support. I believe there was a big lawsuit over it.

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