Windham and Musquin; best premier class riders without a premiere class title?

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6/8/2019 4:53 AM
Edited Date/Time: 6/8/2019 4:54 AM

Kevin Windham and Marvin Musquin never achieved a premiere class title but, both riders were runner-up in several seasons. Marvin still has a solid chance as still shows tremendous speed at most races.

K-Dub achieved success in more seasons (so far) but, Marvin has only finished off the podium in the premier class during his first season on a 450.

Windham results from The Vault: https://vault.racerxonline.com/rider/kevin-windham/points
Musquin results from The Vault: https://vault.racerxonline.com/rider/marvin-musquin/points


Although he will never eclipse Windham in popularity, if Marvin can achieve the same level of success during the next 4 seasons will he surpass Windham as the most successful rider without a title?

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Long Live the 2 Stroke!

6/8/2019 5:03 AM

Probably . Ezra Lusk comes to mind in SX , not so much outdoors. Also Damon Bradshaw but I'd have to agree with Windham and Musquin. Sylvain Geboers and Kurt Nicoll on the other side of the pond.

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6/8/2019 5:04 AM

For sure.

Josh Coppins in the GPs without a doubt.

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6/8/2019 5:06 AM

Ray_MXS wrote:

For sure.

Josh Coppins in the GPs without a doubt.

Yep . Forgot about him.

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6/8/2019 5:11 AM

Interesting comparison.

Both were respectful guys as well.

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6/8/2019 5:57 AM

Clément Desalle?

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6/8/2019 5:58 AM

Pourcel. Never reached his potential in the 450 class.

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6/8/2019 6:02 AM

I'd have to do some checking, but I'd be willing to bet that Bradshaw has more wins than both of them combined. IMO, he should be at the top of the list, at the very least he should be ahead of K-dub. No disrespect to K-dub, but he isn't in the same class as Bradshaw.

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6/8/2019 6:23 AM

NeKawBoy wrote:

Kevin Windham and Marvin Musquin never achieved a premiere class title but, both riders were runner-up in several seasons. ...more

Marv isn't racing 4 more seasons, I can guarantee that.

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6/8/2019 6:28 AM
Edited Date/Time: 6/8/2019 6:30 AM

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6/8/2019 6:29 AM

Bradshaw above Kevin and Marvin, Marvin above Kevin. Kevin and Ezra on par...based on how far off the fastest at the time were.

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6/8/2019 7:00 AM

It’s Bradshaw, none of the other guys were the guys. At different times in his career he was shockingly faster than everyone else. Remember what Bradshaw did in his rookie year before his injuries plus he was 17 I believe.

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6/8/2019 7:02 AM

Sounds like you’ve concluded Marvin will never win a title...

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6/8/2019 7:13 AM

Brad460 wrote:

Sounds like you’ve concluded Marvin will never win a title...

He probably won’t.

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6/8/2019 7:42 AM

Yogi was pretty damn good for a long time.

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6/8/2019 7:50 AM

Windham over Bradshaw for sure. Old boys always lookin through their rose colored glasses when they talk about Bradshaw. K dub has a lot more mx wins than him and one less Sx win. K dub won a 250 sx main while still racing 125s. He was a complete badass somehow is often overlooked.

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6/8/2019 8:01 AM

Pastranas up there also in my book. He had speed and talent in excess of everyone he lined up with. The health, base and training time was lacking due to injury after injury though.

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6/8/2019 8:32 AM

I always thought about Musquin as being the new Bradshaw.
laughing

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6/8/2019 10:20 AM
Edited Date/Time: 6/8/2019 10:22 AM

Ray_MXS wrote:

For sure.

Josh Coppins in the GPs without a doubt.

Felt gutted for him that his title was taken from him by a damaged brake hose. A small consolation I suppose is that he stopped Everts getting a season of overalls.

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6/8/2019 10:29 AM

Allesi

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6/8/2019 10:38 AM
Edited Date/Time: 6/8/2019 10:42 AM

Some things to consider:

* Despite his age, Marvin Musquin (b. 12/30/1989) has only been in the premier class since 2016! Though they are younger, all of his main competitors save Cooper Webb have been on a 450 longer (Barcia: 2013, Tomac: 2014, Roczen: 2014, Anderson: 2015), etc. So despite all the blather about "old washed up Marv," he's practically a rookie compared with the competition. Zach Osborne is the only exception, being the same age as Musquin yet a 2019 450 rookie!

Because all were born within literally WEEKS of each other, we can conveniently compare Musquin's career arc to that of his former RBKTM teammates Ryan Dungey (b. 12/4/1989) and Broc Tickle (b. 11/23/1989):

Dungey famously graduated to a rookie 450 championship in 2010. He retired in 2017, one year after Musquin graduated to the 450. Tickle far more reluctantly "pointed into" the premiere class in 2012 following his 2011 250W championship. So despite being almost perfect contemporaries of Musquin, both Tickle and Dungey average a 5 year jumpstart on him in the 450s. That's HUGE in MX career years, which can be measured like dog years.

* After the customary rocky rookie season, Musquin's ascendancy has been phoenix-like. He truly blasted on the scene in 2017, in which he snagged many SX podiums and 2 wins (3 if you count East Rutherford, LOL). He has been a consistent win/podium threat since.

* Marvin's main Achilles heels have been injuries and poorly-timed mistakes/bad luck. If not for those things, I FIRMLY believe he would have a championship or two under his belt already. He is consistent as all hell, and when 100% healthy/prepped, a serious threat.

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BT20 👉 02/20/20 👉#TICKLETIMEBITCHES

6/8/2019 11:01 AM

Brad460 wrote:

Sounds like you’ve concluded Marvin will never win a title...

agn5009 wrote:

He probably won’t.

He “probably” won’t? So you can’t even make a definitive prediction..just a half assed one..

Here we are talking about Marvin being the best to never win a title the day after he signs a contract extension..pinch

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6/8/2019 11:23 AM

Of course he won't.
tongue

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6/8/2019 11:50 AM

Asselstine wrote:

Windham over Bradshaw for sure. Old boys always lookin through their rose colored glasses when they talk about Bradshaw. K dub ...more

For me I actually never watched Bradshaw in his peak I was todler. I found out about him through videos and he was head and shoulders better than Windahm indoors, outdoors they were probably close. Both were headcases, Windham won as an active 125 rider sure but Bradshaw dominated his first starts on a 250 and the race he crashed out of he was leading and he was 18 at the oldest. I am a huge Windham Fan, he was my guy after Emig retired but peak Bradshaw did things to his competition that few have when he was on. If your thinking about length of a career Windham has him beat, if your thinking peak speed no one is close to Bradshaw for not winning a title. Red Bud 92 sadly was the end of Damon “Fucking” Bradshaw, after than crash and then the LA melt down he was never the same.

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6/8/2019 11:55 AM
Edited Date/Time: 6/8/2019 11:57 AM

freebroctickle wrote:

Some things to consider:

* Despite his age, Marvin Musquin (b. 12/30/1989) has only been in the premier class since 2016! ...more

"Poorly-timed mistakes" or mistakes made when the pressure of winning a title is on? In my opinion it's the latter. Like clockwork something always seems to happen to Marv when he appears to be in a good position to go after the title, I don't think it's a coincidence.

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6/8/2019 12:17 PM

jorgechavez wrote:

"Poorly-timed mistakes" or mistakes made when the pressure of winning a title is on? In my opinion it's the latter. Like ...more

Well, that's exactly what I meant, actually. He needs to straighten that shit out, no question.

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BT20 👉 02/20/20 👉#TICKLETIMEBITCHES

6/8/2019 12:33 PM

Good analogy. I still give the edge to Windham, but Marvin has a few seasons left to solidify his place.
As for Windham, I think I tallied up the times he was runner-up to RC, and it was something like 6 or 7 big-bike titles he'd have had if it weren't for the GOAT. Kinda sucks for #14 that he competed when he did.

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Braaapin' aint easy.

6/8/2019 12:49 PM

Ray_MXS wrote:

For sure.

Josh Coppins in the GPs without a doubt.

Andy_Greenney wrote:

Felt gutted for him that his title was taken from him by a damaged brake hose. A small consolation I suppose is that he ...more

Desertmartin NI, if I remember correctly

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6/8/2019 1:05 PM

Agree. Bradshaw was like RC on a good day, with bad days worse than Tomac’s bad days.

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6/8/2019 1:11 PM
Edited Date/Time: 6/8/2019 1:19 PM

Falcon wrote:

Good analogy. I still give the edge to Windham, but Marvin has a few seasons left to solidify his place.
As for Windham, I ...more

Actually, not only is it a terrible analogy, it's bonkers-fucking-INSANE to compare the trajectory of a 15+-year premiere class career to that of a 3 year one. Like "check the carbon monoxide levels in your home, STAT" levels of insane.

The only thing the argument hinges on is age. If you absolutely insist on comparing the two riders, considering KDub hung it up at 34, that gives Marvin, at 29, a good 5 more years.

There is absolutely no question that the heat is on Marvin for the next few years. And absolutely no question the window is narrowing on his championship chances. But it is FAR too soon to whip out the KDub comparisons.

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BT20 👉 02/20/20 👉#TICKLETIMEBITCHES